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15 Jul 2019, 19:55 (Ref:3917901) | #1326 | |
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Trying to make cars overtake without DRS would be a start
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15 Jul 2019, 19:59 (Ref:3917903) | #1327 | ||
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15 Jul 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3917915) | #1328 | ||
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I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills. |
15 Jul 2019, 20:48 (Ref:3917917) | #1329 | |
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A start to fixing F1’s problems
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15 Jul 2019, 20:58 (Ref:3917922) | #1330 | ||
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What problems are those?
We just had a couple of great races. Despite Merc driving off into the distance and the top three teams dominating. Despite DRS and outwash and fragile tyres. So if we can have great races despite all those things still being with us, what exactly is the problem? |
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I like taking pictures of cars going round tracks, through forests and up hills. |
15 Jul 2019, 21:01 (Ref:3917924) | #1331 | |
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The problem is DRS is an artificial way to create overtaking and requires little skill compared to passing without it
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15 Jul 2019, 21:23 (Ref:3917929) | #1332 | ||
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If you want pure, you probably need to go back to the original Olympia, except competitors probably cheated there too. |
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15 Jul 2019, 21:26 (Ref:3917930) | #1333 | |
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That sounds like a bit of a cop out. Overtaking used to be about skill. Now most of the time it’s about pushing a button and the rulemakers having to decide where best to use it and for how long
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15 Jul 2019, 21:53 (Ref:3917937) | #1334 | ||
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Of course there is skill involved but overtaking is also a function of power and aerodynamics.
Buttons vs pedals is also be an issue of semantics no? While i also think its all artificial, i think we can all agree a better balance needs to be found...not just for a race or two but over seasons. |
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15 Jul 2019, 22:22 (Ref:3917946) | #1335 | |
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I think if the car has more power, it’s a question of when it will get past. If two cars have equal performance, 9 times out of 10, it should be a matter of if
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15 Jul 2019, 22:41 (Ref:3917950) | #1336 | ||
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DRS was a response to a rabid section of F1 "fans" and media who led or who've been led to believe that there were hundreds of overtakes on every lap. There weren't. Hundreds of overtakes per race was an extreme. Overtaking used to be about skill, with a massive amount of money/power/engine/ aero/tyres/fuel to boot. It's arguably more about skill now and less of the others, in the main. While F1 isn't an endurance race, it's also not a sprint. Hopefully it never will be |
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16 Jul 2019, 07:08 (Ref:3917964) | #1337 | |
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If there is a genuine possibility to improve the sport AND entertainment value of a championship, why not pursue it? Irrespective of how it was or was not a few decades ago seen through rose painted glasses or not. Or what many fans scream. I don't think that is overly relevant for the question if a change gives a good "return of investment"; having the desired result, without having too much negative side effects.
You do however have to clear picture of what the desired result is. For that you need an objective rulemaker with a keen understanding of motorsport. If the 2021 rule changes are effective and cars can follow each other more closely I personally expect the following (among other things): 1 F1 needs a "regime" to quickly and acutely judge and adjust the desired DRS strength. This can be either by adjusting the length of the DRS zones or have a system where the DRS device can be set to different levels. 2 I expect much more accidents, contacts, pieces of carbon and flat tyres. Personally I would be surprised if the riders would be instantly able to cope with the changed reality of being so close to each other for so much longer. Now it's often: I risk or not, side by side racing would require much more subtle and precise race craft. After a while I think it will settle a bit, but response might be that the amount of fragile parts on the cars will be reduced. |
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Constructive discussion: A conversion where participants are maximally open to yet critical of each others (and their own) arguments, with the intend of enhancing the knowledge, understanding and/or handling of it's subject. |
16 Jul 2019, 07:31 (Ref:3917966) | #1338 | |
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Let's also get rid of compulsory pitstops and let drivers and teams choose their strategy to see fit. It would make things more interesting and easier to follow
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16 Jul 2019, 08:08 (Ref:3917968) | #1339 | |
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It was a reaction in the main to Alonso losing the title by not being able to overtake a far slower car.
