MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Sommersby]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I asked earlier in the thread where this document saying that was and since then no one has produced anything.


I guess I'm just someone who doesn't beleive everything posted on an internet forum

SB, this is the First release:
Media Release

Tuesday 8 January 2013

MotorSport New Zealand meets with V8 Categories

MotorSport New Zealand, NZV8s and V8 Supertourers met in Wellington yesterday to discuss the future and way forward for V8 Touring car racing in New Zealand.

MotorSport New Zealand President, Shayne Harris said “This was a very positive and productive meeting which has resulted in all three parties working together for the betterment of the classes involved.”

“There was good discussion around the look and structure of the race calendar with both V8 Supertourers and NZV8s indicating that they both wished to review their race calendars based on a calendar year from 2014 onwards,” said Mr Harris.

“V8 Supertourers indicated that they would like their rules and regulations to be sanctioned and the Sport will work with the category over the coming weeks with the objective to achieve that.”

V8 Supertourers, Managing Director, Mark Petch, said, “The meeting was friendly frank and constructive. We are now very confident that all three parties can work together for the betterment of motor racing here in New Zealand.”

Greg Lancaster, Chairman of NZV8’s, said that he was very pleasantly surprised with the accords reached on a number of substantive issues. “A major objective of my board, the return to a unified premier racing series, has been agreed in principle.”

The parties have agreed in principal on all fronts and over the next few weeks the details will be worked through with the aim being a closer working relationship for the benefit of motorsport in New Zealand.

Ends

Issued by MotorSport NZ

Following that, I interviewed Mr Budd over the phone, following talk of the V8ST being invited to race at the V8SC Round. He confirmed that indeed MSNZ had informed V8SC that they would like them to consider including the V8ST.

Shaun

[Swedish Brick]

I don't see anything in there that suggests anything like some here are saying. One key thing I see is a date. 2014.

Was there any indication of what reply Budd got from the Aussies?

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

To have it accepted as fact you need one of the following:
The driver to log in and tell the story.
The person accused to log in and admit it
Verified recording posted up

Other wise its just a claim from a dubious source

No, it is fact, and I am sure others on here will support the post and indicate it is true. Not the job of the driver who was called at the weekend. Budd made the call and the threat so it is Brian who should log on here and say he DIDN'T call the driver and DIDN'T threaten him.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I don't see anything in there that suggests anything like some here are saying. One key thing I see is a date. 2014.

Was there any indication of what reply Budd got from the Aussies?

Indeed. That would be interesting. If the Aussies were even asked.

[sollitt]

Originally Posted by raymond

Bruce; you have no idea what happens at the Executive level; so maybe you should keep your comments to what you know factually. There is authority for this to happen.
Once again; you take another opportunity to have a personal dig at me. Leave that to personal emails or phone calls; your airing of the personality diffuculties you have with me, on a forum that is just wanting to find more faults with the management of the sport; does not help.

Crunch, you have no idea what I know!

It's a shame that you've read my post as a personal dig. It was actually more a comment on a distasteful, divisive attitude that has pervaded successive executives for some years, and how you might stand up & challenge it.

You have, on numerous previous occasions, denied the existence of a wall of silence surrounding executive matters. You cannot have it both ways.

You may recall that I was among the small group whose lobbying, against the odds, saw you elected to your present role.
You are likely also aware that it was I who nominated you for the long overdue, much deserved, award you received a year or two back.
So it seems that it is not I who has a personality difficulty with you.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Bruce; you want the job of Vice-President, May is just around the corner, take your opportunity (again).

I'm waiting until next year.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

yes the current picture being painted is not good. but myself, and SBrick, plus a few others, also know the press is diigging deep into one side of the matter and getting a veiwpoint predominantly form either ST teams or drivers. as most of this information is unfounded (unless emails/ documents are produced), i remain impartial, but would appreciate FACTS. if some of these claims are true, then MSNZ's code of silence and conduct leaves a lot to be desired, and appropriate action needs to be taken



as i have been grouped previously, i'll have a stab:
NZST havn't so much as ruined the sport, but many involved were party to the ruination of top level car racing in NZ that has been ongoing for 10-ish years. many of these teams have been around long enough to know what works, but some of the same people are doing the same actions to bring their sport down again.

former marshall/ CotC/ scrutineer/ spectator. very rarely competitor (not circuit). 20+years involvment



personally, would like to see either:
ST reduce their ego and cubes and go back to 5.0l formula (as this could have some bearing on strained relationship with AV8SC ?) and allow TLX 5.0l car to run with them for a decent grid of 30+ cars

or
status quo big motors on their own and
20+ TLX cars on their own
and let the public decide fairly.

can fully appreciate that NZST have grown the way they have. a decent advertising campaign will do that, and that is one this MSNZ/TMC et al have failed on in the last 5-6 years to do.
for the first three rounds, i honestly thought the racing was crap and processional, but once a few engineers got their head around the cars, some decent racing ensued.
the constant rule bending and changing is not a good look, and neither is sniping to the press about track safety when JMac's car was clearly at fault.

