USCC (leave your axe outside)

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

But those teams will be essential to the new version of uSCR launched in 2016---either composing a large part of the successful new prototype class, or the force which kills the series by demanding DPs continue.

Yes, just like two certain teams that are stubborn to change. In an ideal world, I think ACO/FIA/IMSA should adopt the chassis plan from Super GT and DTM, then modify it to fit as either a DP or an LMP.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

I'm not sure if you're proposing a GT only series here or what. Why would the GT cars need to be sped up if they're the top class?

And why do you take as gospel everything Ryan said in the interview except the part about where he said the DP's could be sped up without spending a huge amount of money?

DP cars are faster than GTE cars at every track they race, as is. Look at the lap times. And they are running the spec Conti tires. Why would a spec tire manufacturer make it a priority to make "fast" tires, over consistent and durable tires when they are not competing with another tire manufacturer? Ryan said the DP's could probably be sped up 2 seconds a lap just with faster tires.

And why do you not consider the addition of 13-15 cars and the teams running them as bringing something to the table? Would these teams attempt to run GTE without factory help behind them? What cars would they run? Old Corvette's and Porsches, or would everyone run a 458?

And how is the Corvette DP not promoting brand identity? It obviously takes styling cues from a Corvette, certainly as much as the old Corvette GTP from IMSA days, or the abandoned Le Mans EVO rules from which it was clearly influenced and it even runs a Chevy V8 just like a Corvette and in fact the name "Corvette" is used to identify the car. How is this not brand identification? The current Gen 3 DP bodywork rules are based on allowing brands to put identifiable bodies on the cars, otherwise they never would have put the draggy upright noses on them.

And is it really that much worse than taking a Corvette, removing and replacing every single piece of the car, dumbing down the engine to produce less power than a real Corvette, and then putting a body on it that somewhat resembles a street Corvette?

And what about Ford, BMW, and Audi's involvement in USCR prototype next year. How do we know what kind of commitment they have made to "brand identification" to say their efforts are without merit?

Yes, I am proposing a GT-only series. I'm also proposing a slight performance increase in GTE by increasing inlet restrictor size so that they meet or exceed the performance of DP. I don't agree with the idea that the premier class just has to be faster than the other classes. If that's the case, use Sports 2000 regulations for the top class (since all the manufacturers seem to have a four banger motor in the 2 liter range) and call it good. I want the cars to be exciting and DPs are not.

I agree with Ryan's opinion that if Extreme hadn't bought two LMP2 cars, it would have been DPs-only in USCR and that the status quo would have continued, i.e. no change to the DP formula other than bodywork. As I've said before, if DPs were actually exciting, as in at least current P2 performance, but ideally approaching P1 performance, I wouldn't care about the tube-frames and general lack of technology. Ryan believes that DP needed to be sped up, regardless of the buy-out. I agree.

Yes, GTE cars are heavily modified, but they still look like their street counterparts. You don't have to have CORVETTE in 10 foot tall letters on a GTE Vette for the casual fan to be able to identify it as a Vette. The Vette DP had to have special bodywork designed to make it appear "Vette-like". This wouldn't matter to me if DPs performed SIGNIFICANTLY higher than GTE. You're saying that a DP in its current form will always beat a current GTE car on every track every time? Ryan says that there are some tracks where a GTE car would beat a DP. Several posters have said the same thing.

The current situation is that DPs have to have new bodywork, which costs money, to create brand identity. They are also getting new engine regs to allow this crazy new technology called turbocharging, which costs money. The cars can't be raced in any other series. This wouldn't be a point of contention with me, except that these changes are to accommodate a formula (DP) that is barely faster than GTE, a class that ALREADY has brand identity, enough tech to somewhat satisfy tech fetishists like me, and low enough cost for relatively easy access to cars. I'm not sure about BMW, but aren't all the GTE cars available to any customer who'll write a check? GTE cars can be raced in MULTIPLE series as-is.

