2012 Shannons Nationals Motor Racing Championships

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Richard Craill

Out of interest, what would you suggest to make this meeting more 'Upbeat' and 'lively'?

Well, firstly, I have to acknowledge that my comment was harsh. It was an unnecessary crack and a toned down opinion is more of an accurate reflection of what I thought. Even with that in mind, you'd have to consider that I've been to both VSCRC meets there and the historics that were on a couple of weeks before that as well, and it was definitely more subdued than the other meetings that have been there. Also with the historics, I only went on a saturday as well. (Even the last vscrc round, but that was at PI)

However, where I may've been a bit too critical with my previous post and was something I had considered at the time, but didn't mention it in my previous post, was that day was much hotter and more uncomfortable, than the other meets there. I think this was the biggest factor and there's nothing you can really do about that. The paddock, the competitors/teams in the garages, they just weren't as busy and as intense than even in state meets. I can't say there's was anything that "you" could've.

Now, no Shannons meet is going to beat historics for atmosphere (or any other meet, for that matter). However, fwiw, during the afternoon, I thought the day was a legitimate argument for the use of more promo girls! There were none there, none that I saw anyway, and I can understand if there is a concern that it might amke the meet come across as cheap, derogatory to women, whatever, and that this is inhibiting to attracting families or makes it slightly uncomfortable for women that are there anyway. But, even if they were just standing there talking amongst each other, not trying to get your attention to promote something I'm ighley unlikely to care about, their presence just makes the event a bit colourful, I think. I also don't mean chicks that are popping them out or acting like quasi strippers or trying to "entertain". Just something nice to notice during a dead period, and there were a few dead periods on the saturday.

[formerf1champ]

That'd be the first time Jim's been in a major prang for a while?

[bortall]

I sometimes think being stuck in that small area at Sandown doesn't help. I love the ability to roam around at PI. A hot day makes it even worse. Of course for atmosphere great racing is the best solution (which doesn't & can't always happen)

[Trevor]

Congratulations to the Class E Production car series winner, 2nd year in a row. Well done Grant.

He will be moving up classes next in a brand new Toyota 86

[Richard Craill]

Now, no Shannons meet is going to beat historics for atmosphere (or any other meet, for that matter). However, fwiw, during the afternoon, I thought the day was a legitimate argument for the use of more promo girls! There were none there, none that I saw anyway, and I can understand if there is a concern that it might amke the meet come across as cheap, derogatory to women, whatever, and that this is inhibiting to attracting families or makes it slightly uncomfortable for women that are there anyway. But, even if they were just standing there talking amongst each other, not trying to get your attention to promote something I'm ighley unlikely to care about, their presence just makes the event a bit colourful, I think. I also don't mean chicks that are popping them out or acting like quasi strippers or trying to "entertain". Just something nice to notice during a dead period, and there were a few dead periods on the saturday.

Fair point. Thanks for the feedback. You did miss the girls, though - they were very present Sunday, and spent a reasonable amount of time wandering in the stand and in the paddock.. so just bad timing, I'm afraid!

[Sheep Stations]

Roll-overs, crashes, end of season aggro, some great racing moves(Swifts, never thought I'd say it but well done lads!) that did and didn't come off, close and enthusiastic racing in most of the categories, and a last gasp tenth of a second win by Beric Lynton in the AMC last race of the day...

I guess some people just aren't there for the racing.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I guess some people just aren't there for the racing.

Is this a pop at me?

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Is this a pop at me?

Ya think?

Too cryptic?

I was also there with several 'chicks'...all of them very effectively contributing to the smooth running of the Motorsport. None of them not wanting to be there.

I like a pretty girl as much as the next bloke, but anyone arguing for more grid decorations 'cause they're bored should go home and be an owner/ operator in the privacy of their own home.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Granted there are several loose cannons in the category, but to have JB talk up acceptable driving standards is hysterical.

To be fair, he's not the first one to make such noises this year... Mr Miedecke, for example, has made similar remarks in previous rounds (notably Bathurst).