MSNZ have failed miserably with TLX, even though i prefer the make-up of the class. this , in no way does this reflect on Mitchells for their involvement, but unfortunately, it dosn't look like it will get to required numbers to create a decent series (even though rumours of a group buy have been mentioned), to re-invigorate the paying public.
i love the new car, but i ain't paying to see 3 of them.

guys, lay some cards on the table, would love to he who is at fault in ALL sides of this fiasco.

Hey Joe, been out working all day and only just read this. I appreciate your honest comments, together with bricks. If your the smokin joe i think you are (as in ex-rally driver) i remember being sprayed with stones thru maramarua i think from your legacy!!! I was very young so i may have got some facts there jumbled up

I know in my perfect world, we would still have TLX cars being run at ST events, either alongside them (highly unlikely) or as a feeder (get rid of the TL's for good, they are too old school).

As you all know i am a big fan of the ST's and what they have done, but in saying that i do think there is merit to what the TLX has to offer (yes i know i have bagged it in the past, for reasons that i still believe are true), but truth is, there are some TLX cars out there. They are built in NZ, have a NZ built gearbox, and are not far off in performance to the ST.

To me this could follow the same model as Aussie, that is main game (ST's) and feeder is similarish cars (TLX).

I have mentioned this on here before and got slammed, probably becuase i dont know enough about the ins and outs of motorsport (and after reading all this stuff above, i am not sure if i want to be in the know), but in my silly little head this model works, and everyone gets a slice of the pie.

The stuff above this post, if its true, blows my mind it really does.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Hey Joe, been out working all day and only just read this. I appreciate your honest comments, together with bricks. If your the smokin joe i think you are (as in ex-rally driver) i remember being sprayed with stones thru maramarua i think from your legacy!!! I was very young so i may have got some facts there jumbled up

not me. just a lowly club man that tries to either enter/ navigate or help run at least one event per year. politics has killed all codes in this neck of the woods to the point i am considering severing my last tie to MSNZ permited motorsport, and having a crack at stockcar ownership. have helped a few guys with them, and they are a lot of maintenence but at least one can deliberately hit people........... in fact it's encouraged !!!!

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

The stuff above this post, if its true, blows my mind it really does.

yes, only if true. unfortunately, anyone can log-in and claim what ever they like, and it could be percieved as either gospel or blatent lies. too many unsubstantiated claims...... show us the proof !!

[NZSTfan]

I just assumed you were Smokin Joe McAndrew

Best of luck with the stock car....sounds fun to be honest, especially the bit about being encouraged to make contact.

Kinda the rugby of motorsport really

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

I just assumed you were Smokin Joe McAndrew

You assume a lot of fricking things.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

You assume a lot of fricking things.

Thanks for that constructive comment SM.

Back to snide remarks again i see.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Thanks for that constructive comment SM.

Back to snide remarks again i see.

Not at all but old boy but if you had read Smoking Joes posts over the past few years you would have known that he was not our former NZ Rally Champion nor was he one of the best centres that NZ rugby ever had nor was he the former heavyweight boxing champion of the world all of of whom were refered to as Smoking Joe.

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Not at all but old boy but if you had read Smoking Joes posts over the past few years you would have known that he was not our former NZ Rally Champion nor was he one of the best centres that NZ rugby ever had nor was he the former heavyweight boxing champion of the world all of of whom were refered to as Smoking Joe.

I only joined in march 2011 so am fairly new to the forum. ooops my bad!

Geez it was only a friendly enquiry. No need to get your undies in a twist there SM.

But thanks for the info, tis much appreciated. Although Joe did inform me of that long before you posted, so really a waste of time on your part dont you think?

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Not at all but old boy but if you had read Smoking Joes posts over the past few years you would have known that he was not our former NZ Rally Champion nor was he one of the best centres that NZ rugby ever had nor was he the former heavyweight boxing champion of the world all of of whom were refered to as Smoking Joe.

merely a twenty a day nicotine habit that increases to 30 a day when in southern mans company !!