An earlier poster stated that one of the things that DP brings to the table is "control". I agree. If you force a team to buy a car that cannot be used in any other series in order to compete in the top category of your series, you have done a LOT to make sure that team sticks around, even if there might be more opportunities in another series. One of the decision making criteria is owning a car that can't be raced anywhere else.If you can't find another Grand-Am/USCR team willing to buy your DP, then part of your decision to remain in Grand-Am/USCR is due to the fact that you're stuck with a car that can't be raced anywhere else.

Bottom line, GTE has nearly the performance of DP (and can easily and cheaply made to exceed that performance level to increase the "spectacle"), already has brand identity and directly showcases the factories' wares, already produces close and exciting racing, and is an internationally recognized formula. USCR is going to make LMP2 run to different specs than the ACO, but these changes are supposedly easy enough to change back to ACO specs should the team want to go to Le Mans. I say forget about neutering LMP2, just drop it along with DP, LMPC, and the Delta Wing. DP lap times can be met or exceeded with just a slight engine mod on GTE, so the all important "show" is maintained.

That's why I ask what DP brings to the table. I believe it's just so Grand-Am/USCR can say "we have prototypes. They're not any faster, not any more exciting, and they look ugly, but we have prototypes". My belief is that prototypes are a means to have a level of performance that cannot be achieved in a true GT class, i.e. GTE. GTE may be heavily modified, but they are still MODIFIED. And I don't believe that even the Porsche 911 "Fly-brid" can be modified to the extent that it could beat an Audi R18. (I wouldn't consider making a one-off 911 chassis entirely out of carbon fiber a "mod". That would be an entirely new car.)

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

Yes, I am proposing a GT-only series.

Well as this thread is about the USCR, I hope you are sitting down for when reality takes place!











L.P.

[Maelochs]

Seems there are two camps in sports-car racing: Fans who would be happy with GT only, and those that want prototypes.

Seeing as the series can't afford to lose any fans, maybe both types of cars should be included?

Anyway, this is all worthless. We know the basic shape of the near future: DPs and P2s as the top class, followed by PCs, GTE (called GTLM) and GTC (called GTGA of GT Daytona or crippled pigeon droppings or whatever, who cares.)

That's what we are going to get.

Any thinking about where the series is headed has no meaning unless we are considering 2016, in which case there really is no reason to consider DPs. If the series goes with DPs in 2016, it dies in two years max. If not, then it will likely adopt directly or adopt something based on the new FIA/ACO prototype chassis (P2 is due for an upgrade in 2015, and PC who knows?)

Everyone thinking about the shape of the series in 2014 is wasting brain space. And the only reason to even think about a GT-only series is to get rid of DPs, which will be gone in 2016 to be replaced with better cars, or will be gone soon after, when USCR dies and is replaced by a better series.

That's it. So why even consider an all-GT series? Obviously the top-tier series on the continent should include prototypes, if it wants to attract all sports car fans.

Really kind of silly that we keep debating stuff which is either settled or irrelevant. What makes sense to me is to discuss how best to lobby the USCR management to get them to save the series with a serious prototype class in 2016.

Is boycotting the series the best way, or attending the races and sending an email a week explaining that we won't be back if DPs come back in 2016?

That is a discussion which might actually affect the future of the sport.

Arguing about what to put on track in 2014 is worthless.

[zanfo zanfagni]

Hi all, could someone kindly explain me something more about DP?
I have some difficulties to find info and technical data about these cars. I know that are used tubular steel chassis and road derivated engines, but what's the regulamentar weight? what's the power and torque output? what's the max speed? thanks in advice for the help.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.motorsport.com/grandam/ne..._source=feedly

Now then, in terms of actual news Paul Tracy is trying to assemble a DP program for 2014 (he's pretty much given up on Indycar)

[Lanky Turtle]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

Hi all, could someone kindly explain me something more about DP?
I have some difficulties to find info and technical data about these cars. I know that are used tubular steel chassis and road derivated engines, but what's the regulamentar weight? what's the power and torque output? what's the max speed? thanks in advice for the help.

