Is this now a dying championship?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

There was plenty of "talent" back in 2001. They might not be names you recognize or have come to know or think of as "talent" today, but there were some pretty good racers in that group.

The takeaway here though is that when we look at these "old" tapes we have to remember that no series, and certainly neither IRL/CC have remained "static" or faithful to any particular philosophy.

Your are absolutely correct.
IRL was never hurting for talent other than in the opinion of rag writers.

The only thing that CC had morfe of, was big money.

What has happened to open wheel shows the rewards of arrogance by the sanctions.
Bob

[Alex Toropov]

Originally Posted by luke

There was around the same talent as there was since the start of the series. Apart from a few drivers who were at the back in CART they were the leading drivers in the IRL. Other then that very thin talent up to when I said around 2002 definitely 2003 when you could say it was about even with CART at that point when some of the CART teams followed the engines on over as did the drivers...There was a few good racers, but just a few, the rest was lackluster talent. The IRL IMHO started to get credibility when this happened.

...only in the eyes of pro-F1 and pro-CART fans...

it's laughable and sad at the same time, when somebody with single-minded mentality measures all the things in the world by his own yardstick.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by luke

There was around the same talent as there was since the start of the series. Apart from a few drivers who were at the back in CART they were the leading drivers in the IRL. Other then that very thin talent up to when I said around 2002 definitely 2003 when you could say it was about even with CART at that point when some of the CART teams followed the engines on over as did the drivers...There was a few good racers, but just a few, the rest was lackluster talent. The IRL IMHO started to get credibility when this happened.

Its all very well saying they were good in their own right on the ovals but hey, the 2000 Indy 500, all the CART drivers filled up all the top places in qualifying I seem to remember and Montoya dominated the race...

But skill on ovals does matter in an oval series. In 1998 there was a young Tony Stewart driving in the IRL, who came from USAC. He doesn't register on the F1 radar, but he's proven to be a great oval racer (IRL/NASCAR champ). And in my opinion, if he was still in the IRL he would be competitive. Kasey Kahne could have been a great IRL racer. Jason Leffler. I could go on. Lots of non-road racing talent in the U.S. that doesn't deserve to get blown off because they lack road racing skill.

Another comment, sure, some of those CART guys have done well (in good equipment). While some of the U.S. oval racers have not done well (in lessor equipment). Big difference there.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Alex Toropov

...only in the eyes of pro-F1 and pro-CART fans...

it's laughable and sad at the same time, when somebody with single-minded mentality measures all the things in the world by his own yardstick.

Pro F1, Pro CART fans? Who do you think you are?

Single minded mentality?

Attack the post not the poster! Besides I'm neutral under all three categories.

I'm sorry if you can't see this, but you can not compare the old IRL Northern Lights series pre 2002ish to 1996 to the 1996 to 2002 CART grid.

CART Montoya, Franchitti, Tracy, Andretti, Moore, Vasser, Castroneves, de Ferran, Kanaan, al Unser Jr, Brack thick in talent all the way through the field.

IRL Ray, Dismore, Hamilton, Calkins, Scmidt, McGehee, Boat, Lazier, who?

I'm sorry its pretty obvious the IRL was more competitive 2003-2005 then pre 2001. Infact you can't compare it to the current grid.

[luke]

Originally Posted by jhansen

But skill on ovals does matter in an oval series. In 1998 there was a young Tony Stewart driving in the IRL, who came from USAC. He doesn't register on the F1 radar, but he's proven to be a great oval racer (IRL/NASCAR champ). And in my opinion, if he was still in the IRL he would be competitive. Kasey Kahne could have been a great IRL racer. Jason Leffler. I could go on. Lots of non-road racing talent in the U.S. that doesn't deserve to get blown off because they lack road racing skill.

Another comment, sure, some of those CART guys have done well (in good equipment). While some of the U.S. oval racers have not done well (in lessor equipment). Big difference there.

Stewart and many other now NASCAR drivers who were previously in the IRL are not bad drivers on the oval at all, some great oval NASCAR drivers, but looking at the 1996 Indy 500 grid, I'm sorry but you just could not compare it to the previous years in anyway. They were 7mph slower in the same equipment and that was the front runners...Surely you can see the IRL was not competitive last decade compared to recent years?

[Kieran20]

The IRL is dying, champ car has also not been in good shape, but they have a new car which will help, champ car is definally looknig better of the two. they are expaniding the championpship new car, new teams, more interest. IRL is the same as it has been for god knows how mnay year, with teamsd hjust dropping out because they cant afford to race.

