Delta's tea-break thingy, the lighter wassname - 2013

[Al Weyman]

They havnt done anything with the price as yet and I don't think they will because of the environmental benifits the consumption doesn't drop that much my Blazer runs better when on gas. The conversion on the Dayvan cost me z£700 and a weekends work. Its paid for itself now and will make the vehicle more desirable when I sell it and worth more. Btw it has a higher octane rating than petrol so you can run more advance.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Funny that Mike, it doesn't seem that many years ago that diesel was as cheap as chips compared to petrol, I wonder why that is !!!!! ?

Gordon, I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that any British Government would take advantage of the motoring public?

Shame on you sir! Perish the thought, it's unthinkable, I am horrified at the implications of your post!

I would call you out but .................. the doctor is coming with his big nice syringe. Must go .........................OUCH! careful Doc.

La, la, la, I'm dreaming of a white Chri .......................................

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by bauble

Gordon, I sincerely hope you are not suggesting that any British Government would take advantage of the motoring public?

Shame on you sir! Perish the thought, it's unthinkable, I am horrified at the implications of your post!

I would call you out but .................. the doctor is coming with his big nice syringe. Must go .........................OUCH! careful Doc.

La, la, la, I'm dreaming of a white Chri .......................................

[zefarelly]

My old nail does 42 furlongs to the flagon, and that's the way I likes it.

HP have threatened to actually deliver us some boots today . . . that's nearly 3 weeks after first trying. Quick fit want to be worried

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Going back to diesel versus petrol, across a lot of mainland Europe the latter is more expensive so even in small cars diesel becomes the default choice......

But the cost of the fuel isn't the only cost to be considered.
Purchase price is higher (new or second hand).
Maintenance costs are higher.
Road tax is higher in some countries (same with LPG).
Not to mention the non-financial, e.g. environmental, costs.

Modern diesels need to run for a long time to function correctly (e.g. heat up the particulate filter), using a diesel as a shopping car will end up costing more than a petrol one when they encounter the surprisingly large garage bill.

But the biggest issue with buying new cars is the amount of energy (not to mention resources - modern cars use huge amounts of copper for example) used in their construction.
I don't know the current figures but it used to be that more than half the energy usage of a car over its lifetime was in its construction.
That means that keeping a car for longer is much more energy efficient (e.g. environmental) and encouraging people to buy new cars because they are more efficient does not help the environment in the way the punters are lead to believe.

Talking to my Scooby garage he said that people really don't understand simple economics. He also sells Suzukis and has people trading in recent large cars for little ones that are more economical and they think they are going to save money even though they have just lost a fortune on the car they traded in.
e.g. guy bought a 7,000 euro Suzuki and traded in a two year old Peugeot coupe for 15,000 euros less than he paid for it. Unless the Suzuki starts to generate its own power there is no way he will ever recoup his loss but he thinks he is now saving money!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

e.g. guy bought a 7,000 euro Suzuki and traded in a two year old Peugeot coupe for 15,000 euros less than he paid for it. Unless the Suzuki starts to generate its own power there is no way he will ever recoup his loss but he thinks he is now saving money!

If everyone kept their cars until end of life for the maximum economic impact, then there would be no secondhand market and what would the rest of us drive? Someone has to take the hit to keep me on the road.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by midgetman

If everyone kept their cars until end of life for the maximum economic impact, then there would be no secondhand market and what would the rest of us drive? Someone has to take the hit to keep me on the road.

The way banks are it's almost easier to buy a new car - why fork out the entire sum for a second hand car when you can have a new one for around 100 quid a month.

You have a point and it is also helped by manufacturers changing their models so often, fortunately some people couldn't bear to be seen in something out of date.
The problem is the mis-information, some people think they are being environmentally friendly when they are only propping up the car manufacturers and doing nothing for the environment.

When you look at the number of very young expensive cars for sale you can see that a lot of people would rather lose money on buying a new car (and driving it for a couple of thousand miles) than give it to the taxman.
That also maintains a good second hand supply but you need to wait a lot longer for such cars to become really affordable (if they ever are).

[Colin McKay]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

But the biggest issue with buying new cars is the amount of energy (not to mention resources - modern cars use huge amounts of copper for example) used in their construction.
I don't know the current figures but it used to be that more than half the energy usage of a car over its lifetime was in its construction.
That means that keeping a car for longer is much more energy efficient (e.g. environmental) and encouraging people to buy new cars because they are more efficient does not help the environment in the way the punters are lead to believe.