They weigh about 2300lbs and produce around 500HP and 450ft/lbs torque. Top speed by far is Daytona where they hit mid 190mph range just past the start finish line, compared to the long straights at Road Atlanta or COTA where they reach about 170mph.

[Danske]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

Hi all, could someone kindly explain me something more about DP?
I have some difficulties to find info and technical data about these cars. I know that are used tubular steel chassis and road derivated engines, but what's the regulamentar weight? what's the power and torque output? what's the max speed? thanks in advice for the help.

From the current regulations on their web site, but a bulletin could have altered them since it was put up there:
Minimum weight for cars 4.0 liters or more, 2325 lbs (~1057kg)
Minimum weight for cars under 4.0 liters, 2275 lbs (~1034kg)

The engines make 500-and-some horsepower, more if it's one team talking about another team's engine. Being mostly 5L V8 engines they're not not-torquey, but I don't recall any numbers and the rev limits are ~7000rpm. The trap speeds at Daytona can get up to ~195mph (~314km/h).

[zanfo zanfagni]

Thanks a lot for these precious informations. I thought that DP were more powerfull, something like 600hp or more according to a mcnish interview that I have read some time ago. Maybe is a case of audi drivers reverse sandbanging.
What's about fuel tank capacity and ride height?

[Danske]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

What's about fuel tank capacity and ride height?

DAYTONA PROTOTYPE GENERAL CAR REGULATIONS

8-1.1 Overall length - 175 to 180”.
8-1.2 Overall width - 77 to 79”.
8-1.3 Overhangs - Front; maximum 36” total, including a maximum of 4”of splitter length. Rear; 32 to 34”, measured from the axle centerlines.
8-1.4 Overall height - Minimum roof height 41”, measured from the reference plane.
8-1.5 Minimum ground clearance - 1.5”.

[...]
10-4 Fuel Capacity –Maximum onboard fuel capacity is 20 U.S. gallons for the Rolex 24. For the remainder of the 2013 season fuel capacity is 18.5 gallons.

Threw some extra in there anticipating you might have more questions.
18.5gal = 70 liters
1.5" = 38mm

[BrentJackson]

Oh boy, I see that we have some unhappy people here over what the reality on the ground is. Let me see if we can talk about matters here....

1) People, STOP with the idea that the DPs will remain as is. The only people who said they would are Michael Shank and Wayne Taylor, and both of them were posturing, as we all know teams do all of the time in this sport. Not speeding up the DPs will force everyone else in the field to slow down, which is not desirable for a whole variety of reasons. Slow down 30+ cars to placate a dozen? Folks, that isn't happening so don't raise your blood pressure over it.

2) As far as the DPs being like big GTs, yes they rather are. That's news to people? The cars have been racing for ten years now, how is that now just becoming clear? They are large, fairly heavy racing cars that generally have fairly torquey engines (for prototypes that is) and wider bodywork. You won't get P1 speeds out of a DP, anyone who knows anything about race cars knows that - but it was never designed that way in the first place. The DP was designed to provide close, competitive racing in a package that was easy enough for the teams that race in American sports car racing to afford. It was created as a direct result of the massive rises in cost that the ALMS got thanks to Audi's factory programs and the ALMS' slavish following of ACO prototype rules. It could have been different in the days of the Penske Porsches when the P2s and P1s could run heads up against each other, but the ACO stopped that and the ALMS allowed it, allowing them to go back to Audi domination until they finally bailed on the series, as clearly beating up on Dyson was too easy for them. IF the ALMS had done its best to keep the P2 ranks stocked with lots of Acura ARX-02s and Porsche RS Spyders, they may not be where they are now - but history is what it is. The people here who don't like DPs, I said this earlier but I'll say it again, don't root for them or root for the ALMS teams to beat them. That's quite likely to happen, as all of us know.

