Champcar-Brands RUINED!

[Maisie]

Having been to Brands last week, I can say from a photographer's point of view that the fencing is a pain in the butt - however, there areplaces where you can take unobstructed pictures due to the nature of the circuits's geography, and it definitely won't be a problem if you're up in a grandstand. From a spectator's point of view, you can see perfectly well through the fencing - the main problem for me was not so much the fencing but the huge advertising boards.

I certainly don't think there will be riots - there's no need to over-react! I'd say that watching from somewhere between Paddock and Druids is about the same as watching from the outside at Copse at Silverstone, for example.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Rob29
Oh.so us spectators don't matter? If we can't see the circuit through two layers of catch fencing,I would say it was pretty well ruined.

Did I say spectators don't matter? Just stop & think - why is catch fencing deemed necessary?

Got it yet........

To protect the spectators!!!!

Circuit owners, race organisers, governing bodies, etc., have a duty of care towards their customers. They are doing what they feel is necessary to minimise the risk of spectator injuries; whether, in this instance, catch fencing is necessary is a moot point. Yes, catch fencing, along with many other safety measures, does inconvenience the very people it's there to protect; if those inconveniences are necessary to ensure the continued operation of the circuit, it's a small price to pay.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
That's a big steaming load Dave. There'd be no professional motorsport without the fans. Without the fans, there'd be no sponsors, and that means _no_ money for circuit improvements!

Ignoring your offensive comment, see my reply to Rob.

Safety can't stand still? Those are the words of a zealot. Should all circuits be reduced to the style of Magny Cours to satisfy you? But zealots _can't_ be satisfied, and if they get their way, there won't be a hard surface within 3 miles of a race car at any point during a GP!

Is zealot meant as a pejorative? Should a known hazard be ignored? I know, let's stop waving those silly yellow flags just because sombody's crashed.....spoils the racing, doesn't it?

We haven't had risk levels like those you point to since the late '70s!

Can you see the irony in that statement?

And I say that if 1 in 200 or 300 crashes results in a serious injury, that's a risk I'm personally willing to take.

But you're not taking the risk personally, are you? You're just willing to let others take the risk.

[Rob29]

You miss my point Dave,there are hardly any spectators to protect now.If conditions get any worse there will be none.Ways will have to found to make the sport more attractive,like getting rid of wings & wide tyres.I don't remember any serious accidents at Crystal Palace in 20 years-THAT was a spectator circuit. I may have more problem than the average person with this as I can only see in 2D anyway,but a clear view of the action is not unreasonable?

[Stephen Green]

Rob,

As others writers have said, times change my friend. I think you are mixing safety with 'the show'. Many of us would agree that motor racing needs to do something to entice more spectators to the tracks, but this will not and must not be done at the cost of safety. We live (sadly) in an age of law suits and counter law suits.

May I suggest that when you next visit a circuit that you purchase a grandstand seat in order to help overcome your hindered eyesight?

[Jay]

For the big deal you guys make, probably most of the spectators won't even have to look through the second layer of catch fencing as they'll be watching from a grandstand. And if you're used to viewing racing at modern racing circuits, then you're probably pretty used to staring through a bit of catch fencing, so I don't see what the big deal is.

It's funny, I've never heard anyone say they weren't going to attend a North American street race (or road race for that matter) because they knew that they'd be looking through two layers of fence unless they were in a grandstand. The only people that might want to complain are the photos who probably only have a few holes to deal with.

As much as you guys might not like the new safety feature when you're watching the race on TV. When you are actually standing behind a barrier, watching the race, you're f*ing glad for that catch fencing..especially when the Formula Ford boys hit the track..lol.

[Stephen Green]

Couldn't agree more Jay! In our case it will be the Renault Clios as well....

[Rob29]

Think we have accepted that the fencing in necessary for champcars. What we are worried about is that our circuit is ruined for the rest of the year when the stands are taken down.For the last 2 yrs or so there has been just one cold windy open structure at Paddock bend.

[Stephen Green]

I think I mentioned earlier Bob that as far as we know the fencing is there for 5 years, the length of the CART contract. The issue of safety in respect of how the fencing is attached to the armco posts could lead to it being taken down before then. That though is a matter for the safety officer and the MSA who grant the track licence.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Ignoring your offensive comment, see my reply to Rob.

As though your blatant disregard for fans isn't offensive.

Is zealot meant as a pejorative? Should a known hazard be ignored? I know, let's stop waving those silly yellow flags just because sombody's crashed.....spoils the racing, doesn't it?

Hell yes it's meant as perjorative! Because zealots can't be reasoned with. And that's what needed: Reason. No one agenda can dictate the evolution of motorsport. Safety must be balanced equally against all other factors!

