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7 Dec 2011, 20:23 (Ref:2996672) | #126 | |
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That's not logical. If they have an inferior car, they either have to develop a new road car (most likely a homologation special) or stop competing. The former leads to an explosion of costs, the latter leads to a one make series.
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7 Dec 2011, 20:30 (Ref:2996676) | #127 | |
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I don't mind BoP in GT3, it's a series aimed at gentleman drivers, all that matters is the cars are cool, have equal performance and are affordable (something that isn't being addresed).
When it comes to GTE, BoP should be kept to a minimum, manufactuers should have a greater influence on the performance of the cars than the rule makers. The one exception I would make, and it's the one some dislike, are cases like BMW, if they want to compete in GTE I do think it's correct to give them enough performance breaks to ensure a car like the M3 is competitive, their entry has been an overwhelming plus for the class. |
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7 Dec 2011, 20:48 (Ref:2996693) | #128 | |
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Really, then why have 200 mph road cars with carbon brakes that manufacturers insist on testing at the Ring? Hell in the early days of racing they didn’t trailer cars to the track. The only difference between a race car and a road car is one never races at a track. You can race anything, it’s just that you have this mindset that if a manufacturer doesn’t spend millions developing a so called race version it can’t be a legitimate race car and that’s just a straw man argument. It’s the idiotic love of complexity for complexity sake, or again looking for that angle where the weakling can find an edge in the rules.
I remember the big dust up between Nissan and Porsche about Ring times. Porsche’s stance was something to the effect that they could not get close to the lap times Nissan claimed with the GT-R. There was this volley of insults and innuendo hurled back and forth for weeks in what could have been settled in less than 8 minutes if either manufacturer had the guts. I would like to see a race series that settled these kinds of disputes and I’m sure a lot of others would as well. Order special code ZR1-R or Z06-R with factory interior delete, add WRF (World Racing Federation- my fictitious sanctioning body made up of manufacturers, former drivers, etc rule approved roll cage, splitter, slicks, etc; and go racing in “WRF Pure GT”. Want to go racing with that Aquila CR1, Mosler, Pagani, Gumpert, and Radical, try “WRF Open GT” I think we will have to agree to disagree, I think your concept of racing is bolonie, and I know what you think of mine. |
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7 Dec 2011, 20:49 (Ref:2996694) | #129 | ||
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7 Dec 2011, 20:54 (Ref:2996697) | #130 | ||
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Quote:
Porsche 911 GT3 RS: 1:36.77 Chevrolet Corvette Z06: 1:34.43 Audi R8 GT: 1:36.39 Ferrari 458 Italia: 1:36.22 GT-R: 1:36.35 Lexus LFA: 1:36.39 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG: 1:38.82 |
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7 Dec 2011, 20:59 (Ref:2996701) | #131 | ||
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7 Dec 2011, 21:01 (Ref:2996704) | #132 | |
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Just a guess, but maybe the ones that are two seconds slower than the fastest one?
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7 Dec 2011, 21:09 (Ref:2996709) | #133 | |||
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To loosely quote Winston Churchill: BoP is like democracy -It's a horribly system, but all the others are even worse... |
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7 Dec 2011, 21:10 (Ref:2996711) | #134 | ||
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The only safe way for owners to test the limits of a car is on a track, regardless of whether they want to race them or not. Why do you think track days are so popular?
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7 Dec 2011, 21:19 (Ref:2996718) | #135 | |
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The Vette has soft compound “Cup” tires or it would be right there with every other car. The tubby SLS just needs to shed a few pounds, not an insurmountable feat for Mercedes. They might even run the new convert with a hard top like the BMW Z4 GT3. All the other cars are within a half second, so basically nothing inferior here, in fact very competitive.
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7 Dec 2011, 21:22 (Ref:2996721) | #136 | |
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7 Dec 2011, 21:49 (Ref:2996727) | #137 | |||
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Quote:
If you adheared strictly to racing road cars, it's only a matter of time before someone builds a race car for the road, then it moves away from it's original focus. Last edited by JAG; 7 Dec 2011 at 21:58. |
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7 Dec 2011, 22:08 (Ref:2996735) | #138 | ||
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First of all, which 911 are you talking about? I have not seen any comparisons where the Porky doesn’t give the M3 a good view of its tail lights. Hell an M3 can hardly best a solid axle Mustang GT these days. |
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7 Dec 2011, 22:18 (Ref:2996742) | #139 | |
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Well I don’t know how much of the thread you have read so I will give you the benefit of the doubt. The fact they are for the street is a balance in itself. Earlier I stated that there should be a minimum number of cars for sale, I mentioned at least five hundred, could be more depending on what all the manufacturers agreed to. So if that manufacturer thinks he can sell five hundred or more road-going race cars…get to it.
