Hans Question

[Teletubby]

As Flagwaver said, in a purely sideways shunt (such as a t-bone) then the protection offered by the HANS is not huge. In the case of straight-on, oblique or rotational accidents then the HANS may well save your life especially if used in conjunction with a seat with lateral head support (ears). Even in a backwards shunt there is some benefit to the HANS, whilst the brunt of the initial impact is taken by the seat, the 'reverse whiplash' that occurs as a result is minimsed by the HANS.

[greenamex2]

Never thought about 'reverse whiplash'. Another justification for spending over one thousand pounds on 50 quids worth of carbon fibre, a couple of quids worth of turned metal and some nylon strap!

And a helmet I didn't need and moving my harness mounting points and possibly a new seat etc etc etc.

Some enterprising person really needs to look at the patent for the hans device and come up with an alternative. There is money to be made!

[Seoigh]

...and to think, ALL of this HANS popularity began with a simple and stupid NASCAR fatality. Lest we forget, the death in question occurred exactly FIVE YEARS AGO this week...while Dale Earnhardt was (not) 'gettin' it done' on the last lap of the Daytona 500. 'Still win a lot of bar bets by knowing the last race he WON was the 2000 Rolex 24 GT divisiion, though.

[ss_collins]

Can anyone show clear and independent research on HANS effects in frontal or side impacts? What abouth the increase in brain to skull injuries?

There were alternatives to hans - what became of them?

there is a piece on rally car side impact in Febs Racecar - relevant to racing too

[1200Datto27]

Sam,

You seem to have a beef against the HANS device, any reason why?

[ss_collins]

for the reason above - its being forced into the sport without proper research as far as I can see. Theres a lots of bull talked about it, which is why more people have been 'saved' by it than were ever killed by BSF which is what it is meant to prevent. All I want to see is clear unbiased research into the usage and effects of the thing. I suspect that we will never see this as it will be expensive and some would say pointless.

[Al Weyman]

So just tell I know I have asked several times, why can't two small straps come off the seat belts and hook onto the helmet, if they were fitted to the belts as they cross your shoulders then attached to the Hans type studs in the helmet with a simple keyhole slot for quick release in an emergency surely they would have virtually the same effect as Hans and cost peanuts? At the end of the day the object of the excercise is to keep your head in relationship to the belts that are arresting your travel into the windscreen, I can't see why this would not work and at least would be a cost effective alternative. Anyone wanna patent it with me?:-)

[Walshy]

And it works AL.

The F1 drivers used to use something similar to keep there heads up in high G corners. Just a simple strap from there shoulder to the side of the helmet on a "D"-Ring.

[1200Datto27]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

So just tell I know I have asked several times, why can't two small straps come off the seat belts and hook onto the helmet, if they were fitted to the belts as they cross your shoulders then attached to the Hans type studs in the helmet with a simple keyhole slot for quick release in an emergency surely they would have virtually the same effect as Hans and cost peanuts? At the end of the day the object of the excercise is to keep your head in relationship to the belts that are arresting your travel into the windscreen, I can't see why this would not work and at least would be a cost effective alternative. Anyone wanna patent it with me?:-)

I think that it's because the HANS device is designed to move with your body, and at the same rate, therefore keeping the head and neck protected. It also transfers the shock loading of the helmet over a larger area.

[Suze]

Yes but it doesn't move with *all* of your body - whilst it stops the head and neck moving, it does nothing to stop the brain - the damage that can be done by the insides of your body continuing to move are immense

[carsten.meurer]

rather than doubting that hans can do good in cars that are designed for its use ( f1, indy and nascar, junior formulas like bmw or renault ), i would like
to see some research that it doesn't likely harm me in the old sheds i race !

my ff89 reynard does not have a seat and belt mounting points that suit the
hans ! it has no massive carbon roll hub and side protection !
if i am upside down, i need every inch of headroom i can get by putting the head in any upwards direction !

if in cars like this ( and many others ! ) the seat is not perfectly adopted for hans, what happens in a rearward impact ?
is the device maiybe in a position to harm the spine, because the edge of the carbon structure is crashing on a bone ?

is a not perfectly positioned seatbelt ( in which old car would it work ? )
going to fullfill its duty of holding me in place on one of the usual minor to mmedium offs, or am i likely to miss theire protection on a possible second impact ?
there is a good reason why modern cockpits are more spaceious !
you need room to make the device work !


i am more worried about no one being able to proof that its not going to harm me, than to aid me !
and would all of you really want to weld and cut on your cars to change roll hubs, belt mounts and all ?


al, i think your belt attached version would not work !
main thing is driver needs to be able to exit the car as fast as possible !
if the straps are attached to the belt in a way the work, you need to detach them before getting out ! takes too long...
if you can go out quick, because thhey 'fall' off the belt, they move in the impact too and are useless !