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Ya think?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking you.

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Too cryptic?

Can something be "too cryptic"? But indeed, I wasn't sure

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I was also there with several 'chicks'...all of them very effectively contributing to the smooth running of the Motorsport. None of them not wanting to be there.

You see, this is where it may've been a mistake by the mods to delete the posts, where I told peckstar the actual demographic of motorsport. If you'd read it, you'd get that those women who who were "contributing to the smooth running of the Motorsport" do not count and are not an accurate reflection of how popular motorsport is amongst women. It isn't popular amongst women. I would explain futher, but the demeaning nouns I would refer at you would mean the mods will delete the posts anyway. But anyway, I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "generalise" and, while you're there, the meaning of cryptic as well.

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I like a pretty girl as much as the next bloke,

I can't say with any confidence that you do.

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

but anyone arguing for more grid decorations 'cause they're bored

Who are you referring to? Who is asking "for more grid decorations 'cause they're bored"?

Regarding my point about chicks to Richard. He knows it, other motorsport promoters know it, that's why they're there in the first place. But I was not writing the post from a stereotype motorsport perspective, I was writing from the natural order of the world. Somthing I learnt years ago, working at some nightclubs and bars. Whenever there are females around (not any, they'd have to be moderately pretty), it just makes whatever scene more bearable, and they are definitley a positve addition. Forget about motorsport, Take any scene, add half/dozen pretty women, and tell me it isn't slightly uplifting.

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

should go home and be an owner/ operator in the privacy of their own home.

I cannot think of a demeaning noun that wouldn't get this post deleted. Even though you deserve it.

[formerf1champ]

Anyway, enough of that ****. My exchange got me thinking deeper about the Shannons series. I've been to a lot, and there has been meetings which have felt quieter than a VSCRC rounds. In theory, this shouldn't be the case. I don't know what exact figure is supposed to be an expectation, But I'll say, maybe a PI classic crowd, or not quite? It doesn't have the pull of mainstream V8s, and it doesn't have the goodwill, or expectation of being a good event, like a historic meet. It seems to be in no man's land.


I don't know how often Richard checks these posts, or what his exact position is with the series. But whatever role he plays, regarding encouraging people to turn up, I don't envy one bit. If you look at all the classes, they're all really support classes. Pretty much all of them, in any combination (and add fford) either were or a current equivalent support series to the ATCC. People who went to the (pre-cochrane) ATCC then, went to see the ATCC. If people wanted to watch, the supports were a bonus to kill time in the lead up to, or in between, the ATCC. The crowd then may've had their favourites, but they weren't committed to watching them.


But since the ATCC wanted to seperate itself from the rest of the motorsport community, and become "entertainment", it's really left the other classes hung out to dry. Because there were no serious amount of committed fans for these series in the first place, when they don't have a headline act, people won't go to out of their way to see them.


The Australian Motorsport landscape has to change, if the Shannons series is going to get fair attendances. From my pov, there's only two paths to go. The best one is to find a headline act, the best option atm would be GTs. I don't quite understand all the difficulties in alowing this to occur, I get the impression that Quinn/GTs have some fixed views. The potential of GTs is good, and it could easily fill a void Super Touring left.


The other option, is to actually become a "Nationals". All the cars competing in the SN would be eligible to compete in some state category, just let them. At the end of the year, at a proposed track (on rotation) come for a carnival/bash going for a National title. I'm not exactly sure to how it'd look like, but I think I'm kind of talking about a type of SCCA run-offs, that they have in America. This may be a last resort for SN, though. Just saying.

[Sheep Stations]

On the good looking girl thing, I wasn't seeking your endorsement.

As for being offensive, the women involved in Motorsport don't count? Your shallow mysoginist assessment of what in your world you think is needed to boost crowd figures for SN events is just vain ramblings, nothing more.

[bortall]

Is the Nationals (like state racing) aimed at the competitor and any spectator who turns up and pays to get in just a bonus ??