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7 Dec 2011, 22:43 (Ref:2996753) | #140 | |
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You mean the Dodge/Plymouth Daytona/Superbird weren't raced to promote their new styling but were designed/built to win races even though they couldn't give them away at dealerships?
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7 Dec 2011, 22:47 (Ref:2996757) | #141 | |||
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What you saw with Group A was not the best road cars winning, it was a case of who had a big enough budget to absord the costs of homologation special road car production, giving them guaranteed success on the stages. Last edited by JAG; 7 Dec 2011 at 23:03. |
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7 Dec 2011, 23:28 (Ref:2996780) | #142 | |
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[QUOTE=JAG;2996757]http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...ts_review.html[QUOTE]
How long did it take you to find a track special Bimmer limited to 150 cars worldwide? Did you even read what Monkeyboy wrote… "But it struggles for traction next to the Porsche, doesn’t steer as sweetly and isn’t as fast - in a straight line or in terms of lap time." Here is some reality for you… Mustang vs. M3 And it’s not even the Boss Mustang, but the M3 is one you could buy. |
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7 Dec 2011, 23:47 (Ref:2996790) | #143 | ||
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...racing determined by politics. Restrictor size determined by who buys the most TV ads during races or whatever crazy criteria the series come up with. Could more road-based GT racing lead to less variety? Perhaps, but remember that most GTE teams are privateers and the ones who choose oddballs are doing so fully realizing the risk that they won't get factory development parts and so forth. And they won't be the loudest voice in the room when it comes to politicking to overcome those disadvantages. Whether it be with GTs in the past or modern day LMPs, there are always privateers willing to try an oddball or two. Some people would rather lose doing things their way than win doing it other people's way. And I don't think you can automatically assume that the results would be constant blowouts. Late full course yellows aside, the racing between Audi and Peugeot was closer than it was in GTE most of the time even with the BoP as far as I can tell. |
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8 Dec 2011, 01:07 (Ref:2996811) | #144 | ||
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LMP is much more spec-ed than GT, though.
Yes, it's not outright spec (actually far from it), but the cars are very similar in their design as both are mid-engined Diesel-powered Coupes built to the same baseweight and both started with a clean slate rather than a compromised roadcar platform. So that's not really the best comparison... |
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8 Dec 2011, 02:17 (Ref:2996825) | #145 | ||
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http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m3+...ient=firefox-a Same goes for the Mustang reference, Saleen Mustangs ran in GT2 in the '90's, some have been seen in GT3, the latest Camaro is heading there too with Reiter. In GT2/E M3's have a long history, the Vauxhall Monaro ran, and there's been various rumours of the Lexus ISF, Merc CLK and Cadilac CTS-V running. Last edited by JAG; 8 Dec 2011 at 02:23. |
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8 Dec 2011, 02:58 (Ref:2996827) | #146 | |||
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Heck, even in the ALMS, the two car LMP1 battles were often better than the ALMS GT battles both in the race and in qualifying. Ok, there weren't any late yellow dashes for cash in the LMP1 class like there was in GT, but the beginning and middle stages of the races in LMP1 were often quite epic. At Road America, where there wasn't a late yellow I don't think, we did see a barnburner of a race between the Dyson #16 and the Cytosport Aston. The GT race was a blowout by that point. Ok, a lot of the reasons for bad GT/GTE racing worldwide in 2011 was caused by GT drivers and teams making amateur hour mistakes almost every race, but that happens. Granted, as far as ALMS P1 goes, it could be argued that is a BoP class too. Quote:
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8 Dec 2011, 14:14 (Ref:2997005) | #147 | ||
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Listen I have nothing against BMW, I owned a 6 series myself years ago, but I have never thought of BMW coupes and sedans as rivals for sports cars. The closest thing they have to a sports car now is the Z4 another car that races with an engine that you can’t find in the road car. BMW would better serve their cause if they would just build a damn sports car like the M1 or Z8 instead of something more suited to touring car racing. Instead they insist on fighting above their weight with real sports cars and they need a massive amount of waivers to be competitive. Ultimate driving machine my arse, more myth perpetuated by BoP. |
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8 Dec 2011, 14:30 (Ref:2997012) | #148 | ||
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Although I think if Cadillac wants to seriously flaunt that “Standard of the World” they need a serious and sustained P1 effort to be taken seriously. Again, just an opinion, I don’t expect any of this to happen because it makes too much sense, to me anyway. |
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8 Dec 2011, 15:16 (Ref:2997030) | #149 | ||
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Do you like V8 Supercars much? Maybe that´s the series for you...
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8 Dec 2011, 15:39 (Ref:2997038) | #150 | |
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