[Al Weyman]

I am sure a quickly detaching devise to pull the staps off the helmets studs would be very easy to design.

[Eddy V]

Hans isn't a bad thing. But like Carsten wrote, it is designed to work with modern cars and modern seats. Or cars that have cockpits that are designed around the system (big single seaters, sportscars,...).

They'll probably never design a proper working system.
They could even build seats with the straps attached to the seat, but how do you get them off your helmet fast enough, when you need to vacate the car fast?

Hans wouldn't be such an issue if it was only lots cheaper.
Like I mentioned before, why should FIA and the manufacturers bother?

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Eddy V

They could even build seats with the straps attached to the seat, but how do you get them off your helmet fast enough, when you need to vacate the car fast?

You use a quick release catch on each of the helmet theather anchors which are attached to a loop around your main harness buckle. When you yank the harness it releases the teathers at the same time. It's a system I tried in the US. I worried at first about how reliable the release would be, then decided that it should be no less reliable than my main harness buckle. Personally I prefer it to the HANS system.

[Al Weyman]

Surely a quick release catch like a small version of the seat belt catch could be design to detach the helmet straps. The few seconds that would take I would recon at least in my case would still be quicker than struggling getting out with the unwieldly looking Hans device.

We cross posted Dtype, great minds eh?

[Eddy V]

How come we all know these options, but not the people who should be making / testing them?

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

We cross posted Dtype, great minds eh?

Thank you Al, but perhaps we shouldn't let anyone finish that saying

Originally Posted by Eddy V

How come we all know these options, but not the people who should be making / testing them?

I would be extremely surprised if these options weren't indeed known to all relevent parties. For whatever reason: vested interests, inside knowledge, sales revenue, homologation, perhaps even actual test data, the FIA have opted for HANS. I would, however, be interested in the conversation with the scrutineer if someone turned up with one of the seat/cage anchored systems, particularly if they produced supporting evidence of equivalence to the HANS. If it was rejected, I wonder if that would breach EC Anti-Competition Rules?

[carsten.meurer]

i am sure quite a few cheques have been written in the process to get
hans to where it is today, whos amount would keep the bigger part of the forum race for quite a long time...

guess who will need to fill the pockets that where emptied again !

is there some way around it with a medical testing that shows you cannot
use it ?
what happens to cars that can not be converted to be used with hans ?

a lot of historic cars should loose real life value if altered accordingly !?

[flagwaver]

One of the reasons the HANS cost so much is all the cost done in research. What you all seem to want is more research, whilst not entirely disagreeing with the need for more research. I would like to know who do you think will fund it?
Before you answer this,please think about what would be needed, extensive tests on all your various types of cars at various angles, various speeds etc. As some of you seem so concerned maybe you would like to donate your own cars for this destructive testing.
Let us be clear the HANS will not protect you in every situation, then again nor will your helmet, harness, roll cage, seat etc. And yes like all of the above in certain situations may even make injuries worse.

[flagwaver]

As for the third part of the impact, the stretching of the tethers & the seat belts wilst not elimanating this will help to reduce it

(first part of a impact car hits object, second part, car hits you, third part, your inners hit your outers Brain to inside of skull, heart & lungs etc into ribs)

That is the main reason why you can't jus attach straps from your helmet to your seat. It may well stop BSI if your harness is done up tight enough (remember harnesses are designed to stretch for that reason (that is the reason you should replace them after a shunt)) but may well splatter your brain inside your skull.

[ss_collins]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

I would like to know who do you think will fund it?

this one reason why I feel that the FIA institute system is fundamentally flawed, unless you are willing to pay the (non returnable) £10,000 to have it considered you have no chance of even getting a look in.

So yes I am against any wider usage of HANS, it does what it is designed to do in a certain type of shunt. But that as I see is all - and it can worsen some situations. I refuse to wear one.