3) The DPs' continuation will wreck the USCR? Please. The ACO rules DO NOT work outside of Europe. The ALMS' inability to keep a prototype grid and the repeated failures of the Asian Le Mans Series idea bears this out very clearly. Combine that with the fact that the ACO and FIA have effectively merged their interests for the WEC, why does it matter so much to follow their rules? Yes, Le Mans is a desirable race to go to, but how many teams that will race in the 2014 USCR will actually do it? In the prototype categories, it's just Level 5, which exists because Scott Tucker loves being a racing driver with his own millions. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, but it bears out that while the ALMS could have created a lasting link between the race in France and North America, and for a while it did that well, the ACO tossed them to the wind. Who cares what they think now? Yes, it would be desirable to have the 2016 chassis be capable of running at Le Mans, but those who keep hoping and praying for P1s to return to North America had best let that fantasy go. They're gone after 2013, and that's that. I don't particularly like that either, but the ACO and FIA have made that a factory class, and who has the money for that on this side of the Atlantic, with the current popularity of both the ALMS and Grand Am and the state of the economy of the United States? The USCR needs to prosper in 2014 and 2015 and use that leverage to get a rules set out of the ACO that they can use or get the ACO to allow their cars at Le Mans. (And contrary to people's assumptions here, a DP would NOT look out of place at Le Mans, I would imagine.) All the people talking about moving North America to the ACO rules need to think that one through a little more, because no amount of love or money is gonna bring it about.

3b) And all of this whining "the fanbase is gonna go away!!!!111!!!" is getting embarassing. I've said this before too. Nobody here wants to see DP continuation, right? Then don't walk away from the series. If you leave it down to Shank and Taylor, that's what you'll get. Dyson will be there either way, Pickett doesn't seem to know what he wants yet (or hasn't said it publicly) and I have little doubt that if the series mandated DPs that Tucker and Ed Brown would buy them and get on with it. If you want to see these cars, the ALMS fans need to make their wishes known. Anybody thinking that the DPs will kill the series is also fooling themselves. The DPs have been around for a decade, and the series has never come close to collapse, has it? The DPs won't wreck the series, no matter how much wishing hopes for it. If the ALMS diehards here want to see more of the P2-style prototypes, then spend 2014 and 2015 making sure the guys who run the series know that and rooting for Dyson, Pickett, Tucker and Brown. My time in the sport has taught me something about both the ALMS and Grand Am - they listen to their fanbase, particularly the guys who have been watching the racing since the early days of the two series. Get out there and make yourselves known. In 2016, even new Gen3 DPs will be four years old and have thousands of miles at racing speed under their wheels and will be ready for replacement, true? Everyone will have to replace their cars, so get out there and let it be known what you want to see. And with all of the assumptions in this thread that GA has no fans, wouldn't you figure that the hordes of ALMS fans would let it be known what they want to see?

4) Why would one advocate for a GT-only series? Seriously, do people hate the DPs that much? Guys, that's even less likely than a P1 continuation. USCR's prototype ranks will be dominated by the DPs for two years, yes. But the USCR knows quite well that they cannot be as tightly controlling of development as Grand Am was, as with the P2 and GTE cars its simply not feasible to do so, and a lot of IMSA guys are likely to be part of the merged series' technical staff, so that makes the likelihood of that even less likely. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if the DPs evolve more in 2014 and 2015 than they ever had before. The GA team owners know that, and while guys like Shank and Taylor may not like that, they will either suck it up and run with the big boys or they won't and get dusted. Considering Shank is one of those getting Ford turbo power for 2014 and Taylor has been one of the GM factory squads for years, my guess is both will step it up in 2014 and beyond. As far as exciting goes, the DPs have provided rather better racing than the ALMS has since the Audi vs. Porsche days. Rebellion, if they continue to run in the ALMS after Le Mans, will be at best thinking about it as a second concern to the building of their P1, which will probably never run in the ALMS in 2013. If they don't return, well, we then know who will win every round of the remainder of the 2013 ALMS, don't we? Pickett would love that, but exciting it most certainly isn't.

[Canada ALMS fan]

The reality is fans ARE unhappy and ARE walking away, you can't change that.

1) DP, in any form, is not interesting.

2)Prototypes should not be anything like GT, they should be like formula cars with fenders. They need to be fast like LMP1 as well.

