Acura/HPD's future plans

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

??? Lowe's.
ALMS P-2 championship/Le Mans P-2 winner and the continued sharp end of P-2. Unless Fernandez expects to be let in on the P-1 brigade next year. If not thats a pretty short relationship to have with a customer/partner.




L.P.

As I asked previously, why would Lowe's want to pay a figure likely closing in on $2 mil, to have their car race in France, in a race that will receive little coverage in North America. Is that good value in this economic environment? For that type of money, they could just about run a second car in the ALMS for the full season. Which would make more sense to Lowes?

[The Badger]

As far as I was aware , some work has already been done on the LMP2 , but was abandoned .

Wind tunnel wasnt used at all in the design of the LMP1 , so that can also apply to the LMP2 .

Lowes sponsored Fernandez at Le Mans in 2007 . Why not again ? If they have no market in Europe , why did they do it in 2007 ?

I am only suggesting that it is a possibility .

Why does Corvette race at Le Mans if what you say about coverage is true in North America ? I wouldnt think its about European sales either .

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Lowes sponsored Fernandez at Le Mans in 2007 . Why not again ? If they have no market in Europe , why did they do it in 2007 ?

I am only suggesting that it is a possibility .

Why does Corvette race at Le Mans if what you say about coverage is true in North America ? I wouldnt think its about European sales either .

Lowes paid a 1/3rd rental, on a car that was already in Europe. They did it in preparation of going in the future. Perhaps they will do so again, on a partial payment basis. That probably cost them in the neighbourhood of $200,000 - $300,000, a far cry from the budget needed to field a full entry, of a currently non-compliant car.

Yes, Corvette and GM sell cars in Europe. Yes, the North American customer base of Corvette is aware of it's LM adventures. This isn't your average demographic.

If the dollars are included in the overall years budget, I can see a Lowes sponsored car at LM in the future. However, that car will require substantial backing from Acura to do so, and will need to be competitive for overall victories.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by The Badger

As far as I was aware , some work has already been done on the LMP2 , but was abandoned .

Wind tunnel wasnt used at all in the design of the LMP1 , so that can also apply to the LMP2 .

Lowes sponsored Fernandez at Le Mans in 2007 . Why not again ? If they have no market in Europe , why did they do it in 2007 ?

I am only suggesting that it is a possibility .

Why does Corvette race at Le Mans if what you say about coverage is true in North America ? I wouldnt think its about European sales either .

For what it's worth, 15 days were spent at ARC in Indy. So it had some tunnel time. But many more fewer days than Audi or Peugeot. Wirth Research has turned a corner when it comes to CFD capacity and Wirth is rather coy about it all.

The ARX-02a wing would make a good starting point for the ARX-01b and be pretty relevant. But it would need to be optimized and then manufactured. All the work could be done via CFD considering all the LMP2 developments were done that way last year.

[pach233]

Mike, Just wondering how much more capable and advanced the CFD programs that Wirth use as compared to the basic flo works programs used in university. Interesting to see they are confident enough in the software to do so much of the development on it.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by pach233

Mike, Just wondering how much more capable and advanced the CFD programs that Wirth use as compared to the basic flo works programs used in university. Interesting to see they are confident enough in the software to do so much of the development on it.

I'm wondering the same thing too. Wirth wouldn't divulge anything. I think they use Fluent as a basis but have then evolved it internally. I'm still wondering about the whole thing anyway. Models certainly aren't cheap, don't get me wrong. But in any given 10 hour day you can run through 40+ iterations, each being run through the entire ride height map. And frankly there are ways to make low cost models. And you also have the benefit of having the model in front of you and you can get "physical" with it and make intuitive changes right on the spot. It's my opinion that CFD isn't very user friendly from that stand point. Kind of like a sculpture never touching their hands to the clay...I wouldn't underestimate the benefit of this. There are reasons Dome utilized a 25% scale model for the front end work on the S102. But...this is the wave of the future I think. Totally digitally designed cars. The first time the see the physical wind will be when they hit the track.

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Wirth Research has turned a corner when it comes to CFD capacity and Wirth is rather coy about it all.

Wonder if that capacity might have anything to do with the UK company Advantage CFD who were all the rage in the industry a few years ago until they stopped doing customer work and went full time on the Honda F1 project. Recent events must have changed that situation.
I agree with Mike that you just can't beat having a real model infront of you. That said though CFD is a useful tool and it improves constantly, the great leaps foward in processor power in the last decade have made it worth having. We did find it very helpful on our program when it came down to detail development for brake ducts and radiator ducts. We were able to optimise brake ducts down to the Nth degree while having the confidence to know that the new designs would satisfy the coolling requirements.
And that was almost ten years ago, the fidelity of the digital models used today is way ahead of those we used back then.

[Audi Racer]

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...9s-2-lmp2.html
In these photos of the new Zytek for 2009 the rear wing does not look as bad. I suppose it is because the Acura is really wide. so maybe all the other prototypes wont look that terrible.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...9s-2-lmp2.html
In these photos of the new Zytek for 2009 the rear wing does not look as bad. I suppose it is because the Acura is really wide. so maybe all the other prototypes wont look that terrible.