I think it was J D Power who did a league table of the whole life environmental cost of cars some years back. Because they're not redesigned every 2 years, are kept going on the cheap by successive owners and despite their fuel consumption the most environmentally friendly car on the market at the time was the Jeep Wrangler.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

I think it was J D Power who did a league table of the whole life environmental cost of cars some years back. Because they're not redesigned every 2 years, are kept going on the cheap by successive owners and despite their fuel consumption the most environmentally friendly car on the market at the time was the Jeep Wrangler.

It could be the same report that showed that a Range Rover does less harm to the environment than a Prius!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

It could be the same report that showed that a Range Rover does less harm to the environment than a Prius!

Unless it is Mr Clarkson in it driving up the side of a mountain, causing untold damage to the flora and fauna.......

OK, it was a Disco, but close!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

The way banks are it's almost easier to buy a new car - why fork out the entire sum for a second hand car when you can have a new one for around 100 quid a month......

.......a lot of people would rather lose money on buying a new car (and driving it for a couple of thousand miles) than give it to the taxman.
That also maintains a good second hand supply but you need to wait a lot longer for such cars to become really affordable (if they ever are).

I think I'd rather give it to the taxman than the banks At least some expenditure then goes on something I use, Mini-MM is still in full time education which I don't have to pay separately for and my (publicly funded) doctor is quite reasonable for race licence medicals

Interest paid to banks only gets paid in bonuses which I don't see - oh, hang on, quite a few of them race cars and want racewear, scrap that!!!!

[compte deGraves]

Top International racing driver, Iain Rowley, decimates the pack at Pau.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by compte deGraves

Top International racing driver, Iain Rowley, decimates the pack at Pau.

Nice pic! You can see 'double class winner' James Owen couple of cars behind on right as well.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Unless it is Mr Clarkson in it driving up the side of a mountain, causing untold damage to the flora and fauna.......

OK, it was a Disco, but close!

I doubt he did any lasting damage Mike.

However the following film crew ....

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I think I'd rather give it to the taxman than the banks At least some expenditure then goes on something I use, Mini-MM is still in full time education which I don't have to pay separately for and my (publicly funded) doctor is quite reasonable for race licence medicals

Interest paid to banks only gets paid in bonuses which I don't see - oh, hang on, quite a few of them race cars and want racewear, scrap that!!!!

Hmm.

Never used public education and hardly ever use the health "service".

Where can I claim compensation for mis-selling?

It's also quite clear that all government perform rate fixing and price fixing and pay themsleves far too much.

Can I fine someone for that?

[Al Weyman]

Oh well I must be well up in the environment stakes then, my regular transport is a T reg and the Dayvan a 1992, both work well and are rust free so why change.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

But the cost of the fuel isn't the only cost to be considered.
Purchase price is higher (new or second hand).
Maintenance costs are higher.
Road tax is higher in some countries (same with LPG).
Not to mention the non-financial, e.g. environmental, costs.

Modern diesels need to run for a long time to function correctly (e.g. heat up the particulate filter), using a diesel as a shopping car will end up costing more than a petrol one when they encounter the surprisingly large garage bill.

But the biggest issue with buying new cars is the amount of energy (not to mention resources - modern cars use huge amounts of copper for example) used in their construction.
I don't know the current figures but it used to be that more than half the energy usage of a car over its lifetime was in its construction.
That means that keeping a car for longer is much more energy efficient (e.g. environmental) and encouraging people to buy new cars because they are more efficient does not help the environment in the way the punters are lead to believe.

Talking to my Scooby garage he said that people really don't understand simple economics. He also sells Suzukis and has people trading in recent large cars for little ones that are more economical and they think they are going to save money even though they have just lost a fortune on the car they traded in.
e.g. guy bought a 7,000 euro Suzuki and traded in a two year old Peugeot coupe for 15,000 euros less than he paid for it. Unless the Suzuki starts to generate its own power there is no way he will ever recoup his loss but he thinks he is now saving money!

Yup.

There seem to be a lot of relatively young (in the modern not-so-rusty era) not especially high mileage cars on eBay being sold for spares or repairs. Many are diesles but whether that is somply because there started to be a lot of diesels sold around that time or people don't think they make sense in the 3rd/4th owner age band I don't know.