I think it's an exaggeration to say people wanted it because they thought there were loads of overtakes in the "good old days". The perception (and that's all that matters) was that overtakes pre-DRS were earned. The issue with F1 and it's biggest one by far is the aero dependency and the DRS was a short term fix to get around that but, as usual, they've danced around the basic problem at the core of F1 so it's still here. Being in front is so massively important in F1 becase the teams develop cars that run in clear air and lose out massively in dirty air. Only one can be in front so all the cars that aren't are at a disadvantage straight away. The DRS is a (poor) way of addressing that. Of course what they should be doing is developing the rules so that a car behind can corner just as fast as the car in front or only marginally slower and then be able to use a traditional slipstream and outbraking move to overtake. I'm struggling to think of any other motor racing series where the car behind is at such a disadvantage. |
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16 Jul 2019, 08:14 (Ref:3917969) | #1340 | |||
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Make as many or as few pitstops as you like Use whatever tyres you like (from those made available by the tyre supplier) Use whatever engine you like, within a specified fuel allowance. (This could have worked in the past when the main variables were only no of cylinders and capacity. Maybe not now with hybrids.) Although writing the rules would be difficult, the area I would like to severely restrict freedom would be aerodynamics. Downforce aerodynamics is a field that exists nowhere except on racing cars, and it is counter to exciting racing. Any body (like a car) moving through the air leaves a wake of low pressure turbulent air behind it. The low pressure bit of it helps the car behind by reducing drag and thus creating speed. Unfortunately that is more than cancelled out by the turbulence which reduces downforce for the following car and prevents it getting close in the corners and braking areas. |
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16 Jul 2019, 08:26 (Ref:3917970) | #1341 | ||
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Underbody aero has and always will be the key, however the F1 glitterati have been reluctant to pursue it for some unsubstantiated reason. Coupled with a massive cull in the upper surface aero, it might be enough to bring back good racing to a slowly dying series (in my opinion).
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16 Jul 2019, 14:21 (Ref:3918017) | #1342 | |
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Alain Prost said recently on C4’s coverage that he would like to go back to the days when drivers could run different compounds on their car at the same time and I think that would be a good move. Would open up a bit more variety in car performance
Really we need to look at underbody downforce. Of course we had a problem in the early 80s where it became too dangerous, but it can work well, as we saw with GP2 and CART |
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16 Jul 2019, 16:31 (Ref:3918032) | #1343 | ||
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What passes for a governing body should take a step back, stop listening to the self interest of the teams , stop fiddling round the edges, tear up the section of the rule book entitled 'penalties ' , accept that faster isn't always better, realise that only folk who don't get out enough give a damn about pit stop algorithms , undercuts and overcuts, and that not even they care very much about which tyres wear out quickest.
What do we like ? Fast , noisy , spectacular cars which slide about a bit, which place driver skill at a premium so overtaking isn't easy, but can be effected without silly DRS or pit stops. Where do we want it ? On exciting racetracks - Spa , Monaco, Monza , Suzuka, Austin etc - with big local crowds. Where don't we want it? On vanilla Tilke circuits in countries where local oligarchs , and kleptocrats use a GP as nationalist willy waving , and where only 20 expats and a stray dog turn up to watch . And not in places where being gay , indulging in extramarital sex or looking at the supreme leader in a funny way gets you banged up without any of those milquetoast privileges we get in the UK - y'know - access to a lawyer and translator, a fair trial , and all that old school kinda thing ? |
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17 Jul 2019, 07:55 (Ref:3918106) | #1344 | |
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The governing body are looking to ground effect in 2021 which is a move in the right direction. The mock up of the cars looks good too
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17 Jul 2019, 11:27 (Ref:3918136) | #1345 | ||
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I think this is great.
Obviously curious how this will fit in with proposed approaches to cost cutting/budget caps but also fascinated with the new technical challenge and adaptability the teams will have to exhibit. Interesting times ahead. And yeah, less wings and bits should make the cars look nicer as well. |
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21 Jul 2019, 12:32 (Ref:3918721) | #1346 | ||
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We look back on the Golden Era of the early 2000s. Noisy engines. No DRS. Testing. No hybrids.
Heaven. Except on Facebook we read.... "On this day in 2002 (July 21st) Michael Schumacher wrapped up his fifth WDC." Now where did I put my rose-tinted spectacles? Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk |
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21 Jul 2019, 12:46 (Ref:3918722) | #1347 | ||
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yes, you need rose tinted to describe early 2000s as a golden era
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21 Jul 2019, 13:19 (Ref:3918725) | #1348 | |
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My prediction is nothing can be done to stop the decline of F1. Motor sport is on the decline and F1 is part of motor sport. Every major series of motor sport is losing popularity, can anyone point out a major category that isn't or maybe two or three? Fixing the structure and reducing costs will not haul back the huge losses of followers to F1 or any other category. An exception to the above is FE but when you start from nothing there has to be an improvement in the fan base.
Changing the structure of F1 will (might) make the present fan base happy for a while but let's look at the satisfaction graph at the end of 2021 and I bet there will be a huge amount of criticism from some parts of the crowd. It would be interesting to see some graphical illustrations of how the fan base has dropped in the last ten years but I would not know where to look or if it even exists. Do the drop off numbers exceed the present fan base? |
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22 Jul 2019, 07:38 (Ref:3918799) | #1349 | ||
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Electric is not the way forward....
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22 Jul 2019, 08:33 (Ref:3918806) | #1350 | |
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No, leave that to FE
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