[Sheep Stations]

In a nutshell, yes...

Free entry would help but who would it attract?

[Richard Craill]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Free entry would help but who would it attract?

And if you do offer free entry, does it cheapen the product to a point where the few people that do go will stop because it loses it's 'value' to them.

It's a toughie.

Attendance at SN rounds is an issue. Well, actually, it's not an issue because the series is not based on and is not driven by the need for paying spectators to help cover the costs of a) sanction fees and b) promotional expenses, etc, like other series here and abroad. The business model is completely different.

It is nice to have a crowd though, isn't it. It's also worth noting that the attendance of paying spectators and overall attendance (which is what most promoters release when confirming 'crowds') differ greatly.

It's not my place to post actual figures here because they are an internal / promoter thing only, but I can tell you that the first Phillip Island round this year was our biggest SN round there, by far, in terms of paid attendance for six years. (Perhaps the media generated by the flooding on Friday helped! though I'd put it down to having a program that included TCM and GT and Craig Lowndes.. )

As far as I know the July SMP round was also very (it's a relative term, remember) strong and QR was great. Sandown, on Sunday, was also pretty solid.

If I had to take a rough guess I'd very unofficially say 'crowds' were up 20% based on last year. Now, a 20% increase on a small percentage initially isn't a big jump - but it is a jump and that's positive.

Now it's not 10,000 people and it's not even 3,000 - but that's not the point. It's enough that it puts a bit of cash back in the promoter and organisers to spend on the next one, and the people that do pay to go enjoy it and lap up some great motorsport.

Consider this, though. It's a viscous cycle. The more paying spectators = the more budget to promote rounds = more advertising / promotion = more paying spectators.

Attracting people to what some call 'second tier' motorsport (I think otherwise!) is the single toughest thing that we deal with on a daily basis given the constraints of finance, time, resources and a ridiculously jam-packed slate of entertainment options for people to enjoy these days. And the bottom line is, the SN is a place to race for competitors first - otherwise they would have nowhere that is professionally run and organised on a national level.

Anyway - it's an interesting discussion and I'm always keen to read more. If you've got thoughts, post 'em.

And SS - You're just jealous that they never had some pretty <ahem> 'lambs' on the grid with your car when you were driving!

[GROUPA]

I attended the Winton & PI (September) rounds this year and the crowds were low.

I’ve said it before but I think they should lower the price to a flat fee say $10.00 each day and contact the car clubs in each state so they can support the racing.

The GT class has MOPAR, Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari just to name a few and each state has active car clubs in these makes (I know for I’m with MB)…if you offered discounted tickets, car club parking etc….you will get car clubs doing runs to Winton & PI and part of their event calender…in turn these people purchase coffee, take away food etc all adding to the bottom line.

You could also do simple things like drivers parade in a Porsche convertible or MB etc….grid walk prior to the race.

This is all simple stuff that can be done

[mac]

I tend to think the Shannons Nationals needs to focus on having a few key championships at every single round.

The problem with the Nationals is that, if you even know an event is on, you don't necessarily know which series' are racing there... You've still got to research it.

If it wants to be successful commercially (ie. draw TWO men and TWO dogs), I tend to think it needs to focus its energies on the four main categories (GTs, Kumho V8s, Formula 3 and GT3 Challenge) - each and every event should feature as many of those categories as possible. Perhaps a Production Cars as well...

Not only would such a championship have a certain cache, but it could possibly help restore some credibility to a few of those categories that are currently struggling (ie. F3 and the AMC).

I see it as pointless for the Nationals to prop up categories like Saloon Cars, Commodore Cup and the Swifts at that level - especially if there is any inclination to attract media or spectator interest.

However, a six or seven round championship where I was guaranteed to see GTs, F3, Kumho V8s, GT3 Challenge and the AMC (or whatever it will be called going forward)... I'd definitely go to that.