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

merely a twenty a day nicotine habit that increases to 30 a day when in southern mans company !!

classic!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Club racer

it is Brian who should log on here and say he DIDN'T call the driver and DIDN'T threaten him.

Having pulled up one side of the divide over a posting, only fair to pull up the other side.

Brian has to do no such thing. This is an independent debating forum not connected in any way to either side. It is certainly not an official mouthpiece requiring officials to log in and explain themselves. There are official routes for that sort of thing and an allegation such as this should be taken through the proper channels for investigation.

And now to both sides, let me put in my twopenny worth as an independent observer with a lot of information available to me. I am frankly appalled at representatives of both sides, of clubs and of series management acting in a highly unprofessional way indulging in scandal-mongering, mud-slinging and malicious posting in order to make trouble for the other side. It is clear that some people are working together in cartel, some posters are the same people talking to themselves, and some people really shouldn't be on here, but at least while I know who they are I don't have to waste time checking up. This is happening on behalf(?) of both camps and at a level of seniority I find frankly amazing.

It's pathetic. It's childish. If your intention is to give motor racing in New Zealand a bad reputation you are succeeding. If I were a sponsor or potential entrant I would be finding another sport or another country. You would all be best advised shutting up in public and taking this to your relevant clubs, boards and representatives.

[Worsel]

Wooley, I couldn't agree more. This sort of tacky debate has done NOTHING to try and resolve the problems within the management of the sport. It is up to the member clubs to demand the changes needed

[Club racer]

Fair enough Woolley.

It's frustrating for the fans watching motorsport in this country be led in this way though. Bad stuff is happening all the time, it finds its way onto the forums and all of a sudden 'it didn't happen' and 'you have to prove that'. Agree that it needs to stop, but it needs to stop on both sides and on here too. When you get absorbed in this forum, you find that most of the negativity towards V8ST comes in the form of unprovoked attacks or posts put in just to wind people up.

Just check out some of the posts about engine failures which casually and consistently ALWAYS forget that the vast majority of engines ran reliably all season. And just when it seems the debate is about THE RACING, along comes one of the posters to spoil it. It seems to me that counter-attacks by people who like RACING are always provoked by something from the pro -MSNZ approach. That is just my opinion though.

The fact is, the thing is in crisis and everything you say is true. Whichever way you cut it, the job of a governing body is to fix that. And they aren't. Hence a great degree of frustration on the part of the fans. There are plenty who post on here who are simply not fans and who are more interested in the brakes being put on their gravy train. It seems strange to me also that people who have been banned are permitted to sign up again and get stuck in. I may be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure you implied that in a recent post of yours. It should be the person banned, not the pseudonym.

It's your forum though, and your rules.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Fair enough Woolley.

It's frustrating for the fans watching motorsport in this country be led in this way though. Bad stuff is happening all the time, it finds its way onto the forums and all of a sudden 'it didn't happen' and 'you have to prove that'. Agree that it needs to stop, but it needs to stop on both sides and on here too. When you get absorbed in this forum, you find that most of the negativity towards V8ST comes in the form of unprovoked attacks or posts put in just to wind people up.

Just check out some of the posts about engine failures which casually and consistently ALWAYS forget that the vast majority of engines ran reliably all season. And just when it seems the debate is about THE RACING, along comes one of the posters to spoil it. It seems to me that counter-attacks by people who like RACING are always provoked by something from the pro -MSNZ approach. That is just my opinion though.

The fact is, the thing is in crisis and everything you say is true. Whichever way you cut it, the job of a governing body is to fix that. And they aren't. Hence a great degree of frustration on the part of the fans. There are plenty who post on here who are simply not fans and who are more interested in the brakes being put on their gravy train. It seems strange to me also that people who have been banned are permitted to sign up again and get stuck in. I may be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure you implied that in a recent post of yours. It should be the person banned, not the pseudonym.

It's your forum though, and your rules.

Nicely put Club Racer. I was just thinking the same thing. My level of involvement these days is as a paying fan, I pay to see good events and I don't go to ones that don't interest me.

As a fan and as someone who has been around a while, I got increasingly frustrated with the way TMC was running the decreasingly interesting Tier 1 series, so when ST came along, and a lot of the drivers I knew and respected went with it, I was excited at the prospect of a new start in great new cars with a decent smattering of internationals as well.

I have not been disappointed with a V8ST event that I have been to and I am looking forward to this weekend, for which I have bought tickets already.

