Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[the.cosmic.pope]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I see little difference in the hype you describe and the anti-hype. Both as bad as each other. Apart from i seem to hear more from the anti! It is one car, not the best or worse thing ever.

I actually agree with you there. The anti-hype (hate?) is just as bad. However like anything which is overhyped, the problem is anyone who doesn't love it is described as a hater (or anti-hyper?). Right now I'm posting saying I'm not a huge fan of the DW, but I have no doubt there are people reading it, foaming at the mouth, thinking "Damn pope hates the DeltaWing!". Don't make the mistake of thinking that everybody who isn't a fan hates it (I know you aren't doing that, but many are).

As I've said multiple times, I think the car is fine, I just am not seeing what it's achieving.

[Javi]

You are right, media will overvalue the Deltawing "Nissan" effort, but that´s part of the game, isn´t it??
Last weekend some TV news programme in Spain was saying that ACO had to "restrict" this car because if not it "will win the race easily from all LMP1´s"..., but journalists who do not know anything from motorsport is commoon view here

[davehenrie]

The two roll blades are due to the conversion to a prototype concept. They used a tub left over from the AMR-1 as the basis of the sportscar concept. Why? Because the tub was already approved and crash tested. I am assuming the use of the tub also gives the car some measure of cohesiveness with the rest of the Protos. A single seat DW could be more easily protested against.
dh

[Maelochs]

If the Delta Wing wasn’t something totally new none of us would even notice it.

Please, all you folks saying it is not new … point out the other cars which have no wings, combined front tread width half the width of a single rear tire, 75% of the weight and aero downforce on the rear wheels and with minimal development runs times on par with the second-fastest class on the track (and could possibly run with the P1s if it were allowed)?

It is a new idea. There has never been a racing tricycle capable of outperforming many of the top Le Mans prototypes.

People who talk just about power/weight ratio are deliberately overlooking the rest of the equation:

Vastly less tire use (in part because its four tires are equivalent to two-and-a-half P2 tires, in part because it apparently gets really good tire life—while also running P2 speeds. Name another car that does that. It isn’t just light weight—it is light weight and P2 performance with no wings and extended tire life.)

Half the power and half the weight and all the performance—with equivalent safety.

A more efficient car in that it uses less of everything—carbon fiber (some of the bodywork is new recyclable carbon fiber product,) metal, rubber, fuel—while offering comparable performance.

Plenty of downforce Plus half the drag—something no other manufacturer has been able to do with a rectangular car.

Is it the way of the future? Doubtful as a Le Mans prototype as it has nothing in common with a road car. Le Mans prototypes are supposed to at least in some why resemble two-passenger sports cars (what a joke nowadays, but still … )

Obviously the DW principles wouldn’t work on a passenger car—though it would probably be a great formula car design. If it could have been built and tested a year earlier IndyCar might have grabbed it, but instead, it was an unproven concept when the new IndyCar was picked.

I don’t like it for purely atavistic reasons—I grew up with rectangular cars (however, I accepted the six-wheeled Tyrell with no problem … hmm …,) and I like my sports cars rectangular. Personal taste.

People who claim the DW was designed oddly just to be odd are being disingenuous.

The DW was designed to show a new way of looking at formula cars (Not sports cars) and to incorporate “green” ideology—lower resource consumption, more reuse/recycling, equivalent performance with a smaller carbon footprint. It is proving all that amply.

I understand why some people are so vehemently opposed to it—those folks simply don’t deal with new ideas well. “Fear of Change” is very human.

I am sure engineers in the early 1900s weren’t imagining the Peugeot 908 or Audi R18 Hybrid when they started sketching. I am pretty sure that if there even is automobile racing 100 years from now it will be with vehicles which won’t be too similar to what we use today.

The sky is Not falling—at least not because of the Delta Wing. The enormous cost of racing is killing innovation because no factory is going to build an experimental car, or allow its competitors to do so—that’s one reason the rules are so restrictive. No manufacturer wants to invest half a billion whatevers to be upstaged by some totally out-of-the-box design from a competitor, nor have to try to explain to the Board of Directors why the new out-of-the-box design is losing.

We will be seeing nothing but homogenized cars at the top levels for a long time to come I fear. What major manufacturer is going to agree to wide-open rules and risk getting spanked thoroughly? What BoD is going to fund an innovative car past the second season if it gets beat up badly enough in the first year?

Serious innovation has been relegated to Garage 56 projects, and University-funded student design competitions. What we have in the DW is innovation—something so many here claim to want. The next year’s P-56 is equally innovative—and again, people complain because it doesn’t look like the rest of the cars on the grid. Whatever.

