2015 Japanese Super GT

[AkioAsakura95]

Originally Posted by Matt

oh my god just stop.

you could have used any number of online translators instead of consistently bothering JS.

ohh ok, then can you please introduce one of the online translators (exclude Google Translate)

[FIRE]

The DTM's incoming 2017 technical platform has to redress the balance between technology and racing, BMW motorsport director Jens Marquardt reckons.
Audi has already stated that the Class One regulations being jointly developed with Japan's Super GT must cut costs, a view Marquardt shares.

He wants to ensure money is not spent on things "invisible" to fans.


...


A difficulty in finding workable solutions, Marquardt concedes, is that Mercedes and Audi are heavily involved in Formula 1 and the World Endurance Championship respectively, and have facilities to match.
"We have to balance it in a smart way, and clearly not go and get F1 facilities," he said.
"We use BMW's production car windtunnel facility, we have no motorsport facility, which has so far been good enough.


..


"Aero-wise, our cars make it difficult. They are very aerodynamically-dominated, with tyres producing a lot of grip, people are saying already that they are underpowered at the same time.
"We have to take all measures that we can to rebalance this to a more attractive package that we can also use to make cost-efficient."
Super GT manufacturers Honda, Lexus and Nissan are involved in developing the new package, and clues could come from the Japanese series' existing cars.
"Their cars right now (pictured below) are probably much more something that we are talking about," Marquardt said.
"Their four-cylinder engine has more power, but the cars are definitely way less sophisticated when it comes to the aero, with even the current regulations.
"They have taken our current regulations and already have a rebalance in their package, which I think is a good hint to us about where things can and should be heading."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121201

I don't follow Super GT but I thought it was more advanced in aero area than DTM?


A quote from the DTM topic in the touring car forum:

Originally Posted by DS"

According to "Auto, Motor und Sport", Mercedes has put their development on a new 2017-spec turbo on a hiatus, because they seem to have run out of money. Furthermore, they want to delay the introduction of the turbo until 2019 and they've already talked about it to Audi and BMW...FFS! If the manufacturers don't have the money for DTM anymore, they should just shut down and supply potential TCR customers. Jesus Christ, normally I am a fan of Mercedes, but I know why I really don't like their racing department...

Another delay for the cooperation between Super GT and DTM?

[J Jay]

No, the DTM cars put out downforce figures that IIRC even top the factory LMP1s, although obviously the LMP1s are much more efficient, even in "sprint spec", than the slipperiest DTM car. I remember reading an RCE issue with an interview from Dieter Gass (Audi's DTM head) and he mentions the DTM rules allowing almost free reign aero-wise on the bottom of the car, any area below the top of the wheel arches I think. JAF probably took the sensible decision to restrict the aero in these areas after seeing the great racing DTM produced...

Originally Posted by DS"

According to "Auto, Motor und Sport", Mercedes has put their development on a new 2017-spec turbo on a hiatus, because they seem to have run out of money. Furthermore, they want to delay the introduction of the turbo until 2019 and they've already talked about it to Audi and BMW...FFS! If the manufacturers don't have the money for DTM anymore, they should just shut down and supply potential TCR customers. Jesus Christ, normally I am a fan of Mercedes, but I know why I really don't like their racing department...

So Mercedes' is funneling so much money into F1 that their DTM outfit is running low on cash? Seeing as the main point of getting JAF to adopt DTM regs was to save money and the ultimate goal was to do this Class 1 thing and open up the market for both countries (and possibly more, but that's not going to happen) this isn't good news for the German marques. The Japanese manufacturers can carry on as they are having made the changes they wanted, but the Germans are stuck in a trap where nobody wants to blink first.

[TF110]

They dont need Mercedes if Audi and BMW are committed to class 1. Theyll be left out or turn their decision around. I have a hard time believing they havent enough money. Sounds like an excuse not to change engine formulas.

[AkioAsakura95]

Originally Posted by TF110

They dont need Mercedes if Audi and BMW are committed to class 1. Theyll be left out or turn their decision around. I have a hard time believing they havent enough money. Sounds like an excuse not to change engine formulas.