[carsten.meurer]

me too looks for every possible way round wearing a hans !

for one cause its hard enough to fit me fat body into the tight single seaters
without one ( seriously running out of space round the shoulders ! ),
secondly for the fears i mentioned in previous posts !

i have made my mind up, counting in all the pros and cons of the subject !

fia is right in forcing every series that gets established to build cockpits
round the device, and on pro levels, and especially with fast, race spec
cars ( in my opinin there is no need for a hans in a toyota yaris on tilke tracks ! you run out of petrol before you hit anything... ).

leave alone the hobby racers, that race slow, outdated machine at mostly
below 100% of possible potential ! same for MOST of the historic cars !
after all deformable structures are different on those pre carbon cars !

do you fear for a BSF crashig a F5000 heavily, or for needing new legs ?


horses for courses...

personally i might be lucky !
i am karting since i am 11, and got a neck like a bull !
rarely ever after a heavy impact i got a stiff neck, and that includes stuffing a zetec head on in blank concrete at about 50-60 km/h !

so maybe you want to make those 'just become racer' drivers in slow tin tops
and single seaters train theire necks a bit as a precaution, rather than make
them spend a grand on a 'potentially' ( now enter word of choice! - )
helpful or dangerous device !

[RickP:Clio51]

Guys, I think it's pretty dangerous when people get on their high horses over safety devices... especially if those people ranting are doing so from a position of very little knowledge and I'm concerned that's what's going on here.

As I said the last time we had this debate I am in the fortunate position that I have raced both open and closed Le Mans cars in the LMES and closed saloons in the VLN with a HANS device on. I've also spent a number of days with one of the inventors, Jim Downing and have been able to see all the test and development data from one of the manufacturers of the HANS device.
I will also point out for the sake of honesty that my father-in-law is one of the manufacturers of the HANs device but I have no financial interest in promoting his company nor any connection with it, it's purely given me a insiders knowledge of the topic.

To answer the questions here to the best of my knowledge and debunk some of the rubbish.

1. It's not uncomfortable. You get used to it very quickly.
2. It doesn't restrict movement or vision.
3. It works because it stays on your shoulders as you stretch the belts in an impact and softens the de-celeration of the head relative to the spine. The heath-robinson ideas of strapping your head to the roll cage or even a specific point on the belts would both kill u very quickly.
4. Left on a shelf it will not deteriorate for 1000 years but clearly if it saves your life in an enormous impact, it might be worth replacing it?
5. We all know people who have had big impacts and walked away... it's the angle of the impact that is the killer, dead ahead is nowhere near as dangerous as a 45 degree one where HANS is the big life saver.
6. The reason the suppliers sell them is in the hope you will purchase a new helmet or set of harnesses to go with it. They make very little margin on the device as they are actually very complex to manufacture and it's a highly skilled process. So the cost is not going to come down massively at any point.
7. The inventors have invested an enormous amount of money in the testing and design process... they will take a very very long while to recoup that.
8. There have been some disgraceful actions by one company in particular telling clients that only they are certified to drill helmets, that they keep the "official" FIA log of helmets that have been modified and "the HANS is only valid with a set of our seatbelts" all total rubbish... I believe that there are some questions as to whether they are paying the royalties to the inventors, hence the new version with the lips on it is only available from Stand 21 and the HANS foundation but please don't hold me to that, it is only rumour but given their behaviour previously it wouldn't surprise me.
9. From the research videos I've seen the device significantly reduces my chance of chewing steering wheel. That works for me.
10. The cost is the same as a set of slicks for the average racer. Go without a set of slicks and don't die. It's a simple choice in my opinion. I know people who've been to funerals where the racer had made this choice, got it wrong and his widow and children were trying to work out why. If you can't afford a helmet and a fireproof suit, you don't go racing, it's harsh but it's simple, they are costs we all accept. The HANS should be the same.


Finally, we now laugh at people who think the World is flat and that not wearing seatbelts so you are thrown clear of the car is a good idea don't we?? Please?? Don't we???

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

5. We all know people who have had big impacts and walked away... it's the angle of the impact that is the killer, dead ahead is nowhere near as dangerous as a 45 degree one where HANS is the big life saver.

I thought dead ahead was what they are designed specifically for, how is 45 deg more dangerous? BTW 45 degree impact is one of my concerns I mentioned in an earlier post.

Originally Posted by RickP:Clio51

Finally, we now laugh at people who think the World is flat and that not wearing seatbelts so you are thrown clear of the car is a good idea don't we?? Please?? Don't we???

The world is flat, isn't it?

[Larry J-Croft]

Rick P - spoken like a true evangelist. I made a post at the start of this thread, saying I would get one if they weren't so expensive. I flatly do not believe that they need to be anything like as costly. You state:

'They make very little margin on the device as they are actually very complex to manufacture and it's a highly skilled process'.

I have worked in manufacturing, I am an aircraft engineer who has worked with carbon fibre companies over many years - if a HANS device costs more than £100 to manufacture and cannot be sold for less than £250 at a good profit, I will eat my crash helmet!!! (of course I have to buy another one those as well!!!!)