I have followed both series, i personally am an F1 fan, i like champ car and The IRL but im not convined by the irl anymore. i just dont see it happeing.

if the IRL didnt have the indy 500, the series would have been dead a long time ago imo

[luke]

Originally Posted by stradlin21

and i'll think you'll find that a certain Buddy Lazier finished second that year, beat all the other CART drivers and ran JPM very close

JPM was in at Ganassi, loads of cash

Lazier was at Hemelgarn - Not much cash

a fine effort from Buddy

people tend to forget all those facts about that years race

Buddy was the the 2000 champion? Back runner in CART front runner in IRL? Now he isn't competitive but he was quite good back then, and obviously did well under the circumstances that year at Indy compared to what Montoya had. As for the beat all the other CART drivers, I haven't seen the race for a while but I seem to remember there was atrition up front...

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by luke

Buddy was the the 2000 champion? Back runner in CART front runner in IRL? Now he isn't competitive but he was quite good back then, and obviously did well under the circumstances that year at Indy compared to what Montoya had. As for the beat all the other CART drivers, I haven't seen the race for a while but I seem to remember there was atrition up front...

Lazier isn't competitive anymore? List his "competitive" rides of the last five years. Come on Luke, the car/team is part of the equation.

[luke]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Lazier isn't competitive anymore? List his "competitive" rides of the last five years. Come on Luke, the car/team is part of the equation.

Well like I said he isn't competitive anymore, and like you said he isn't in a good team anymore, but lets remember he has still been in the same sort of teams but better teams and better drivers had moved into the series, hence he was no longer competitive as he once was.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by luke

Stewart and many other now NASCAR drivers who were previously in the IRL are not bad drivers on the oval at all, some great oval NASCAR drivers, but looking at the 1996 Indy 500 grid, I'm sorry but you just could not compare it to the previous years in anyway. They were 7mph slower in the same equipment and that was the front runners...Surely you can see the IRL was not competitive last decade compared to recent years?

Make no mistake about it, luke...

Tony Stewart can drive anything on four wheels and drive it very fast....

He also is quite good at road course racing....watch him the Rolex 24 at Daytona this weekend...

A couple of years ago in the Rolex 24, he had a broken rear suspension that put the car on three wheels for the final hours of the race and he still drove it at race pace and led the event until the car finally broke down completely and put him into the wall...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by luke

Stewart and many other now NASCAR drivers who were previously in the IRL are not bad drivers on the oval at all, some great oval NASCAR drivers, but looking at the 1996 Indy 500 grid, I'm sorry but you just could not compare it to the previous years in anyway. They were 7mph slower in the same equipment and that was the front runners...Surely you can see the IRL was not competitive last decade compared to recent years?

Are you dyslexic?

Go check the stats on the '96 Indy, it is the record year that most likely will never be broken.

Indy 1996 pole Brayton: 233.7
Indy 1995 pole Brayton 231.6

Hmmm, 231 minus 7 equals 224, oh yeh 233 and 224 they are the same.

Sorry to be so sarcastic but please check your facts first.
Bob

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Make no mistake about it, luke...

Tony Stewart can drive anything on four wheels and drive it very fast....

He also is quite good at road course racing....watch him the Rolex 24 at Daytona this weekend...

A couple of years ago in the Rolex 24, he had a broken rear suspension that put the car on three wheels for the final hours of the race and he still drove it at race pace and led the event until the car finally broke down completely and put him into the wall...

Roger that Tim. I'll never forget his short track debut in a supermodified at Madera, CA in 1998. He flew in from Fontana for the race. The car was set up for him by another driver, as Tony missed practice. He ran four practice laps. Then he came out for qualifying and set pole and was the closest I had ever seen anyone get to the lap record, which was near impossible to beat because of a rules change. The guy can drive, period. Along with numerous other grass roots drivers.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Are you dyslexic?

Go check the stats on the '96 Indy, it is the record year that most likely will never be broken.

Indy 1996 pole Brayton: 233.7
Indy 1995 pole Brayton 231.6

Hmmm, 231 minus 7 equals 224, oh yeh 233 and 224 they are the same.

Sorry to be so sarcastic but please check your facts first.
Bob

If that was the times then my bad, but I was certain it was 7mph difference...

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Kieran20

champ car is definally looknig better of the two. more interest.

Now that is what you call see the world through rose colored glasses.

George is killing the IRL, and worst INDY, but even at most CC boards, they see that CC is just as sick and going nowhere.
More interest, by whom?

Open wheel will be dead in a few years if something is not done.
INDY can survive as an outlaw race, but then George is amazing in making a sow's ear, out of a silk purse.
Bob

[luke]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Now that is what you call see the world through rose colored glasses.

George is killing the IRL, and worst INDY, but even at most CC boards, they see that CC is just as sick and going nowhere.
More interest, by whom?