@TF110

I agree that too.. because Merecedes need to focus on AMG Customer Support unlike Audi and BMW

[carbsmith]

Super GT has the same aerodynamic regulations aside from the low drag kit for Fuji and a few races they were worried about corner speeds. Seems like the Germans being arrogant that their aero programs are better, honestly. I mean maybe they are because they're using F1 wind tunnels and the Japanese are putting more resources into the relatively high payoff engine programs but they still have enough downforce the chassis isn't stiff enough.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by J Jay

No, the DTM cars put out downforce figures that IIRC even top the factory LMP1s, although obviously the LMP1s are much more efficient, even in "sprint spec", than the slipperiest DTM car. I remember reading an RCE issue with an interview from Dieter Gass (Audi's DTM head) and he mentions the DTM rules allowing almost free reign aero-wise on the bottom of the car, any area below the top of the wheel arches I think. JAF probably took the sensible decision to restrict the aero in these areas after seeing the great racing DTM produced...

Have DTM and/or LMP1s downforce figures ever been made public I only remember one, posted by Japanese Samurai, of Toyota's LM, therefore low drag, downforce figure

I have never seen a DTM car underbody, but, looking from behing the cars, it's diffuser seems bigger and more sealed than that of the LMP1s. The DTMs are very fast in aero corners, considering their 1100kg. I would say their cornering speed is on par with that of F3

LMP1s are 150kg lighter, so, their cornering speed is, unsurprisingly, higher than that of DTM, though.

In all honesty, imho, the biggest problem for DTM poor racing is the tracks they race in. It will always be very hard to pass, even with DRS, in Zandevoort, Moscow, Oschersleben, Nurburgring, Hungaroring. On places like Hockenheim, Red Bull Ring, Monza or Spa(the last two, unfortunately, they don't race on), I think they could overtake even without the disgraceful DRS.

[J Jay]

No, I've never seen numbers either. But it struck me that Dieter Gass (who probably knows what he is talking about) very confidently said that the DTM car produced more downforce than the 2014 R18.

You make a good point about the tracks but from what I've seen the cars look like they are aero-first, so to speak. Otherwise it wouldn't be that hard to pass even with similar engines and spec tyres.

[Artur]

Do you remember where you saw that claim from Dieter Gass? Was it on RCE? I would like to see the whole comparison that he made

Well, yesterday, I watched Blancpain on Zandvoort and the racing was just as boring as DTM's around there.

It's almost impossible to pass there and the only difference is that Blancpain looks like DTM on slow motion

[MagVanisher]

More delays on rule unification, huh? Makes me wonder if the ITR and the big 3 German manufacturers are so incompetent of those things?

On the other hand, I wonder if Team Studie would modify the M6 DTM car to be less aero-dependent and more in-line with the current JAF regulations?

[ss_collins]

Yeah done various bits with Gass and others in the last year or so. Basically the facts are this - DTM has more downforce, GT500 has much better tyres and more power. GT500 is significantly faster at the moment. DTM never agreed to use the entire NRE package as the germans wanted to do it themselves (despite NRE being a very good rule book), additionally GT500 wants open engine development DTM wants frozen engines...

I think we are still on the path to true unification. I do think the 2017 Fuji Shootout will happen though.

On the other hand, I wonder if Team Studie would modify the M6 DTM car to be less aero-dependent and more in-line with the current JAF regulations?

Doubtful. GTA have already said that if Studie turned up with a V8 powered DTM car it would get a favourable BoP - the Germans seem not to believe them

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Yeah done various bits with Gass and others in the last year or so. Basically the facts are this - DTM has more downforce, GT500 has much better tyres and more power. GT500 is significantly faster at the moment. DTM never agreed to use the entire NRE package as the germans wanted to do it themselves (despite NRE being a very good rule book), additionally GT500 wants open engine development DTM wants frozen engines...

I think we are still on the path to true unification. I do think the 2017 Fuji Shootout will happen though.

Same here as I want to see both DTM and Super GT duke it out. However, why the JAF's Nippon Race Engine has open development despite telling the three Japanese manufacturers to make an Inline-4 turbocharged engine?

In a perfect world, both organizations can use and openly develop engine in any size and/or number of cylinders.

[ss_collins]

NRE 'Next Racing Engine' is a turbocharged 2 litre 4 cylinder direct injection formula. So all engines are 2 litre I4. The difference is the development is free basically within the tech regs. DTM wants to create its own turbocharged 2 litre 4 cylinder direct injection engine formula but not exactly the same as NRE. Why? because I get the impression ITR does not like to follow the lead of others.

[hvr777]

Finally, the entry list for Round 7 Autopolis is published.

http://as-web.jp/news/info.php?c_id=2&no=68844

For GT500 car, #100 Raybrig NSX will carry most "real" weight handicap (#12 Calsonic has "51 kg" but its 50 kg is replaced by fuel restrictor therefore only carry 1kg real weight)

From what I got at that Japanese article, because #18 UpGarage (GT300) has deployed more that 4 drivers, the team switches the car number into #20. And with #20 number, the lineup is reverted to Nakayama/Ide pair.

