[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[321Go]

It's ok people, it was only a prototype tyre, and will not be used again. Phew!

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlin.../12/15353.html


Pirelli now have to back to HQ and design a tyre that will last 75% race distance at 75% speed. This is to keep the teams that voted not to have two compulsory pit stops next year, with tyres that could be pushed at 100% speed between stops, happy. Slow and steady, with just one stop, wins the race they say.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

indeed and really happy that NR walked away unhurt all be it with some dirty drawers.

side note i love how people still think deleting something from twitter makes it disappear...once a comment is out there it is out there as seen by numerous news sites quoting the deleted post.

These Pirelli bozos are going to hurt someone if they don't stop trading on the sheer dumb luck they have had so far!

This is just pathetic!

[321Go]

Originally Posted by wnut

These Pirelli bozos are going to hurt someone if they don't stop trading on the sheer dumb luck they have had so far!

This is just pathetic!

Not Pirelli's fault. They have been given a set of parameters to build to. A set of parameters that no other tyre manufacturer in F1 has ever had to deal with. I think, be it Perelli, Bridgestone, Michelin or any other tyre manufacturer, we would probably be in a similar position.


In saying that, been thinking... what if. What if Nico Rosberg was seriously hurt, or the crash was fatal, driving on a set of prototype tyres? How would the F1 world react? Who would take the blame? FOM? FIA? Pirelli? Other?

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by 321Go

In saying that, been thinking... what if. What if Nico Rosberg was seriously hurt, or the crash was fatal, driving on a set of prototype tyres? How would the F1 world react? Who would take the blame? FOM? FIA? Pirelli? Other?

That's what happened to Mark Donahue and the main result was that his wife won a product liability suit against Goodyear and there was a little more push for circuit safety. Of course they was quite a while ago.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Not Pirelli's fault. They have been given a set of parameters to build to. A set of parameters that no other tyre manufacturer in F1 has ever had to deal with. I think, be it Perelli, Bridgestone, Michelin or any other tyre manufacturer, we would probably be in a similar position.


In saying that, been thinking... what if. What if Nico Rosberg was seriously hurt, or the crash was fatal, driving on a set of prototype tyres? How would the F1 world react? Who would take the blame? FOM? FIA? Pirelli? Other?

I strongly disagree with you here 321Go!

This is 100% Pirelli's fault and responsibility!

They are the "experts", and it is their responsibility to make sure the tyres are safe!

The FIA tasked them with making tyres that lost grip in a particular distance, nobody ever gave them approval to build tyres that burst, explode or delaminate, and they should have the expertise to see that this does not happen. It is both reckless and unacceptable from Pirelli, it is not even like they are competing against anyone!

[Adam43]

The world is an odd place. How did we get to this situation.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The world is an odd place. How did we get to this situation.

This is what generally happens when you grant somebody a monopoly.

[321Go]

Originally Posted by wnut

This is 100% Pirelli's fault and responsibility!

Disagree.

Question. Ferrari's engine blows up during a race. Who's to be blamed? 99.9% will blame Ferrari. And I'm pretty sure you would too. Right? Pretty sure everyone would too. I would.

Further investigation proves it was a problem with the oil, or a bearing, or a piston. But 100% of the blames lies with Ferrari. They pushed their suppliers to deliver a product to meet Ferrari's specific needs. At least these components can be well and truly real world tested before they go in the engine. What real world testing does Pirelli have access to outside of the races? None.

And come 2014, hardly any real world testing would have been done before the tyres are put on the cars for Melbourne. I say hardly any because during pre season testing, I doubt any team will push their cars 100%. I'm guessing Pirelli will go very conservative, and it will be a one stop race in Melbourne 2014.

FOM tasked Pirelli to build a tyre that would require 2 or 3 (or even 4) stops during a race. Pirelli did as requested. Teams then decided to build cars that could go further than the tyres were designed for, albeit at a conservative pace, and do just one stop. So is that Pirelli's fault? No. The rules state that at least one change of tyre compound must happen during a race. Just one stop. Who makes the rules? Pirelli? Nope. Build a tyre so teams have to do 2 or 3 stops, but they only do one. Hmmm.. sounds like a recipe to 'blow up' in your face.