Anyway, our precious rectangular cars are not in danger. DW might get a spec class, and it might infiltrate formula-car racing, but it won’t displace the more ordinary prototypes anytime soon I don’t think. Try to relax and breathe deeply. It’s just a concept car.

[canam]

6 seconds off P2--which I think is the fair comparison.

With a 40l fuel tank it should be able to do a similar stint distance as the other LMP2 cars. It should save about 20 seconds per pit stop on the fuelling alone.

The better use of tyres (say four stints per set on average--although some are talking about doing 8 stints per set if not more) will save another 20 seconds every other stint.

On average, it will save 30 seconds per stint--equal to say roughly 2.7 seconds per lap.

That would put it mid grid in P2--just where it should be.

I love it as it does more for the image of LM racing (to the average person in the street) than any works effort.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Javi

i just wonder why people is so afraid of the DeltaWing... It won´t collect points, nor win the race from Audi or Toyota, it will be restricted in top speed and laptimes... it is just a technological testbed... And, by the way, thanks to the DW, some spanish newspapers and TV programmes that have never cared a bit about this race have talked about Le Mans again...

That entry slot (which doesn't exist), is taking a spot away from yet another proper, conventional, car!

[Aysedasi]

No it isn't. It is an extra slot. But it's designated for the 'new technology' additional place, otherwise it wouldn't be used.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by the.cosmic.pope

But the very fact the cars are "only a few seconds faster" means it isn't inefficient, they are actually more efficient. They are faster. And it isn't just a few seconds off the pace, it's 22 seconds off the pace, despite being allowed to operate 100% outside of the rule book. This car literally has no rules to adhere by, and it's 22 seconds off the pace (and 6 off of P2), using old concepts that everybody already knew is true. At least the Green GT is attempting to introduce a power system which we haven't seen in motor racing yet. Ok that's hellishly ugly too, but it actually has technology motorsport hasn't used yet, and could be a real benefit to the future of the sport.

The original spec was supposed to fall between P1 & P2. Then ACO said they wanted 3:45. It's now at 3:48 and they think they can get it to 3:45 for the race. It's right on spec. The cars that are going 6 sec faster (which should be 3-4 sec in the race) are doing so using nearly 50% more fuel. To me, 50% is a LOT to get 3-4 sec. As Canam points out, with the faster pit stops it will enjoy, that will move it up further among the P2's.

I want to see fuel consumption figures. That's the whole point of this exercise and if it isn't running around half fuel consumption, then it hasn't been a success, but if it is, there haven't been any cars that have achieved this sort of lap time with this sort of fuel consumption. Not even close.

I'm a big fan of hydrogen fuel cells. I've argued for them in the Next Generation F1 thread and other places. I think they are the way of the future. I think the DW, emphasizing packaging of conventional technology it the place where the automotive industry can achieve the most gains over the next few years. I look forward to next year's entry as well, and kudos to the ACO for operating this class to showcase new approaches to reduce the environmental footprint of racing cars and hopefully road cars.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

No it isn't. It is an extra slot. But it's designated for the 'new technology' additional place, otherwise it wouldn't be used.

Hence my , but how many times in this thread have we seen that exact argument.

[GT6]

I agree with several of the people here, the ACO is using the extra slot in the best possible way, highlighting new and radical idea's and hopefully helping to develop new directions for motor racing, this year however they have out done themselves no one expected the Delta wing to get this much publicity and they must be patting themselves on the back for taking the gamble.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Again, and?

What does this mean or prove?

I'm pretty sure there'd be an awful lot of noise here if the DW was posting times at the top of LMP2. Anyhow - we've all seen precious little yet. Let the darned thing race.

I guess it doesn't mean or prove anything. That's the point. What is this thing? A car? A motorcycle? A GT? A Prototype? An Indy car? NASCAR? In the past, most of the cars that have been added have been sports cars with specific innovations such as the gas turbine, rotary engine, biofuel, etc. but they've been sports cars. I don't care if they let it race, but I believe the spot would have better been given to something with future promise as a sports car (the Porsche GT hybrid, etc.). This is a one-off. It will race this year and we will never hear of it again. It will disapear into the ether as it is nothing specific. As to your second point. Who would care if it was posting times at the top of the LMP2 field? At least it would make the race interesting to see if it could compete for a top five or something. Right now it looks like it will be competing with the bottom of the P2 field and the top of the GT field. Well, okay! If your going to have it run, at least let it run....! Let's see what it can do. At least it can go out in a flash in the pan of glory!