3)The USCR will not prosper in 2014/2015, too much of mess. Nothing to attract/expand fan base. DP has failed for 10 years, why would it work now?

3b)DP has only been around this long due to subsidies. How many teams will answer the bell when they have to buy their own hardware, much less pay to modify it to race against superior P2 machinery? P2/DP is unacceptable as a top class if they wish to be a top level series, just a glorified ELMS. How's that working out?

4)Prototype classes are required but it is a little disingenuous to call cars which are lower tech and slower than GTLM "prototypes".

As much as you try to force us to like the USCR, we have more appealing options, ie. WEC. It is simply not worth attending Sebring and it along with Petit will rapidly lose their global stature. If they get their act together in 2016, they will earn back the folks who are rapidly losing interest.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

If they get their act together in 2016, they will earn back the folks who are rapidly losing interest.

That is, if all of the teams and the management would act together. If not, guess it's bye-bye USCR. But hey, at least they have DTM USA... Oh wait, it might fail too!

[Maelochs]

“1) People, STOP with the idea that the DPs will remain as is.”

Some people don’t want primitive spec cars at all, in any form.

“The DP was designed to provide close, competitive racing in a package that was easy enough for the teams that race in American sports car racing to afford.”

And as it turned out, the racing is only close when yellow flags keep it close, and the cars aren’t significantly cheaper to race.

“The DPs have been around for a decade, and the series has never come close to collapse, has it?”

So, you assume NASCAR will continue to subsidize the series so that it can survive? You clearly haven;’t grasped the fact that Rolex was not self-supporting.

“3) The DPs' continuation will wreck the USCR? Please.”

I see here you ignore Rolex and immediately jump to attacking ACO. Why, because you cannot defend Rolex, which lost money from its inception, finally sold out entirely (after being supported by) NASCAR, and even with NASCAR promo, was unpopular with sports car racing fans?

Yes, if slow, spec racers are the top class of USCR in 2016,. The series will not survive, is my prediction. Unless NASCAR is willing to Continue to pay people to race in it and indirectly, watch it.

“The DPs won't wreck the series, no matter how much wishing hopes for it.”

Well, they wrecked Rolex. Again, please recall that Rolex was open to buying AKLMS because ALMS had fans—all Rolex had was NASCAR money.

“4) Why would one advocate for a GT-only series?”

Because some people see the lame state of prototypes in North America? Pretty easy answer.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

2) As far as the DPs being like big GTs, yes they rather are. That's news to people?

People don't watch Grand Am, so how would they know about DPs? They inform themselves and people claim those are (low-cost, spec) "prototypes". That's the "P" in their name, right?

Anyways, it shouldn't be news to you that it's news to people that DPs suck. They just got exposed to DPs for the first time and already hate them

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

The reality is fans ARE unhappy and ARE walking away, you can't change that.

The fans in this boat are those who cannot accept that the ALMS is having to evolve to stay afloat, just as it did with the PC and GTC classes. Now, its merging with Grand Am and including the Daytona Prototypes and Grand-Am's GT cars. That's evolution to stay alive. If the fans you mention are leaving because of that, there is no way of stopping them, and they are IMO being totally unreasonable.

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

1) DP, in any form, is not interesting.

So says you. You may have whatever opinion you like, but there are people who disagree. Besides that, if you loathe them so much, root for the guys wanting to beat them. That's easy.

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

2)Prototypes should not be anything like GT, they should be like formula cars with fenders. They need to be fast like LMP1 as well.

They are fast, yes, but they cost too much to run. That has been borne out clearly. The teams that race in North America can't stomach the cost of running P1 cars, and nothing one can say or do will change that now. They are simply too costly to be used by any but a tiny handful of sports car racing teams on the planet, and it shows. Would you rather have fifteen cars that can win or two?

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

3)The USCR will not prosper in 2014/2015, too much of mess. Nothing to attract/expand fan base. DP has failed for 10 years, why would it work now?