If FOM wants 2 or 3 stops during a race, then make it mandatory by implementing it in the rules. Surely Pirelli can then build a tyre that can be pushed at 100% for at least 50% of race distance?? If they cannot, then they should leave the sport immediately. But I don't think Pirelli would have any trouble at all. Pirelli, or any other tyre manufacturer is in the game of building tyres that lasts as long as possible, with as much grip as possible. FOM throws them a task of doing almost the opposite of what a tyre manufacturer has been R&D'ing for as long as they have been in the game. A tyre that has 100% grip, but falls off at a very (very) rapid rate after only a short distance?? IMO, Pirelli have done well given the circumstances given.

Bridgestone was also given the same task back in 2009, in an effort to introduce a similar tyre to what is used in the sport today for the 2011 season. But decided to leave the sport end of 2010 because it "aims to cut costs and streamline research and development efforts." Bridgestone did not want to spend money on a product that was not beneficial to them, or their image. Pirelli took it on at the request of FOM. Pirelli should be commended for taking on the project. Even though they were very aware it was not the best portrayal of their product to a world audience.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

These Pirelli bozos are going to hurt someone if they don't stop trading on the sheer dumb luck they have had so far!

This is just pathetic!

While I share some frustration, I think "bozos" is a rather disingenuous remark.....

[andy666]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

While I share some frustration, I think "bozos" is a rather disingenuous remark.....

While I share the frustration , I think "bozos" is the correct remark .

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

While I share some frustration, I think "bozos" is a rather disingenuous remark.....

Pirelli have now had numerous clear warnings that their tyres are likely to cause a fatality, yet they continue to supply tyres that exhibit the same critical life threatening faults!

How would you describe a company who recklessly continues to endanger other peoples lives then Jeremy?

[Greem]

I'm pretty sure Goodyear, Bridgestone, Michelin (and others) suffered testing failures in the past - but they weren't newsworthy because of the amount of testing being done.

Pirelli are in an impossible situation, not engineered by them. They get criticism for making tyres that fall apart (which they were contracted to do), for making tyres that don't (after world+dog had a go about safety), for testing new tyres (which has happened for years behind closed doors) and if they were to pack up and leave the same people having a go will vilify them for being spineless.

Look beyond Pirelli. The entire edifice that is F1 is crumbling, but those in a position to do something about it are eating caviar and sipping Mumm champagne while being told it's all just peachy.

The tyres are a symptom. The cause needs to be dealt with, not the collection of festering sores.

[Marbot]

Good post.

Goodyear, Michelin, Bridgestone, and others, all had tyre failures at some time or another. Ironically, Michelin's high speed 'Indy' failure had Rosberg needing more than just a change of underwear, which that lead to the farce that was to follow, and all of that after a squillion miles of research and testing! Anyone would think that most F1 fans only began watching F1 from the start of the 2006 season.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Greem

I'm pretty sure Goodyear, Bridgestone, Michelin (and others) suffered testing failures in the past - but they weren't newsworthy because of the amount of testing being done.

Pirelli are in an impossible situation, not engineered by them. They get criticism for making tyres that fall apart (which they were contracted to do), for making tyres that don't (after world+dog had a go about safety), for testing new tyres (which has happened for years behind closed doors) and if they were to pack up and leave the same people having a go will vilify them for being spineless.

Look beyond Pirelli. The entire edifice that is F1 is crumbling, but those in a position to do something about it are eating caviar and sipping Mumm champagne while being told it's all just peachy.

The tyres are a symptom. The cause needs to be dealt with, not the collection of festering sores.

Spot on Greem! Let's all face the facts, F1 has lost it's way....

Originally Posted by wnut

Pirelli have now had numerous clear warnings that their tyres are likely to cause a fatality, yet they continue to supply tyres that exhibit the same critical life threatening faults!

How would you describe a company who recklessly continues to endanger other peoples lives then Jeremy?

Motor racing is a dangerous sport wnut ! it's not the first and won't be the last time a tyre fails..The tyre's being used were an experimental compound and will not be used again..

Bridgestone had literally hundreds of hours of testing when they were supplying F1, Pirelli on the other hand have had none in comparison..

Originally Posted by Marbot

Good post.

Goodyear, Michelin, Bridgestone, and others, all had tyre failures at some time or another. Ironically, Michelin's high speed 'Indy' failure had Rosberg needing more than just a change of underwear, which that lead to the farce that was to follow, and all of that after a squillion miles of research and testing! Anyone would think that most F1 fans only began watching F1 from the start of the 2006 season.

Indeed, again spot on !