Sigh, still no point for Up Garage team...

Is it right that teams which miss some races at middle of season will still get x2kg handicap at Round 7?

[Japanese Samurai]

Team MACH (#5) seems to sell GT-86 MC.
Tetsuji Tamanaka was criticizing for a lot of the trouble of the MC car.

[Japanese Samurai]

News source
https://www.facebook.com/tetsuji.tam...50564201714899

Tetsuji Tamanaka says, "for sale".

Hiroto Kaneso (Team apr) replies, "I want to buy it".

Tamanaka replies, "I will sell it to you!".

[AkioAsakura95]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

News source
https://www.facebook.com/tetsuji.tam...50564201714899

Tetsuji Tamanaka says, "for sale".

Hiroto Kaneso (Team apr) replies, "I want to buy it".

Tamanaka replies, "I will sell it to you!".

@Japanese Samurai

It means that (#30) second car of apr use Toyota 86MC for next year!!!!
Hope second car of apr team will be the new driver lineup

[hvr777]

Originally Posted by AkioAsakura95

@Japanese Samurai

It means that (#30) second car of apr use Toyota 86MC for next year!!!!
Hope second car of apr team will be the new driver lineup

I think it's possible to exchange cars between Mach 5 team & apr..
Mach 5 team must be already being experienced with GT-R ('13 & '14).
But currently apr's GT-R GT3 is 2014 model year, hopefully it's still possible to update it into 2016 version.

Well in the beginning of the season, I'm not sure with Mach 5's 86 MC.
Even Takeshi Tsuchiya (#25 VivaC 86 MC driver & chief engineer) confessed it's still got lot of troubles for its first full season (his comment after won at Sugo)

[Japanese Samurai]

Autosport web reports Sebastien Philippe (ART team) interview.
http://as-web.jp/news/info.php?c_id=6&no=68885

Q. What is the difference between SGT and DTM?
A. it's different in the project cost and the number of staff.
The budget scale of DTM is bigger than SGT.
In particular, there are many engineers in DTM.
DTM is more refined in PR divisions and logistics, etc.

Q. How do you think about the difference in the tires of two series?
A. In SGT, there is a tire war. But I don't think it's better to spend a huge cost on tire competition in DTM.

Q. What do you think about DTM tires.
A. It is a good tire as one-make. DTM tire is about the double weight of the SGT tire.

Q. Do you think after 2018, there is a participant to SGT from DTM?
A. I don't think so. I think that's enough when an inter race is achieved.

[MagVanisher]

So it seems that a joint race after 2018 will be a low possibility, perhaps?

With a big but subtle differences between DTM and Super GT beyond the chassis tub, it's impossible to race each other unless there's a compromise, which neither won't bulge.

[FIRE]

I think cooperation will never happen.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I think cooperation will never happen.

I have the same sensation like you.
Somebody mentioned in this forum that the ACO wants to GTE/GTLM (GTP) in the LMP2 pace in a few years.
The Super GT teams wants to go to the 24 hours of Le Mans, perhaps the GT500 rules should be like the future GTE/GTLM (GTP).

[Japanese Samurai]

http://blog.studie.jp/2015/10/post-9342.html

According to Studie "BOB" Suzuki blog,
Past annual budget of Team Studie was about 100,000,000 yen. (Chassis excluded)
And 2016 season's annual budget is about 150,000,000 yen.
It's because spare parts and tools are changed.
And he says that this season's main sponsor will withdraw.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I have the same sensation like you.
Somebody mentioned in this forum that the ACO wants to GTE/GTLM (GTP) in the LMP2 pace in a few years.
The Super GT teams wants to go to the 24 hours of Le Mans, perhaps the GT500 rules should be like the future GTE/GTLM (GTP).

If they drop the DTM chassis rules it wouldnt bother me. But I think class1 is a big deal and the Japanese brands really want it to happen. We will see.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

But I think class1 is a big deal and the German brands really want it to happen. We will see.

It's the German brands that are haemorrhaging money over a not-exactly-popular (or, dare I say it, useful) racing series. They need Class 1 to happen the most to save face on the "investments" made so far. JAF can cope without Class 1 because they didn't adopt the DTM regs wholesale and as a result SGT still produces the goods.

I'm sure the Japanese would really like to see it happen as well but I think that's part of a more general push by JAF to promote Japanese motorsport abroad, like the polite enquiries into fielding a GT500 car at LM (it'll happen in my dreams in the next fortnight if anyone is interested...)