I generally try and post points that are either things I've heard about what's going on, or ask constructive questions about things I don't know about, or try to give feedback where I think fit. I have given positive feedback on the look and sound of some of the new TLX cars (the Camry and the Ford particularly) and been interested in hearing how they got things done. I have questioned the number of entrants in that class though and whether it has a future in its current form. I don't apologise for any of that.

The problem is, as Clubbie says, that there are a few posters that repeatedly come on here, never post anything positive at all, and simply seem to be wanting to wind people up, or accuse them of being liars. This invariably provokes the response they want and the mud-slinging starts. Frankly I wonder if all threads on touring cars in NZ should be closed down like in the past, and no new ones permitted, as it just doesn't seem worth the hassle a lot of the time.

The third point that I want to make is that from all the information that has come to light (from very reliable and varied sources) about the behaviour of some members of MNZ officialdom or those affiliated with them in some way, towards ST is just astounding, and those people should take a look at themselves, their mandate, the constitution and ask themselves what they are actually doing in their roles, because it sure doesn't seem like supporting the growth of the sport to me - in fact it is more likely to destroy it as more disaffected people walk away from it and go sailing or biking instead. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

You may not personally approve of the way ST came about, but I suspect if you put yourselves in the position of one of the frustrated ones who walked away you might understand why it happened. It has injected a huge amount of money into the sport and is a multi-million dollar business, something that seemed to be impossible when it was in the hands of TMC. If you bring that down through your actions, those people won't come back into your fold, they will simply do something else.

The fact is that ST have brought a whole lot of new interest from the public that simply wasn't there before - check out the Speedcafe poll the other day, asking whether MSNZ should have allowed ST's to race at Pukekohe with the SC's. It was over 10 to 1 in favour, so why not give the people what they actually want? On the face of it, it just seems like you don't want to lose control of your patch. How about you prove me wrong.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Worsel

It is up to the member clubs to demand the changes needed

If you had read many of the posts and also the thread heading, you will probably have noted that one of the major frustrations is that the ordinary paid up club member and also the ordinary licenced competitor has little or no influence on the running of the sport.

This forum and those like it provide a valuable service in as much as they are an opportunity for the rank and file to be heard.

When any car club rep is speaking or voting at conference on behalf of several hundred members or 15, the problems are the same. He can't do so accurately.

Sadly some posters have their own axe to grind that are nothing whatever to do with this thread, but the fact that some of our elected representatives read what is posted on here and in some cases, have the courage to actively debate the issues, is good, as it also means the rank and file are listened to.

Healthy debate is good and those who do not understand the reason for the thread should take their squabbles eleswhere.

Much has been aired on here that is enlightening - especially when you trust the source or the contributor.

Long may this thread continue - or at least until such times as the wheels are securely locked on, but as long as it is just one vote for one club and those most affected by any decisions have no real say, then problems will continue and we need a platform.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by socram

Healthy debate is good and those who do not understand the reason for the thread should take their squabbles eleswhere.

Quite happy with that, and happy with this thread continuing in that line.

I should have noted that some posters manage to be concise, informative and polite throughout and I'm pleased to acknowledge their input. There are clearly issues to be debated and settled.

Others simply want to make trouble and are behaving appallingly. I think the phrase is 'bringing the sport into disrepute'.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Club racer

Bad stuff is happening all the time, it finds its way onto the forums and all of a sudden 'it didn't happen' and 'you have to prove that'. Agree that it needs to stop, but it needs to stop on both sides and on here too.

sorry fella but their are far to many unsusbstainiated scandalous rumours. if you ain't gonna put a name behind the post, then it is a lie until proven otherwise.

Originally Posted by Club racer

When you get absorbed in this forum, you find that most of the negativity towards V8ST comes in the form of unprovoked attacks or posts put in just to wind people up.

likewise with anti-MSNZ/TLX etc. pot, kettle, black

Originally Posted by Club racer

Just check out some of the posts about engine failures which casually and consistently ALWAYS forget that the vast majority of engines ran reliably all season. And just when it seems the debate is about THE RACING, along comes one of the posters to spoil it. It seems to me that counter-attacks by people who like RACING are always provoked by something from the pro -MSNZ approach. That is just my opinion though.

fact, engines failed. fact, gearboxes failed on NZST. are we not alowed to take the **** about the longetivity of these engines, just like Mark Petch did in the promo video ??
rumour of major gearbox issues with TLX.... where the proof apart from a linkage issue??


on whole, i would go on the record and say most of the negativity is from the pro-NZST brigade, and more often than not the rumours and scandelous attacks come from them when their camp is all but happy.


both series/ cars /administrators have major issues that need to be addressed and each side needs to stick to their own game plan or find another game.

as far as i'm concerned the only thing that entices me to TLX is it is Toyota powered by Toyota , therefore a touring car replica/shiloette, if powered by a Chevy......it's an OSCA.