It's obviously succeeded well enough to have gone from six cars in its first year to a dozen or more at every round for the last several seasons. They don't have a problem finding enough teams to have a halfway decent grid, do they? The ALMS has had that problem since the end of the Porsche vs. Audi days. Too much of a mess? We'll see about that, won't we? I'm not so pessimistic. I think it can work, if people give it the chance. Which clearly about two-thirds of the participants in this thread won't. And that's their loss, IMO.

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

3b)DP has only been around this long due to subsidies. How many teams will answer the bell when they have to buy their own hardware, much less pay to modify it to race against superior P2 machinery? P2/DP is unacceptable as a top class if they wish to be a top level series, just a glorified ELMS. How's that working out?

You wanna find people to run P1s, then? You can't. It's either what you have now or nothing. USCR can't and won't allow the P1s to race there, because they can't accept two teams owning the series. If there was a handful of them they would have a case, but since ALMS has let it become Dyson vs. Pickett, they have brought that fate on themselves. They needed to do what I said years ago - slow Audi down and give everyone else a chance to win races against them, which would then be a catalyst for more guys to buy Acura ARX-02s and Porsche RS Spyders. That didn't happen - the ACO neutered the P2s to allow Audi and Peugeot to get back to beating up on each other and it caused the interest in the prototype categories in the ALMS to fall apart.

As far as the subsidy question, that's true in the ALMS too, indeed that's true in pretty much every form of professional motorsport in this economy. F1 has had it written into the Concorde Agreement since 1982. Neither series is popular enough to really prosper on its own, that much is obvious. USCR is the start of an attempt to change that, but judging by the people here, they'd rather have one WEC round a year than a series. And that's fine to have that opinion, but a lot of us want more than that.

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

As much as you try to force us to like the USCR, we have more appealing options, ie. WEC. It is simply not worth attending Sebring and it along with Petit will rapidly lose their global stature. If they get their act together in 2016, they will earn back the folks who are rapidly losing interest.

And what happens to be getting their act together, taking ACO rules lock stock and barrel as the ALMS did? Won't happen, and we all know it. If you want to give up on the series before it even begins, that's your choice, but purism and whining won't change the facts on the ground. If the ALMS diehards give up on the USCR before it even begins, how on Earth do they expect to get to see anything they want in 2016? If you bail now, you lose any chance of influencing the future, not to mention enjoying the racing that USCR will quite assuredly provide. If anything, the ALMS' fanatical fans should be MORE dedicated now. And even if they hate the DPs, root for Dyson and Pickett and Brown and Tucker to cut them down to size then, and root for guys like Eric Bachelhart and Keith Wiggins and Enzo Potolicchio to get their P2s out there into the fight. If you want any chance of the USCR being more like the ALMS, the ALMS' fans need to make sure the guys who run the series know.

Or you can let your disgust over the DPs take over and just watch the WEC. That's your call, and it'll be your loss. I'm really looking forward to 2014, to see who does what and who comes out on top, because next year the series is a total unknown for competition.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Would you rather have fifteen cars that can win or two?

Two, if the other 13 are 'pootlers'....

Although I do take your point.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Would you rather have fifteen cars that can win or two?

I was more than happy watching P1 in ALMS with two cars contending, can't say the same for Grand AM

[Maelochs]

[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan
1) DP, in any form, is not interesting.

“So says you.”

No, so says the lack of attendance at races. I cannot fathom why Rolex fans continue to lie about facts. The series only existed because NASCAR maneuvered for TV time, paid for massive promotion, and paid teams to race. And because NASCAR couldn’t buy fans, there weren’t fans at the races.

Everyone who attended both series knows this.

Look, we can argue interpretations of facts, but arguing facts is stupid.

Even USCR officials talked about wanting to attract the bigger ALMS fan base. The series’ own polling showed the same thing.

Daytona Prototypes attracted a very small number of fans. Just how it is.

That, and the cost versus P2, seem to be facts that Rolex fans won’t admit, which makes those Rolex supporters lose credibility.