And only a damn zealot would say that the removal of Auschwitz-style fencing around a beautiful circuit would somehow dictate the removal of ALL BASIC RULES!

Can you see the irony in that statement?

What, because Stewart and Lauda's whining got the two best tracks thrown off the GP calendar?

The record changed because the _cars_ got safer, with monocoques replacing steel and magnesium tube frames. Full-face helmets and better multi-layer Nomex suits, gloves, boots and baclavas appeared. And those are things that don't radically change the face of the sport, since safety gear and cars are retired annually.

But you're not taking the risk personally, are you? You're just willing to let others take the risk.

Oh, I'd take the risk in a heartbeat if I had the means!

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Did I say spectators don't matter? Just stop & think - why is catch fencing deemed necessary?

Got it yet........

To protect the spectators!!!!

The fencing is in places spectators don't even go! There were no fans hurt at the '86 GP, no fans hurt when F3000 was there, no fans hurt during the BTCC races. Your argument is ****, Dave. The fencing's an unnecessary expense and an eyesore. Brands would do much better to build another grandstand to provide proper views for the spectators!

[Stephen Green]

Let me say that there are precious few places the fans don't go at Brands so your arguement is somewhat flawed. In answer to your remark about granstands, there were at least three extra granstands being build when I was at Brands three weeks ago!

I'm afraid we have to consider spectator safety as much, if not more than drivers safety these days. You don't take them into account and you're goung to get your pretty little backside sued from here to eternity.

[Jay]

I'd say spectator safety is most important...much better a flying wheel bounce back onto the track than into a packed grandstand. Imagine the lawsuits! Everyone says they know the risks and accept them...until it actually happens.

[Maisie]

I still don't understand the rabid howling coming from people who haven't even been to Brands complaining that the circuit has been ruined.

It is really NOT that bad - as you would know from my previous comment from the point of view of someone who has actually been there, had you not all been too busy screaming at each other and having an argument irrelevant to the topic at hand to bother reading it.

[Dave Brand]

Well, that stirred up a hornet's nest, didn't it!

Sadly, the people who have poured vitriol on me for having the audacity to express what is, I hope, an informed opinion, have chosen to read into my posts meanings which fit their own agenda rather than read what I actually said.


This whole thing is a very emotive issue; the basic problem, as I see it, is that people just don't like change. Whether we like it or not, safety is a big issue in motor sport. Some of the steps taken to improve safety will inconvenience the very people they are designed to protect. If we don't 'ruin' some of our historical circuits by improving safety all round, for competitors, marshals, photographers, spectators, everybody concerned, all we will have left is history - there will be no circuits.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta

Oh, I'd take the risk in a heartbeat if I had the means!

http://www.marshalspost.com/clubs.php

Choose the marshals club that is best suited to your needs. There are a couple of Canadian and US ones listed.

Unless you're only prepared to take the risk if you're driving?

Also, if you're so interested in motorsport, you might want to consider your position on the way you talk to marshals. Because without our unpaid contribution to motorsport, you wouldn't be able to see anything - there wouldn't be anything there.

If you want to contribute to motorsport safety in a constructive way, join a marshals club. I guarantee you a better view - you just have to earn it.

[Snapper Baz]

With hundreds of marshals/photographers all arround the circuit...I honestly hope that the new fencing doesn't fall over like it did the other week at Brands (when a BMW hit the barrier) otherwise somebody might get injured and not the driver! I shall be there for a few hours Friday before I do the school run in the afternoon...hope you all have a great and safe day on Saturday while I take pictures at a family wedding....yawn!

[pauldavid]

It would seem that my earlier comments have rather gone over the top of many peoples heads, as all the responses seem to be based around Indy Racing. My point was that the only reason that the changes were made is for one weekends racing.For those of us who go every weekend Yes even the small club meetings, i am sorry but in my opinion Brands is Buggered, and yes i have been there, Snapper baz has it summed up about right, and as for you stephen i knew that you would jump to the circuits defence, hidding behind the "safety" issue. Brands is safe for spectators, so please no "Bull#### about crowd safety. I believe in making a stand not just talk, so i will not be going to Brands every week now only the smaller bike meetings. May i thank the owners of Brands for doing exactlly what you were all complaing about during the war on Iraq, doing something just to please the Americans, spot the link America wants something, we say Yes. so thanks Indy racing league or whoever runs it for ruining one of the finest tracks in europe.

[Chigley]

OK I expect this is going to be the same as pouring cold water on very hot oil. Stands by for the fallout.

A while ago I seem to remember great delight expressed at Brands' coup at inheriting the Champcar race from Rockingham. Now that the reality of what is required is apparent that delight appears to have diminished somewhat, (something to do with debris fencing)??