[Goat Boy]

Completely disagree with almost every point made by Joe I'm afraid.

And if someone is party to information but for various reasons cannot make the details public, that does not automatically make it a lie, just an unproven statement.

A lie is a deliberate act of deception. I have no doubt there are plenty posted up here, but not generally from the people who say they have the information but cannot divulge details.

Otherwise you are calling Shaun, Drakey, et al liars, and I can assure you that is not the case.

We will see on Friday whether the recent press release from MSNZ that they hoped to sanction ST's before Round 1 is a lie though, won't we?

[Swedish Brick]

A lie or a mistake? Where's the press release you refer to? As the only one seen here (posted by Sommersby) contains only one date. 2014.

Also Joe appears to be quite correct.

[nistfan]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

A lie or a mistake? Where's the press release you refer to? As the only one seen here (posted by Sommersby) contains only one date. 2014.

Also Joe appears to be quite correct.

Can you show us "Joe appears to be quite correct" or is that a lie?

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

A lie or a mistake? Where's the press release you refer to? As the only one seen here (posted by Sommersby) contains only one date. 2014.

Also Joe appears to be quite correct.

Here is the article from Speedcafe:

Governing body close to ratifying V8ST as NZ’s premier category
Thursday 10th January, 2013 3:50am
Author: Gordon Lomas ©


V8 SuperTourers at Ruapuna. Pic: iMMage. Alex Mitchell
V8 SuperTourers are confident of officially being recognised as the premier class in New Zealand by the country’s governing body ahead of its second season kicking off next month.

Following a round of complicated but promising peace talks between MotorsportNZ, NZV8s and V8 SuperTourers in Wellington, there are signs that the destructive division within the V8 tin top classes is close to being glued back together.

V8 SuperTourers managing director Mark Petch said he was confident that the rebel series which enjoyed a successful maiden season in 2012 will be granted official endorsement by MSNZ as the New Zealand’s premier class.

“Yes that’s the agreement we have in principle,” Petch told Speedcafe.co.nz

“I’m extremely confident this will happen (before the V8ST opening round at Hampton Downs from February 16-17.”A MotorsportNZ release generated following the Wellington peace talks indicated that all parties were constructively working in the right direction to come up with solutions. However there are still bumps in the road with many delicate issues to resolve.

Greg Lancaster, who along with Lyall Williamson and Stephen Gillard, was elected on a new board to steer the NZV8 ship out of troubled water admitted to having concerns about how the category will be portrayed publicly in the immediate future.

The NZV8 category is a shadow of what it once was with only nine entries, which include three new generation TLX cars, received for the opening round on the undercard to the Toyota Racing Series at Teretonga this weekend.

The series which will finish on the Aussie V8 Supercar program at Pukekohe from April 12-14 is too well entrenched to be re-organised, leaving its officials to handle what is left of the series in 2013 before unification next year.

In 2014 the NZV8s will officially run as the main support class to the V8 SuperTourers but there remains serious doubt as to the future of the five freshly built TLX cars.

“The only thing that really concerns me is at Teretonga this weekend and the following weekend at Timaru is it’s almost an embarrassment to the sport (low entry numbers) but we have just got to work our way through it,” Lancaster told Speedcafe.co.nz

“(In terms of NZV8s for 2013) nothing can be done about that. It’s too late. In terms of a full-blown reconciliation, it won’t be until the first round of February 2014.

The malaise means that the five new generation NZV8s could very well be orphaned down the track. Three of the cars are running at Teretonga with one still being built and the other electing to bypass the first few rounds.

“It has been decided that parity cannot be achieved between those and the existing car so therefore unfortunately we don’t have a home for them,” Lancaster admitted.

The end to the cannibalism of the V8 classes means that commercially the sport stands a decent chance of prospering, a relief for many in the industry who have been appalled at its self-destruction.

So that is why people are expecting that the series should be ratified before this weekend, at the MNZ meeting on Friday. Whilst MNZ have not publicly said they will do it by then word for word, they had obviously given the impression that this is the case.

Joe is correct in some of the "facts" he posted, but not in his assumptions made thereafter.