[Rumours] Webber's engine turned down, Vettel's turned up

[Rgms320]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I was thinking that for his next chassis (there will be another one), something like 'Calamity Jane' might be more appropriate.

LOL!

Or that old t-shirt slogan: "I'm with Stupid!"

(Speaking of t-shirts... saw a good one recently. Black t-shirt with yellow lettering on the back: "I'm a bomb disposal technician. If you see me running, try to keep up." )

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Am I the only one in this thread that saw the incident exactly as Horner explained?

Problem is both Horner and Marko, after the race, explained it was due to Vettel having preserved his tyres, then changed it to fuel saving modes, yet Webber's times stay the same whilst Vettel's speed up suddenly...

[Marbot]

Webber asked the team to tell Vettel to back off.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

[OZ_HCR32]

See, these bits and piece statemetns being released are ****ing me off. If this is the case why didnt they come out adn day it on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday! So many different tones to the stories coming out of RBR I am not sure they know the truth.

Anyway, will wait for the BBC interviews at teh next GP...

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by jab

I reckon the team comes up with the car names, actually

Maybe... but I bet Seb won't be driving Petulant Pamela in Canada. Mark is more likely to have a new chassis called Recalcitrant Rita..........

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Webber asked the team to tell Vettel to back off.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

Once again, the lap times over the preceding laps and the sudden increase in the performance of Seb's car, seem to undermine this latest explanation from Horner. He should stop digging, in my opinion, because he is not getting him or the team out of the sh1t, only deeper into it....

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Webber asked the team to tell Vettel to back off.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

So Webber was actually requesting team orders then? Oh, the irony!

[ensign14]

It kind of suggests though that Vettel had speeded up for some unknown reason, doesn't it?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

See, these bits and piece statemetns being released are ****ing me off. If this is the case why didnt they come out adn day it on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday! So many different tones to the stories coming out of RBR I am not sure they know the truth.

Anyway, will wait for the BBC interviews at teh next GP...

They know the truth and I think you saw the truth immediately after the accident and in the first statements!

They did not expect the backlash and now they are trying to hose it down with spin!

[wnut]

Hi Pannenmann this from Martin Brundle at the BBC lends weight to the opinion that it was a deliberate act of intimidation on Vettel's part and would seem to indicate that the race stewards did not do their duty.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8714410.stm
"Webber instinctively defended and left an F1 car-sized gap at the side of the road on the dirty, unused part of the track. Vettel chose to take it and moved alongside and then slightly ahead.
At this point the German either realised he would never stop in time, or he wanted to muscle and intimidate Webber across the road to ensure a better line into the hairpin.
It was a deliberate move of the wheel from Vettel, not a slide under braking.

Unsurprisingly, Webber never moved, contact was made, Vettel was out of the race and Webber's car was damaged. "

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Webber asked the team to tell Vettel to back off.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093

As I said in an earlier post. Webber knew the McLaren challenge was over. I think at that stage Vettel was about a second clear of Hamilton. And was expecting the team to cruise and collect a 1-2 which is the norm for most F1 teams. The line that Vettel was under pressure from Hamilton is garbage, Webber showed in the first part of the race that the Red Bull could defend against the McLaren's higher top speed.

[Nado]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

So Webber was actually requesting team orders then? Oh, the irony!

When the team tells you to turn your engine down, you expect the other driver to be as well, he was obviously surprised that Vettel was let to run at full speed for so many laps. Even the McLaren drivers were surprised when they were told a different times in Turkey which almost caused another accident.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by wnut

They know the truth and I think you saw the truth immediately after the accident and in the first statements!

They did not expect the backlash and now they are trying to hose it down with spin!

So if the article was written such that Vettel had asked Horner to tell Webber to slow down... it would definitely be a case of RBR and their Golden Boy conspiring against Webber's domination...

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Nado

When the team tells you to turn your engine down, you expect the other driver to be as well, he was obviously surprised that Vettel was let to run at full speed for so many laps. Even the McLaren drivers were surprised when they were told a different times in Turkey which almost caused another accident.

Not necessarily. Webber was using more fuel by virtue of being in front. Vettel was using less fuel by being in Webber's tow.

It's not rocket science.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

So if the article was written such that Vettel had asked Horner to tell Webber to slow down... it would definitely be a case of RBR and their Golden Boy conspiring against Webber's domination...

In the above situation if they intended Vettel to make a pass on Webber yes they would be favouring Vettel!

If the Red Bull drivers were racing one another the team shoulld have warned Webber that Vettel was closing so that he could defend his position. A McLaren in 2 nd place would not be allowed to smeak up on him like Vettel was. Webber would have changed his tactics if he knew he was under attack from his team mate!

Does he have to put a mate around the back of the circuit now to give him an accurate gap on Vettel?

My experience would lead me to believe a car in a dice uses more fuel than a car in clean air. I would like to sea the fuel maps!

I do not believe a word of the Red Bull spin days after the event!