It's a stated fact that I am not a Brands' fan, I love Champcars but because it is at Brands is the reason I'm not attending, and also as I am more than happy when I'm at Rockingham this is going to be a wee bit biased.

As Brands' fans are unhappy with what they are going to have to endure to watch Champcar; and the fact that Rockingham has all the facilities that any fan could wish for; plus the bonus of not having to look through debris fencing as almost all the spectating areas are above the fence level and the photog's have cutouts all round the circuit to take unhindered shots. How about this for a scenario. Brands' removes all of its unsightly Champcar debris fencing and returns to what it is best at, i.e. being a good clubbie circuit(s). In return it assists Rockingham with the finances to host what Rockingham is best at, i.e. 220mph+ average laps of balls out Oval racing which is what Champcars are designed for, not doing mere 110mph laps round a short tight track with a narrow, and its going to be congested, pitlane.

Just a thought, any takers??

[Elio]

This seems to be getting all rather unpleasant!!

The situation is really rather clear to me.

Brands is safe for all forms of motorsport at present. It was equally as safe this time last year when Brands CART hadn`t been thought of. It was equally as safe in the very early nineties when the current safety fencing went up.

A certain championship requires an already safe circuit to take on additional safety measures if it wants one of its races. OK, fair enough - it`s not ideal but hey, I`d rather like to see Champcar around my beloved Brands so lets endure it.

Race runs. Spectators go home. Additional measures (which I KNOW were pretty easy to put up) come down until next year.

The only potential problem is that Octagon/Brands Hatch Circuits or whoever they call themselves may well be too damn tight-fisted to take these measures away afterwards.

If this is indeed the case then pauldavid you are indeed correct in what you say.

[Woolley]

Have to agree with you there - I'm looking forward to the event, but they're going to seem ever so slow after last year.

Personaly, I hate debris fencing, as I'm usually in front of it, painfully aware that it will keep the accident my side, reducing my escape opportunities. That said, anyone who's against it needs only to watch Le Mans, or remember that people died at a Champ Car race because a wheel went over the fence. Just imagine if it had been a whole car. There wouldn't be any more racing to watch after that.

[Chigley]

I agree about the wisdom of debris fencing and staying behind it. Those that were at The Rock last year will remember Shinji Nakano's Turn 4 accident. I was unfortunate enough to in the vicinity and was showered with debris despite observing the the Golden Rule of duck and head for the safety of the base of the wall. A small piece nicked my face, but, without the debris fencing God only knows how much else would have come over the wall. Remember at Champcar speeds you don't have time to blink before an accident has started and finished, that debris fencing is essential! Would anyone prefer to be eating car parts rather than watching through debris fencing.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
http://www.marshalspost.com/clubs.php

Choose the marshals club that is best suited to your needs. There are a couple of Canadian and US ones listed.

Unless you're only prepared to take the risk if you're driving?

Actually, yes. Not marshalling, for me, is not about risk... It's about having the most fun with the meager time and money I have at my disposal. The times I've been trackside (doing video recording) I just haven't enjoyed it.

And let's be honest, who'd want to hear me griping through a whole race meeting?

pauldavid, thank you for stating the facts as they stand.

[Crash Test]

I don't know what sort of catch fencing at speedways over in the UK have, but down here, the local track has at least three layer fencing, and they still pack the place out. It's not like all of the spectators are blindfolfed and stuffed in a dark room out the back- you can still see what is going on...

The fences falling over with a Beemer hitting them? Scary stuff... Probably the only experience I've had with catch fencing at permanent tracks (as opposed to street circuits, it that they are errected probably 1m back from the armco barriers/walls. If the wall moves, it doesn't hit the catch fencing, and the distance isn't so great that the marshall's can't be half a step away from being behind it (normally they cut a reasonable hole in it, or put the marshalls at the end of it. Surely a little bit of common sense comes into it? But I suppose time/money constraints come into it...

Baz, Maisie et al- I'm not sure what you guys pack in your kick, but I tend to take everything (including the kitchen sink). I've probably lost count of the number of times my trusty old swiss army knife has been used to unscrew spoilers off cars being put on a flat bed... I always carry a sturdy pair of scissors, and I never knew why (there was obviously a reason one day, but it has been long forgotten). However, it all made sense at the CART round last year, when one of the prime photo holes last year was wrecked by a heap of zip ties handing down from a hoarding a top of the photo hole. Snip snip, and everyone could use the area. Don't forget that CART has a fair few of their own travelling circus photographers, so it will probably compound the bun fight a bit.

Anyhow, have a top weekend ya'll

[Stephen Green]

Let me make one thing VERY clear. I am not jumping to the defence of Brands Hatch or any other circuit, merely stating my point regarding safety issues. I'll say no more on the topic now for fear of attacking the poster rather then the post!