I suspect that the age/mileage is just at the point where bits need to be replaced and a recon fuel pump at £550 - or £1500 as I saw for something the other day - just makes them uneconomic for anyone not doing huge miles. i.e. the people who might spend 3 or 4 k on a car.

So you scrap a nominally perfectly servicable car and drive an entire traffic jam through the concept of energy saving and anti pollution measures. Utterly dumb but then why should we be surprised?

I was talking to a chap this morning who has just bought a new van. Smallish sort of thing for a one man heating systems installer. He had had the old one a while. Wanted to buy used again but could not find anything appropriate in the market. Only ex-fleet/rental and all of them white. So he bought new instead and got a grey one for no more money taking into account the deal available.

If there is aver a recovery that sort of market ripple, combined with recent scrappage rates for cars might result in an interesting used price bubble in a year or two.

Elder daughter reports that her recent Particulate Filter regeneration problem was fixed for £600. £200 to get the thing to work and 400 for a new set of brake pads all round. Apparently they had to install the latest software to get the regen to work (or something like that) and then could not reset the fault records because the existing pads were all worn to their limits (or so she was told it seems). Could be worse - apparently it has all resulted in the next service being scheduled for 11k miles further out.

No wonder these complicated travel devices, seemingly to be built better and better, look likely to have shorter and shorter working lives.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by grantp

Hmm.


It's also quite clear that all government perform rate fixing and price fixing and pay themsleves far too much.

Can I fine someone for that?

No you're just the proletariat, it's your job to pay and be thankful that you are able to help out your betters.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

No you're just the proletariat, it's your job to pay and be thankful that you are able to help out your betters.

It always ocurs to me that when our "betters" attempt to discuss the "benefits" system it's usually their benefits they are talking about.

Still, I suppose it's all good practice when learning how to run a charity. A lot of experience as beneficiaries.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by grantp

Yup.

There seem to be a lot of relatively young (in the modern not-so-rusty era) not especially high mileage cars on eBay being sold for spares or repairs. Many are diesles but whether that is somply because there started to be a lot of diesels sold around that time or people don't think they make sense in the 3rd/4th owner age band I don't know.

I suspect that the age/mileage is just at the point where bits need to be replaced and a recon fuel pump at £550 - or £1500 as I saw for something the other day - just makes them uneconomic for anyone not doing huge miles. i.e. the people who might spend 3 or 4 k on a car.

So you scrap a nominally perfectly servicable car and drive an entire traffic jam through the concept of energy saving and anti pollution measures. Utterly dumb but then why should we be surprised?

I was talking to a chap this morning who has just bought a new van. Smallish sort of thing for a one man heating systems installer. He had had the old one a while. Wanted to buy used again but could not find anything appropriate in the market. Only ex-fleet/rental and all of them white. So he bought new instead and got a grey one for no more money taking into account the deal available.

If there is aver a recovery that sort of market ripple, combined with recent scrappage rates for cars might result in an interesting used price bubble in a year or two.

Elder daughter reports that her recent Particulate Filter regeneration problem was fixed for £600. £200 to get the thing to work and 400 for a new set of brake pads all round. Apparently they had to install the latest software to get the regen to work (or something like that) and then could not reset the fault records because the existing pads were all worn to their limits (or so she was told it seems). Could be worse - apparently it has all resulted in the next service being scheduled for 11k miles further out.

No wonder these complicated travel devices, seemingly to be built better and better, look likely to have shorter and shorter working lives.

Given corrosion protection is so good these days there are presumably going to be millions of perfectly sound cars that will be scrapped due to electrical problems.

It makes the days of worrying about the expense of a cam-belt change seem like the dark ages.

Daughter was probably lucky to find a garage that didn't charge for a new particulate filter, 400 for brake pads sounds dear though?

Apparently the latest thing to worry about are twin clutch gearboxes (DSG in VW terms), owners who are aware of the cost know that when (not if!) it fails it is probably uneconomic to repair the car and they aren't talking about old cars.

Apart from that, which presumably applies to petrol cars as well, another cost with modern diesels is apparently the dual mass flywheel fitted to smooth out engine vibration - a clutch change often requires a new flywheel which is not cheap e.g. 1,000s rather than 100s.