Open wheel will be dead in a few years if something is not done.
INDY can survive as an outlaw race, but then George is amazing in making a sow's ear, out of a silk purse.
Bob

Kieran is referring to the teams and drivers interested and joining Champ car this year. The only thing that seems different to me about the IRL is the new fuel and many more road courses.
Like I said before if the IRL wants to have more attraction which Champ Car has improved, then it will need a new car etc IMO.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by luke

Kieran is referring to the teams and drivers interested and joining Champ car this year. The only thing that seems different to me about the IRL is the new fuel and many more road courses.
Like I said before if the IRL wants to have more attraction which Champ Car has improved, then it will need a new car etc IMO.

Again with the new car. I don't buy it. It takes a lot more than that. A new car may be a short term shot in the arm for CCWS, but it takes much more to build a series. I say the car matters little, in a one make single seater series. It will take more than that to right the IRL's ship. Ditto for CCWS.

[luke]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Again with the new car. I don't buy it. It takes a lot more than that. A new car may be a short term shot in the arm for CCWS, but it takes much more to build a series. I say the car matters little, in a one make single seater series. It will take more than that to right the IRL's ship. Ditto for CCWS.

What do you mean write the ir's ship? Your saying that as if Champ Car wants to kill the IRL.

Its not just the car, if you follow Champ Car, you'd see the improvements the series has been making since 2004.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by luke

What do you mean write the ir's ship? Your saying that as if Champ Car wants to kill the IRL.

Its not just the car, if you follow Champ Car, you'd see the improvements the series has been making since 2004.

No, I'm not saying that CCWS is trying to kill the IRL. Not saying that at all. I'm saying that the addition of a new car would not solve the IRL's problems. So if the IRL's "ship" is in trouble, then it needs to be righted. Simple metaphore really.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by luke

What do you mean write the ir's ship? Your saying that as if Champ Car wants to kill the IRL.

Its not just the car, if you follow Champ Car, you'd see the improvements the series has been making since 2004.

It is a spec. car whether old or new, if that impresses people, their expectations are might low.
Ditto for the engine.

As long as they are glorified Formula X, Y or Z, they are no more interesting than any low class SCCA spec. formula; until the sanctions learn that, the boat will keep sinking.
Bob

[stradlin21]

Originally Posted by luke

Buddy was the the 2000 champion? Back runner in CART front runner in IRL? Now he isn't competitive but he was quite good back then, and obviously did well under the circumstances that year at Indy compared to what Montoya had. As for the beat all the other CART drivers, I haven't seen the race for a while but I seem to remember there was atrition up front...

Lazier paid for his loyalty to Ron Hemelgarn and his team

his drive in the 500 in 2000 was class and shut up the critics who said he wasn't a worthy winner in 96

In 05 he got a good car, and despite being out of the IRL for the best part of 2 seasons, he claimed a top 5. mega underrated driver

[stradlin21]

have you noticed something here

the same champ car fan going on about the same old thing!, if you listened to him you'd think Champ Car was the most successful and biggest championship in the world!

we've heard it a million times before, your boring!

go and watch your Champ Car and enjoy it, leave the rest alone

[Tim Northcutt]

Pleaase remember to attack the content of the post...NOT the person who wrote the post.

[Raz0rRacing]

There are to many USA Open Wheeler series...

Personally I think they should just have:
Champ Car - F1 (Europe/World equivalent)
Atlantic Series - GP2 (Europe equivalent)

[stradlin21]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Roger that Tim. I'll never forget his short track debut in a supermodified at Madera, CA in 1998. He flew in from Fontana for the race. The car was set up for him by another driver, as Tony missed practice. He ran four practice laps. Then he came out for qualifying and set pole and was the closest I had ever seen anyone get to the lap record, which was near impossible to beat because of a rules change. The guy can drive, period. Along with numerous other grass roots drivers.

Stewart was gonna race in the 04 500 i think but couldn't seal a deal with Foyt

Robby Mcgehee ended up getting into to race because he would surely have been bumped off by Smoke

would have been good to see him in the race

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Raz0rRacing

There are to many USA Open Wheeler series...

Personally I think they should just have:
Champ Car - F1 (Europe/World equivalent)
Atlantic Series - GP2 (Europe equivalent)

Every U.S. of A. road racing based open wheel series, ever, has gone belly up.
USAC quit road racing in 1970, because too many tracks were losing money on it.
It is the lack of the old USAC Triple Crown, which DID very well, that hurts open wheel racing; besides the asinine rules.

If the IRL wants to be better known, they should head back down to Rafaela, and get some Argentine attention.
Then they would have two-thirds of a triple crown.
Bob