[PVDA]

I sent a few e-mail links to some of the action (crashes) to one of the guys I work with first thing Monday and the first thing he said was "Was it this weekend, damn I wouldn't have minded going for a look"

Bugger all PR to non motorsport people in advance but that does keep the costs down I suppose.

[bortall]

Another thing to do is avoid date clashes between Sandown & PI.

[alfacors]

Sandown is limited with it's dates, so there's not a lot of choice unfortunately.

I just wish we didn't have them clashing with the F1 and Le Mans

[Reload]

Whoops wrong thread.

[Richard Craill]

Originally Posted by mac

I see it as pointless for the Nationals to prop up categories like Saloon Cars, Commodore Cup and the Swifts at that level - especially if there is any inclination to attract media or spectator interest.

However, a six or seven round championship where I was guaranteed to see GTs, F3, Kumho V8s, GT3 Challenge and the AMC (or whatever it will be called going forward)... I'd definitely go to that.

Prop up Saloon Cars? Did you see the entry list for their final round? They are one of the last categories in Australian motorsport that needs propping up!

Remember, the Nationals were set up to give categories a place to race at a national level. Reverting to a PROCAR-style formulae', however appealing, is not either commercially viable or the point of the series existing in the first place.

In this day and age only a few categories are going to run all their rounds with the Nationals anyway. GTs, F3, TCM, etc etc are all mixing up their calendar and that's the way the landscape is now.

Even GT3CC - who to this point have held all bar two (at the 12hr) rounds with the Nationals - are doing their own thing with the Porsche Rennsport event at SMP.

Unfortunately it's not a viable option for either the Nationals or the categories involved.

[one five five]

Non-ATCC/V8Supercar race meetings once upon a time did attract decent numbers.

the Australian Super Touring Championship in the late-90s, and especially at the NSW events, used to draw fairly decent crowds, around the 10,000 mark a number of times (in fairness, they didn't draw in events at Phillip Island or Calder though).

the Trucks at Oran Park were another massive draw as well, the hill would be packed for their meetings.

NASCAR at the Thunderdome, particularly in the early days, drew crowds as well.

All these had in common was 1 main attraction with a bunch of support acts.

As mentioned though, the Shannons Nationals is not set up like this, and in many ways, is going along fine as it is, servicing competitors needs.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

As for being offensive, the women involved in Motorsport don't count?

No they don't. They are a small minority. Also they're there as a result of some attachment. Come back to me when a single/a pair/groups of women, who are not attached to CAMS/Shannons/Competitors/partner dragging them along, with cameras around their neck, start to become normal at Shannons/state meets. Not noticed because it's an odd sight

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

Your shallow mysoginist assessment of what in your world you think is needed to boost crowd figures for SN events is just vain ramblings, nothing more.

How is suggesting that Shannons get a headline act or having a SCCA Run-offs type event (which, once esatblished, I think could pull a bigger crowd than multiple Shannons meets at one track), shallow misogynist? How is it just vain ramblings?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Richard Craill

Remember, the Nationals were set up to give categories a place to race at a national level. Reverting to a PROCAR-style formulae', however appealing, is not either commercially viable or the point of the series existing in the first place.

.

What satifaction do competitors get racing at a national level, when few people attend, and the meet is comparable to state meets?

Originally Posted by one five five

Non-ATCC/V8Supercar race meetings once upon a time did attract decent numbers.

the Australian Super Touring Championship in the late-90s, and especially at the NSW events, used to draw fairly decent crowds, around the 10,000 mark a number of times (in fairness, they didn't draw in events at Phillip Island or Calder though).

Indirectly, you've backed me up. I suggested GTs, because it's a class that I think could fill the void left from ST.

Originally Posted by one five five

the Trucks at Oran Park were another massive draw as well, the hill would be packed for their meetings.

NASCAR at the Thunderdome, particularly in the early days, drew crowds as well.

All these had in common was 1 main attraction with a bunch of support acts.
.

As much as I loved the racing at the Thunderdome, I think these classes got crowds becasue they were a novelty. Once the novelty wore off...