Aren't all LMP's the same width?

[CTD]

It's all about how they integrate it into there design!

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by andy_b

Aren't all LMP's the same width?

No. There is just a maximum width. ACO doesn't have to worry about a minimum because you are at a disadvantage the narower the car is after a certain point

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by Audi Racer

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...9s-2-lmp2.html
In these photos of the new Zytek for 2009 the rear wing does not look as bad. I suppose it is because the Acura is really wide. so maybe all the other prototypes wont look that terrible.

All LMP's are the same width. It looks like the Zytek just has a rear that tapers in behind the rear fender while the Acura ARX-02A goes straight back.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by andy_b

Aren't all LMP's the same width?

Yes, effectively. Max is 2000 mm, but very few design their car to any less than that. And if they do, we're usually only in the 1990 mm range. Gnat's dick anyone?

[The Badger]

Big dick for a gnat Mike ..... 10mm ..... reckon he might have trouble landing with that one mate !!!

[cmk]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

I'm wondering the same thing too. Wirth wouldn't divulge anything. I think they use Fluent as a basis but have then evolved it internally. I'm still wondering about the whole thing anyway. Models certainly aren't cheap, don't get me wrong. But in any given 10 hour day you can run through 40+ iterations, each being run through the entire ride height map. And frankly there are ways to make low cost models. And you also have the benefit of having the model in front of you and you can get "physical" with it and make intuitive changes right on the spot. It's my opinion that CFD isn't very user friendly from that stand point. Kind of like a sculpture never touching their hands to the clay...I wouldn't underestimate the benefit of this. There are reasons Dome utilized a 25% scale model for the front end work on the S102. But...this is the wave of the future I think. Totally digitally designed cars. The first time the see the physical wind will be when they hit the track.

I wonder whether some of this difference is not attributable to a different generation of designers. While I was never blessed with the aptitude, tons of people working on modding computer games when I was in grade school were playing with 3DSMax and the like and could make wonderful models that way, but would have fallen flat working with their hands on the same project. Given that I am now in grad school, some of the people from my generation are going to be working on the designs, and perhaps for them, it's more intuitive to move polygons than to touch the clay...

[Félix]

Isn't F1 becoming more and more about CFD these days... I guess they'll still want to run a tunnel 24-7 because they have the budgets and they've always been doing it. But it looks like they're all getting equipped for heavy work and they see the advantage of it with all the limitations on physical testing and the way the budgets become less and less unlimited. I guess optimizing some elements in a windtunnel is a black art compared to the precise readings you can get from a software... (I'm thinking cooling, ducts, tunnels or diffusers that are notoriously hard to scale down)

[Mal]

There a great article here with some interesting insight into the car:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no169.html

[deggis]

Robert Clarke new CEO of De Ferran Motorsports:

http://www.endurance-info.com/static...dex.txt&npds=1

(^ in English)

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by deggis

Robert Clarke new CEO of De Ferran Motorsports:

http://www.endurance-info.com/static...dex.txt&npds=1

(^ in English)

yeah, that's a significant signing. it just makes the team's relationship with honda that much stronger, and gives them some extra depth on the leadership front...

[HORNDAWG]

Here are a couple more videos from the WDWT. One of the ARX-02As where the difference in the exhaust is very evident. The second one is a general, of most of the rest of the participants at the WDWT. Here





L.P.

[skeeskirrt]

Originally Posted by Mal

There a great article here with some interesting insight into the car:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no169.html

Very interesting article. What do you make of this quote from Wirth, when speaking about the power-assisted hydraulic steering system:

"There are certain reasons why in the future it might be advantageous to have hydraulics on the engine for other engine-related functions you're allowed to do in P1 that you're not allowed to do in P2."

What other future hydraulic functions might they be anticipating? A hydraulic KERS?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

A hydraulic KERS?

That's what I was thinking too...

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

Very interesting article. What do you make of this quote from Wirth, when speaking about the power-assisted hydraulic steering system:

"There are certain reasons why in the future it might be advantageous to have hydraulics on the engine for other engine-related functions you're allowed to do in P1 that you're not allowed to do in P2."

What other future hydraulic functions might they be anticipating? A hydraulic KERS?

Wirth would not say anything else about this. When I pressed him, in fact all he'd say was that the choice for hydraulic power steering was driven by packaging. Period. So Kirby got something good and Wirth would not elaborate any further at all.

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by skeeskirrt

What other future hydraulic functions might they be anticipating? A hydraulic KERS?

Fly by Wire throttle would be my guess, handy to have when combined with a sequential gearbox quick shift system. Throttle is free in P1 but defined as direct mechanical linkage in P2.

[Félix]

BTW Mike, wasn't there a press release about Zytek providing electro-mechanical powershift for the ARX-01? That's probably where the electric paddle-shifter mentioned on your page is coming from.