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17 Oct 2011, 00:15 (Ref:2972317) | #126 | |||
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17 Oct 2011, 00:16 (Ref:2972318) | #127 | ||
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I do not think anything could have been done to save Dan, the impact was violent enough for the Roll hoop to fail. As for the other drivers, i think it is sheer luck no one else suffered any lasting injury's especially when you consider the sort of accident Power had.
Autosport reported that Dans car hit another cars rear left wheel which catapulted him through the air, the car twisting in mid-air smashing into the wall/catch fence at an almost unabated speed. |
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17 Oct 2011, 00:33 (Ref:2972328) | #128 | ||
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I would be in favour of fighter jet style cockpits. They would need to have some sort of feature to allow quick removal should a driver need to escape quickly.
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17 Oct 2011, 00:59 (Ref:2972342) | #129 | ||
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I have to agree that, considering the roll hoop was destroyed, I don't think there's any measure available to us that could have prevented this outcome.
I'm not convinced that a NASCAR Sprint Cup car could go full-on, roof-first, into a debris fence, and adequately protect the driver at a track like Atlanta, Michigan, or Daytona. And I hope we never have to find out. |
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17 Oct 2011, 01:05 (Ref:2972344) | #130 | |||
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17 Oct 2011, 01:10 (Ref:2972347) | #131 | ||
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My guess is that it hit one of the support posts for the debris fence.
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17 Oct 2011, 01:16 (Ref:2972349) | #132 | ||
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17 Oct 2011, 01:27 (Ref:2972353) | #133 | |
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Some accidents are simply not survivable for any number of reasons, and this may have been one.
The roll bar failing however is not necessarily an indication that the accident was not survivable. If the roll bar takes the full impact directly on its leading edge it absorbs all the force at the point most likely to tear it out of the car, if a leading structure is in place such as supermodifieds, this may prevent debris hitting the driver directly and also deflect a lot of the energy off the roll bar and keep it intact. The fighter style canopy proposed by NickoGP above may be enough to deflect enough energy. |
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17 Oct 2011, 01:50 (Ref:2972367) | #134 | ||
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There was actually an ARCA crash in the 90's where a car hit roof first into the catch fence at Charlotte and was decapitated. I like the closed cockpit like in the redbull car idea, however, i'm not sure anything would have prevented today's tragedy.
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17 Oct 2011, 01:57 (Ref:2972371) | #135 | |
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Ive looked at the video of Dans accident, at normal speed and in slow motion.
Video from the roll hoop camera of Will Power is also available and will went airborne at much the same time as Dan. In Will's case the camera is finally obliterated but not before fire and also other debri flies past. In Will's video a front wheel also folds up and passes close to his head. Its not pretty in slow motion but at normal speed it is frightening. Everything happens so quickly there is no way you can steer around it. Dan got caught going to the low side but two cars in front collide and he launcheds off the rear, over the top into the wall. Even if the hoop hadn't collapsed, or a canopy had been in place it creates other scenarios. 1) The hoop is crushed and the driver ,if unhurt can't escape. 2) Fire breaks out and the driver cant escape without serious burns even assuming fire crews are quickly on the scene and effective. 3) Canopies also create the problem of visibility and reflection because cars have surrounding environmental factors and not all Bernies races are in deserts (yet). In 1967 Jack Brabham tried an aircraft style enveloping windscreen at Monza but it was discarded. One of the reasons was because of the variations in light and visual perception caused by reflections created by the trees that lined parts of the track. It didn't reduce lap times enough to make the experiment worth pursuing and the visual problems created far more issues than it was worth. 44 years later we probably have advancements in materials etc to overcome some of those factors but other issues remain. Cockpit access in the event of an accident is another issue especially if the driver is incapacitated. sports cars have more room to move then formula cars. Any number of other possibilities can also be dreamt up. There are no easy solutions but I would be wary of assumptions we can eliminate injury scenarios from motorsport any more than we can eliminate the prospect of a bloody nose from a rugby match. Last edited by Teretonga; 17 Oct 2011 at 02:03. |
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17 Oct 2011, 03:26 (Ref:2972401) | #136 | |
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Could the integrity of a fighter cockpit canopy be maintained using the general shape to provide a full windscreen frontage & high sides for protection but still with an elongated opening at the top to allow drivers to step in & out still ?
From memory I think I have seen versions of this is offshore powerboat racing... |
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17 Oct 2011, 07:35 (Ref:2972464) | #137 | |||
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They could include fire safety systems in the cockpits (automatic extinguishers and the like) that could go off in the case of fire detected in or around the cockpit. It's never going to be 100% effective though. If risks can be minimised then it should be considered. |
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17 Oct 2011, 11:21 (Ref:2972582) | #138 | |
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Whatever happens, I certainly hope that no one gets all 'knee-jerky' about this.