Hey, every ALMS fan I have ever talked to or seen post readily admits the many errors made by ALMS management, in promotion, in class structure and prize payout, in turning down title sponsors … because we don’t want to see the same mistakes made again.

That’s one key point of accepting reality—you can learn history and not have to repeat it.

Rolex fans need to accept the Reality that they exist in far fewer numbers than ALMS fans. That’s Important, if the new series wants to attract fans.

“As far as the subsidy question, that's true in the ALMS too ... “

You said it—now back it up with facts. Explain exactly how the “subsidy” system worked in ALMS.

Look, NASCAR couldn’t sell Rolex after ten years of trying. ALMS had to sell tout to NASCAR because it had fans but didn’t monetize its popular series. That’s why the merger/buyout happened. Denial doesn’t make the past or the future better.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Would you rather have fifteen cars that can win or two?


USCR can't and won't allow the P1s to race there, because they can't accept two teams owning the series.

Seriously? You can't honestly say all fifteen can win, we all know who are the teams that win. And as those teams they pretty much own the series,and if Taylor and gainsco are shooting them selfs in the foot like always its a ganassi show all the way.its not hard to see the ganassi domination of the series, what was it 2010 or 11 when it was so bad grand am posted a 25,000 "bounty" to anyone who beat the 01. I'll give you this season Taylor and gainsco have been more constant and its been interesting but all 15 have not challenged for the win.

[freeballin]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Seriously? You can't honestly say all fifteen can win, we all know who are the teams that win. And as those teams they pretty much own the series,and if Taylor and gainsco are shooting them selfs in the foot like always its a ganassi show all the way.its not hard to see the ganassi domination of the series, what was it 2010 or 11 when it was so bad grand am posted a 25,000 "bounty" to anyone who beat the 01. I'll give you this season Taylor and gainsco have been more constant and its been interesting but all 15 have not challenged for the win.

As opposed to all the top class competition in ALMS the last two years.

I'd rather everyone that posts the same garbage about DPs just not follow the series next year. I'm sure the France family can deal without twelve less fans(?).

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

The fans in this boat are those who cannot accept that the ALMS is having to evolve to stay afloat...

When something that stayed afloat on merit for over a decade is being forcefully changed into something that has been surviving on life support... can you call that evolution?

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by freeballin

As opposed to all the top class competition in ALMS the last two years.

I'd rather everyone that posts the same garbage about DPs just not follow the series next year. I'm sure the France family can deal without twelve less fans(?).

I'm sure they can because only 12 turn up to Grand AM anyway, no big loss

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by aneesh99

I'm sure they can because only 12 turn up to Grand AM anyway, no big loss

beat me to it. My take would'ev been: "The France family shouldn't be afraid to get rid of all GA fans, then, and do what's right: get rid of the DPs and the GAGTs." (yes I know it's not gonna happen. Doesn't change the fact it's the right thing (tm) IMHO (tm)). I'm still disgusted by thinking of the possibility a DP might win PLM outright.

Originally Posted by aneesh99

I was more than happy watching P1 in ALMS with two cars contending, can't say the same for Grand AM

Same here.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Originally Posted by freeballin

As opposed to all the top class competition in ALMS the last two years.

I'd rather everyone that posts the same garbage about DPs just not follow the series next year. I'm sure the France family can deal without twelve less fans(?).

I don't have many issues with dp's like others do, I just wish they were faster and the racing was better. I go to watch both in person and grand am is no we're near the same as alms.yes grand am has dp numbers but you all forget to factor lmpc witch are about the same as dp's. you add those and the alms prototype grid is about the same.grand am claims its super competetive, but its not,the conti st class is more competetive than dp and gagt.yes alms p1 has been a mess but you also can't go and truthfully say grand am has had crazy mind blowing edge of your seat races.cause it hasn't. Ganassi owns that class and we all know it.speed the cars up, stop the pr smoke, admit they have been as successful or competetive as alms p1(witch honestly both haven't, but I'd rather watch a single p1 circle the track than a parade of dp's)and move on.get this thing started and see what happens, who stays and who leaves.