It really is hard to believe how complicated they make cars these days - disconnecting the battery in something like a Ford Focus means you have to re-initialise the electric windows and if you stall an Audi R8 it has to go back to the garage to have the ECU reset before it will start again!!

[GORDON STREETER]

Blimey,all I did was kick started this thread moaning about slow drivers in powerful cars
However to add my piece about modern cars, I don't think the general public are aware of the problems we in the motor trade have to put up with from day to day work and servicing.
Some cars you have to re-program when you fit anything electrical as the ecu doesn't recognise the part.
And as for Canbus wiring, that brings in a whole new load of problems as at this moment I have a Jaguar X type (Mondeo) in the workshop with a wiring fault on the ABS circuit that has almost cost as much as the car is worth !!!!

[terence]

As its one of the wannabe Jags,bit of black tape over the warning light?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

And as for Canbus wiring, that brings in a whole new load of problems as at this moment I have a Jaguar X type (Mondeo) in the workshop with a wiring fault on the ABS circuit that has almost cost as much as the car is worth !!!!

Exactly this sort of problem Gordon.

I think this is why we will see a rash of "Spares or Repair" sales on eBay, etc and so many newer cars being scrapped very early in their expected lives.

In turn that could well mean shortages in the supply chain for used vehicles. Not great unless the economy suppresses demand to match the supply.

ETA: Could it be that a car has zero value after 6 or 7 years but so long as the cost of service and repairs does not exceed something like 2 or 3 grand per annum the 'cost of ownership' is still viable in most people's eyes?
If you take a new car at, say, 21k and write off the value over 7 years you have 3k per annum depreciation. (Roughly)

If running a used model did not xceed that in repair costs there would be no difference (roughly) except the lack of capital investment and finance charges.

Maybe no used vehicles after a few years though ...


Or maybe it won't matter as people abandon travel?

I read somewhere that far less than 50% (something like 30% iirc) of young Americans who have reached an eligible driving age are applying for licenses. Maybe the USA has fallen out of love with the car. Either that or they are all driving illegally.

[midgetman]

When looking for my tow barge, there were any number of cars for sale with "warning light illuminated". Many said "easy repair" - if it's so easy, why haven't you repaired it and selling the motor for more

I'd agree with your edit. Many people round here are deciding to hang onto cars longer and figure that the cost of repairs is still cheaper than the outlay/depreciation of a replacement. Cars don't rust or wear out like they used to, but any repairs do tend to be expensive so you hang onto it to get your money's worth!

DMFs are very much on people's lips around here....there is no cheap alternative, either.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

When looking for my tow barge, there were any number of cars for sale with "warning light illuminated". Many said "easy repair" - if it's so easy, why haven't you repaired it and selling the motor for more

I'd agree with your edit. Many people round here are deciding to hang onto cars longer and figure that the cost of repairs is still cheaper than the outlay/depreciation of a replacement. Cars don't rust or wear out like they used to, but any repairs do tend to be expensive so you hang onto it to get your money's worth!

DMFs are very much on people's lips around here....there is no cheap alternative, either.

In effect the marketplace generated a lot of well equipped cars some year back and there is not much one can add for the showroom today that did not exist 10 years ago (if you buy selectively). Maybe an MP3 player connection for the audio system ....

So potentially you can buy all the toys you are interested in off a used forecourt provided you are prepared to take on the running costs or abandon certain bits that you are not desperate about when they fail.

My Saab no longer has a working rear screen wash (no idea why but it's somewhat inaccessible to trace the pipework), the parking sensors have stopped working (something related to having a towbar fitted some years back), the dipping for the N/S door mirror when reversing no longer works (not investigated) and the Service Thaft Alarm message keps appearng.

Only the latter is a real concern since when that really fails the alarm goes off randomly and annoys people. However I fixed the siren late last year and replaced the problem parts so I reckon the message may be spurious. It is certainly random.

The LCD display on the ACC unit became totally unreadable but a quick eBay shop at a well known Saab Servicer and breaker got me a recovered unit for less than the cost of a repair service on eBay.

Other than finding a relatively modern car that is still easy enough to fix when required but will suddenly shoot up in value as a collectors item I think some of the best options available probably sit in the 1999 to 2005 age band. However what options there might be in 5 year from now are less clear.