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Not necessarily. Webber was using more fuel by virtue of being in front. Vettel was using less fuel by being in Webber's tow.

It's not rocket science.

But why choose that exact moment to save fuel? There was still half the race to go, anything could have happened, and anyway there would surely not be more than a lap of benefit for Vettel?

And how does that square with Vettel at that exact moment suddenly cutting three-tenths off his regular pace - and everyone else's regular pace? And now RB have gone back to the tyre story which negates the whole fuel thing.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ensign14

But why choose that exact moment to save fuel? There was still half the race to go, anything could have happened, and anyway there would surely not be more than a lap of benefit for Vettel?

Simple. Use up the fuel and you don't finish the race.

Vettel could easily have had 1 laps worth of fuel more than Webber at that point (on lap 41/58 ) simply because he was using less engine power as a result of the tow from the cars ahead of him.

The advantage from the tow could sometimes be offset by the disadvantage to aerodynamic grip... with the tyres sliding around more... but it's obvious Vettel's tyres were still in relatively good shape compared to Webber's - if you believe the article.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by wnut

My experience would lead me to believe a car in a dice uses more fuel than a car in clean air. I would like to sea the fuel maps![/FONT][/COLOR]

I do not believe a word of the Red Bull spin days after the event!

Excepting Webber was also in a dice from about lap 1.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Simple. Use up the fuel and you don't finish the race.

But why THEN of all times? Why not leave it until the final lap? When everyone else will presumably be switching modes? Why save fuel early on when at any time a show car or the retirement of a pursuer would render the saving pointless? How come it was ordered by the team at exactly the point when they told Vettel he could speed up? And why then say it was down to tyres?

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Vettel could easily have had 1 laps worth of fuel more than Webber at that point (on lap 41/58 ) simply because he was using less engine power as a result of the tow from the cars ahead of him.

Red Bull were saying that it wasn't 1 lap's worth of fuel, but that Webber had to go into fuel saving mode 1 lap sooner than Vettel. Far more marginal.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by ensign14

But why THEN of all times? Why not leave it until the final lap? When everyone else will presumably be switching modes? Why save fuel early on when at any time a show car or the retirement of a pursuer would render the saving pointless? How come it was ordered by the team at exactly the point when they told Vettel he could speed up? And why then say it was down to tyres?


Red Bull were saying that it wasn't 1 lap's worth of fuel, but that Webber had to go into fuel saving mode 1 lap sooner than Vettel. Far more marginal.

There is good reason why you should conserve fuel not on the last lap... because if you conserve earlier you might have enough to fight for position later in the race and salvage some strong points. Leaving your fuel saving drive until the last lap won't guarantee you will make the last lap... it's too big a risk to not finish with a strong points haul.

Vettel didn't go into fuel saving mode. He was the only driver of the top 4 contenders that didn't conserve fuel at the latter stage of the race. That is my understanding of the events.

[OZ_HCR32]

What is again interesting is the team claiming Webber asked the team to call of Vetool. If true, does Mark really have the right? I wouldnt think so. Would Mark really have the hide to say to the team "tell the quicker car behind me to back off" ... unless that has been the call from time to time when Webber was following closely behind and he respected team wishes to not crowd Vettel or have a go.

If true in this context it is awfuly presumptious for Webber to ask the team to slow down the team mate who is in tow with two other cars right behind him.

Its all a bun fight ...we will never know the whole truth

[Wims]

Speaking about fuel usage; since teams are allowed to run with really low fuel levels during qualifying do they also design setups that does not work properly with a full tank of fuel , ie too low ride heights, and therefore have to load the cars a little light when it comes to racefuel? Halfway through the race they instruct the drivers to run fuel saving engine mappings to make up for this low fuel level. I guess such a strategy might make sense on most F1 tracks, since its basically impossible to pass in F1, but Istanbul Park is one of the few tracks where it is possible to pass as a result of the really long back straight

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

There is good reason why you should conserve fuel not on the last lap... because if you conserve earlier you might have enough to fight for position later in the race and salvage some strong points. Leaving your fuel saving drive until the last lap won't guarantee you will make the last lap... it's too big a risk to not finish with a strong points haul.

Vettel didn't go into fuel saving mode. He was the only driver of the top 4 contenders that didn't conserve fuel at the latter stage of the race. That is my understanding of the events.

Vettel didn't have to conserve fuel, he didn't do anywhere near as many laps as the others!

[sime1070]

Looking forward it will be interesting to see how Webber performs over the next couple of races... Seb was expected to improve with his 'new' car which if he had would have given us a reason for why Webber has been dusting him... didn't happen!
Only concern is if all of a sudden Webber form drops off - conspiracy theorists aside - I think Seb is the annointed one!
In the meantime as an Australian and a bloke (also) in his 30's GO MARK GO!

[Knowlesy]

To be fair to Vettel he had been quicker than Mark by a fair bit up until the qualifying tech problem. He was always going to be able to cruise up to the back of Mark, was just going to be a question of if he could pass him. Which, of course, he is not very good at.