DK

[joeb]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I guess it doesn't mean or prove anything. That's the point. What is this thing? A car? A motorcycle? A GT? A Prototype? An Indy car? NASCAR? In the past, most of the cars that have been added have been sports cars with specific innovations such as the gas turbine, rotary engine, biofuel, etc. but they've been sports cars. I don't care if they let it race, but I believe the spot would have better been given to something with future promise as a sports car (the Porsche GT hybrid, etc.). This is a one-off. It will race this year and we will never hear of it again. It will disapear into the ether as it is nothing specific. As to your second point. Who would care if it was posting times at the top of the LMP2 field? At least it would make the race interesting to see if it could compete for a top five or something. Right now it looks like it will be competing with the bottom of the P2 field and the top of the GT field. Well, okay! If your going to have it run, at least let it run....! Let's see what it can do. At least it can go out in a flash in the pan of glory!

DK

Actually, this isn't likely to be a one off - the car could take part in future WEC rounds, or ALMS rounds at the very least.

As for you last point, I totally agree. I wish they (ACO) wouldn't have pinned this thing to a certain lap time and top speed restriction. But apparently they did this to appease the other teams running to the rules. I understand the thoughts of the other teams on this, but for the ACO to say garage 56 is to demonstrate the potential of new technologies then I don't understand why it is restricted? With these restrictions what potential are they demonstrating - the ability to run to an aco laptime and top speed? Oh well, at least we get to see a new concept on the track - even if it isn't running to its full potential.

edit: by the way, Maelochs post on the previous page was the best post on this topic so far, and I just wanted to mention it again!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I understand why some people are so vehemently opposed to it—those folks simply don’t deal with new ideas well. “Fear of Change” is very human.

Well said that man. As a relative newcomer to endurance racing I find it amusing and interesting that the word "prototype" is used to describe classes of racing with designs almost as limited as those in F1, yet the DW is absolutely a prototype in the real sense of the word.

It creates such strong reactions precisely because it's different to the others - and whether you like it or not, the ACO and Nissan are getting the publicity garage 56 is supposed to get. That means more eyeballs on endurance racing. Is that a bad thing?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

I wish they (ACO) wouldn't have pinned this thing to a certain lap time and top speed restriction.

They've done that for every other class! They call this approach "the rules"!

But apparently they did this to appease the other teams running to the rules. I understand the thoughts of the other teams on this...

Radio Le Mans have an interview with Ulrich Baretzky and they talk about the Delta Wing. Have a listen:
http://audio.rpix.org.uk/lm24/2012/2...tday_lunch.mp3

[optica]

Perhaps the main problem with the Deltawing at this stage is that there is only one of them. If the ACO had allowed say half a dozen of them run as a separate class we would just accept them for what they are and be arguing about their relative merits as we do with any other class. After all it is about racing and throughout the realms of different motorsports there are some pretty bizarre vehicles. I think Ben Bowlby deserves a lot of credit for what he has created. It has taken a huge amount of conviction and risk taking to get this machine built and on to a racing circuit especially Le Mans. It is adding a lot of interest to this year's race though it might be nice to see it with a more complimentary paint job instead of an advertising hoarding for Nissan.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Hence my , but how many times in this thread have we seen that exact argument.

Perhaps we've seen it so often because it's true.......

[bjohnsonsmith]

I personally think it's a good thing and I'm looking forward to see it race. If it doesn't go the distance, which is probably the likely outcome, at least they gave it a shot.

[Aysedasi]

Yep, with a week or so to go before I see the car out in practice, I'm happy to wait and see how it gets on instead of just going round and round in circles as we've done here for page after page. We know what the supporters think; we know what the those opposed to it think - but why not just keep an open mind....

[Articus]

Im thoroughly impressed. I think that car is alot(significantly) quicker than we got to see at the test day...The car has a higher top speed than all of the LMP2 cars...Not to mention half the weight. Put two and two together. That car is going to be a rocket. Quite frankly the DeltWing has the potential to be on the pace of the privateer P1 cars... If they are only lapping 3:35...I think the Delta wing can do a 3:35 lap time. 300km/h top end..half the weight. It has to be faster than the P2 cars right?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by optica

Perhaps the main problem with the Deltawing at this stage is that there is only one of them. If the ACO had allowed say half a dozen of them run as a separate class we would just accept them for what they are and be arguing about their relative merits as we do with any other class. After all it is about racing and throughout the realms of different motorsports there are some pretty bizarre vehicles. I think Ben Bowlby deserves a lot of credit for what he has created. It has taken a huge amount of conviction and risk taking to get this machine built and on to a racing circuit especially Le Mans. It is adding a lot of interest to this year's race though it might be nice to see it with a more complimentary paint job instead of an advertising hoarding for Nissan.

I would love to see it as a class with half the fuel allotment of P1, safety rules, maximum dimensions, and see what happens. It probably wouldn't compete for the overall win at first, but at some point it would, and a lot of the manufacturers would change from P1 to that class.