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

Pirelli have now had numerous clear warnings that their tyres are likely to cause a fatality, yet they continue to supply tyres that exhibit the same critical life threatening faults!

How would you describe a company who recklessly continues to endanger other peoples lives then Jeremy?

But you can't blame Pirelli for this. When Bridgestone and Michelin were in F1 (Goodyear too for that matter) the teams were doing unlimited testing which would have allowed the tyre suppliers to iron out any problems. Pirelli are contracted to making tyres that don't last, they'd make tyres that last 2 races if that's what the contract stipulated.

Trouble for Pirelli is, or was, back in the summer, was the fact that their tyres were disintegrating left right and centre yet, because Lotus and Force India could make the tyres last , Pirelli couldn't get 100% approval to make them safer for every other team.

I personally think that, at that stage, they should have told F1 that they were pulling out with immediate effect unless they could make tyres that they were happy to allow to be raced on.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by andy666

While I share the frustration , I think "bozos" is the correct remark .

How dare you compare Bozo the Clown with Pirelli; he's a much cherished childhood icon of mine.

Serioulsy though, Pirelli have been given a mandate to produce a certain type of tyre and though another failure has't happened for a while, the fact that this has happened again must put into question the way the tyre is constructed in the first place.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Serioulsy though, Pirelli have been given a mandate to produce a certain type of tyre and though another failure has't happened for a while, the fact that this has happened again must put into question the way the tyre is constructed in the first place.

How do Pirelli develope a tyre that's not meant to last, yet doesn't fail ? The last failure I can remember (pre Rosberg testing failure) is Perez's at Korea but that was brought about by how deep he locked up into the preceding corner.

[chillibowl]

In fairness we don't know how the tires were being used and it wouldn't be the first time Merc played around using them outside their recommended window but imo Pirelli don't get to indefinitely use the 'I just did what I was told' card.

they were picked because of their expertise and three years in they are well aware of the difficulties and have knowingly chosen to be on this experimental path and are more than happy to accept the commercial benefits associated by being in F1.

Hopefully more testing will help them identify where they have made mistakes.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

How dare you compare Bozo the Clown with Pirelli; he's a much cherished childhood icon of mine.

Serioulsy though, Pirelli have been given a mandate to produce a certain type of tyre and though another failure has't happened for a while, the fact that this has happened again must put into question the way the tyre is constructed in the first place.

Bozo the Clown works for Pirelli !

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

In fairness we don't know how the tires were being used and it wouldn't be the first time Merc played around using them outside their recommended window but imo Pirelli don't get to indefinitely use the 'I just did what I was told' card.

they were picked because of their expertise and three years in they are well aware of the difficulties and have knowingly chosen to be on this experimental path and are more than happy to accept the commercial benefits associated by being in F1.

Hopefully more testing will help them identify where they have made mistakes.

Spot on sir.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mr V

How do Pirelli develope a tyre that's not meant to last, yet doesn't fail ? The last failure I can remember (pre Rosberg testing failure) is Perez's at Korea but that was brought about by how deep he locked up into the preceding corner.

There's the rub but it can't be impossible. Bridgestone/Firestone have made a very good race tyre over the years for CART/IndyCar and still do and the tyre is raced on a greater variety of tracks and surfaces than F1. I wonder if the problem is down to the design and construction of Pirelli's tyre compared to the Bridgestone/Firestone tyre?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by andy666

Bozo the Clown works for Pirelli !

He does not. This is slander.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There's the rub but it can't be impossible. Bridgestone/Firestone have made a very good race tyre over the years for CART/IndyCar and still do and the tyre is raced on a greater variety of tracks and surfaces than F1. I wonder if the problem is down to the design and construction of Pirelli's tyre compared to the Bridgestone/Firestone tyre?

The Bridgestone/Firestone must be of a stronger construction given the loads on the banking and we all know how catastrophic a failure on ovals can be. The point is, Pirelli could quite easily make tyres that reliable, but they haven't been asked to. In fact, I should imagine that they are the first company in sporting history to be asked not to have made something that will last as long as possible.

[wnut]

http://www.pitpass.com/50670/The-Pirelli-Problem

"Pirelli can afford to be conservative with its development - it should be conservative with its development - because there is simply nothing to be gained and legal precedent as a result of Donohue's crash if it gets it wrong."

Bozos!

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He does not. This is slander.

Clowns aren't putting anyone's life at risk.