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17 Oct 2011, 17:05 (Ref:2972751) | #139 | ||
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17 Oct 2011, 22:05 (Ref:2972958) | #140 | ||
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While there are lessons to be learnt from what happened its not about any one factor. There are lessons and things to be learnt in several spheres. While Dan's impact was not survivable (and I have heard a few unconfirmed reports of what injuries he had) 14 others did survive with a few minor injuries, one requiring overnight hospitalisation but nothing serious and later released. Given the impacts and fire, debri, speed and the number of cars involved that is extraordinary. It doesn't diminish the sadness of losing Dan, but we need to be properly relective about how little serious injury occurred to the other 14 drivers involved in the crash. For a drivers perspective: Danica Patricks comment the day before... "The track is nice and smooth and we'll be three-wide out there, which will be exciting," she said. "The race is going to be crazy - and the crashes will be spectacular. Nothing would let me turn the page better than winning here." Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1b4y7JQF8 |
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17 Oct 2011, 22:28 (Ref:2972973) | #141 | |||
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Having 34 open wheeled cars racing line astern/side by side at 220mph on a short section of track, with no run off areas leading to concrete walls and catch fencing is asking for trouble....somebody do a risk analysis on that and see where it takes you... |
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17 Oct 2011, 22:34 (Ref:2972980) | #142 | |||
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Considering she could well have been caught up in a 'spectacular' crash it seems a pretty stupid thing to say...very blase... |
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17 Oct 2011, 23:01 (Ref:2973002) | #143 | |||
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17 Oct 2011, 23:06 (Ref:2973005) | #144 | ||
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There are any number of awkward scenarios to dream up but looking back histroically at Indycar/IRL/CART there are markers to give an indication of some of the problems. 1. 34 cars on a 1.5 mile oval. Indy has 33 on a 2.5 mile oval. If the ratio was the same then should have it been limited to 20 cars? But then 28 cars can run safely at Milwaukee... So I don't think its all about numbers. 2. The formula has high downforce, mandated wing angles, that create a high degree of downforce and drag. this means you are virtually flat at a high speed course so anybody who can steer reasonably well can jump in and go quickly... which is why you get the big bunches of cars... that creates some dirty air and a big tow...so everyone goes fast but is it as artifically close as using DRS and KERS.... 3. When you get a touch at 225mph you are going faster than the rotation speed of a jumbo jet and with a flat bottom you just take off.... I have a picture of Will Power looking like he is in a flypast 3 metres off the ground. In the CART days they had tunnels and small wings, low drag configurations that tended to keep the cars on the ground far better in a touch. Not impossible to fly but fewer and lower flights. 4. When airborne you fly over the wall into the catch fencing. Catch fencing is there to protect spectators not drivers. In several Indycar/CART oval accidents (Tony Renna, Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe and now Dan, (along with road track example Jeff Krosnoff) hitting the catch fencing is a contributor to the car breakup. In all these incidents car brealup was horrendous, all except Dans. His car was largely intact so its not about the integrity of the car. 5. The fencing stretches before it deflects and gives way, but the cabling doesn't to the same degree so pieces of suspension get between the cabling and the wire and get ripped away. The supporting poles obviously don't deflect much so its like hitting a tree if you hit one. In Krosnoffs accident there was a lamppost behind the concrete barrier but in front of the fence as he careered along the fencing and he hit that. Dans car was basically intact and the cell undamaged when he came to rest. The airbox scoop /top of the roll hoop had disappeared and the wheels and rear wing but otherwise intact. Will Power had a much higher speed impact with the wall but rear 3/4 on, which is probably why he had a sore back. There are lessons to be learned but ripping off at Indycar, the IRL, or oval racing is not the answer. People are emotionally raw and upset at the loss of life but I got a picture of hundreds of people's bodies yesterday, burnt alive in sectarian violence in an African nation.... Dans death is a tragedy but he is not the only person who died yesterday. We all need some perspective. |
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17 Oct 2011, 23:17 (Ref:2973013) | #145 | ||
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Milwaukee has quite a different configuration and doesn't have the high banking like LVMS and requires a different driving style, with the driver having to slow for the corners. At LVMS they are flat out all the time.
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17 Oct 2011, 23:25 (Ref:2973020) | #146 | ||
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Way too much speed for a short oval with zero escape area to head for when it all goes wrong IMHO....
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17 Oct 2011, 23:35 (Ref:2973025) | #147 | ||
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17 Oct 2011, 23:35 (Ref:2973026) | #148 | ||
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17 Oct 2011, 23:57 (Ref:2973030) | #149 | ||
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My apologies if you took it personally. |
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18 Oct 2011, 00:07 (Ref:2973033) | #150 | ||
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Some of it is common sense, some about wisdom and discretion. For the drivers it hasn't been about numbers or speed. Its about patience, care, maturity and experience. They seem to accept the risk but want some people to grow up a bit and take their time to play the race out so the sorts of mistakes that lead to such situations don't happen. Judging from Dario's and Chip's comments that will probably happen later this year or before next season starts. Things will get sorted out as part of the outcome of this tragedy. Its just a very sorry way to learn and have to deal with things. |
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