Eventually they would need to reduce the fuel allotment to keep speeds under control.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Articus

Im thoroughly impressed. I think that car is alot(significantly) quicker than we got to see at the test day...The car has a higher top speed than all of the LMP2 cars...Not to mention half the weight. Put two and two together. That car is going to be a rocket. Quite frankly the DeltWing has the potential to be on the pace of the privateer P1 cars... If they are only lapping 3:35...I think the Delta wing can do a 3:35 lap time. 300km/h top end..half the weight. It has to be faster than the P2 cars right?

to comment my own post. Is it true that the Delta wing has a target lap time?

[lms]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

We will be seeing nothing but homogenized cars at the top levels for a long time to come I fear. What major manufacturer is going to agree to wide-open rules and risk getting spanked thoroughly? What BoD is going to fund an innovative car past the second season if it gets beat up badly enough in the first year?

Serious innovation has been relegated to Garage 56 projects, and University-funded student design competitions. What we have in the DW is innovation—something so many here claim to want. The next year’s P-56 is equally innovative—and again, people complain because it doesn’t look like the rest of the cars on the grid. Whatever.

Anyway, our precious rectangular cars are not in danger. DW might get a spec class, and it might infiltrate formula-car racing, but it won’t displace the more ordinary prototypes anytime soon I don’t think.

Yeah, I hope it wont

about this "opening up the rulebook": The rule makers at ACO or FIA just need to keep their heads down and focus on the 2014 lmp1 regs and not get distracted by all this. If "wide open rules" result in lmp cars like the dw than no thanks. I mean... wide open rules regarding the chassis. the aco created something unique with this lmp1 -lmp2 formula that doesnt exist anywhere else (maybe the cn protos are somewhat similar) and they need to stick with that. As for no innovation, no fresh ideas and regs moving towards "spec car" formula, hell no. We have hybrids this year. I mean normal, going-for-the-overall-win hybrids, not that Hope Racing disaster. Things are looking good. Contructors shouldnt be allowed to bring whatever the f they want with a minimum weight limit. A racing class needs to have some character and needs to be identifiable and with rules that sets the cars apart from other forms of racing. But the ACO already achieved those with the current rules, and maybe will "fine tune" the regs to allow different engines etc. imho there is simply no need for such a drastic change.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by optica

Perhaps the main problem with the Deltawing at this stage is that there is only one of them. If the ACO had allowed say half a dozen of them run as a separate class we would just accept them for what they are and be arguing about their relative merits as we do with any other class. After all it is about racing and throughout the realms of different motorsports there are some pretty bizarre vehicles. I think Ben Bowlby deserves a lot of credit for what he has created. It has taken a huge amount of conviction and risk taking to get this machine built and on to a racing circuit especially Le Mans. It is adding a lot of interest to this year's race though it might be nice to see it with a more complimentary paint job instead of an advertising hoarding for Nissan.

Speak for yourself, that's the last thing I'd want to see, spec classes are already bad enough, I've already accepted (fairly reluctantly) one of these things, but a whole spec class packed full of them would be a lot more than I could tolerate.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Speak for yourself, that's the last thing I'd want to see, spec classes are already bad enough, I've already accepted (fairly reluctantly) one of these things, but a whole spec class packed full of them would be a lot more than I could tolerate.

I wouldn't want to see a whole class either, that would kill the concept of Garage 56 but if the D-Wing can inspire others, then I think it's achieved a lot.

[TME45]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Let me clarify my position once and for all. I don't really hate the vehicle that DW is. I generally dislike bull***, that's why it seems that way. When something becomes good only because it's beaten into your head by some good PR-people, it becomes even worse in my book. I hope I won't see it next year, but it may become the car to have in ALMS 2013.

There is every reason to think that this car is vastly inferior in every respect to a hypothetical rectangular car designed and built by the same people with the same resources, even using some of the same concepts!
Ask yourselves did you REALLY need a wacky-looking vehicle to prove you that the current LMP rules severely restrict efficiency?! This is an extreme example of thinking outside the box for the sake of thinking outside the box. And I have absolutely no problem with any kind of fun quirky nonsense, as long as it's not being 'spinned' as the breakthrough in technology that seems to have already overshadowed everything else that will happen in sportscar racing this year.

PS: @canam
I'd rather see a semi-works Nissan LMP1 effort fighting with the Lolas and HPDs.

you can't do the same thing on a rectangular car.
ground effect car would fly aeay as you get lots of plate to let the air flow done that
and the shape make more lift & drag, that means it is impossible to make same drag with deltawing on a rectangular car.