ERC 2013

[Janneman]

So, now we know where the idea started. I would rather not be in the shoes of Tim or Henk if this plan is accepted by the FIA. Probably this is not what they wanted but stil they pulled the trigger.

However, after some more thinking about the plans, i don't only see the loss we get but there are also some things to gain.

First, if it's global, only maybe 4 Europe circuits can participate. At the moment there are at least 4 venues who want to do an ERC event but who are ruled out. So a ERC is still very well possible.

So, we lose, let's say, 6 drivers (the 16 drivers are also from USA and maybe another continent). Those 6 drivers will belong to a couple of big teams which are lost from the ERC.

But I start thinking, why are drivers like for instance Coox/van Mechelen not doing an ERC season? If the big teams are gone you maybe can do an ERC with less money as today and still drive for an A-final.

Remember, this year already Isachsen and Heikinen switched and most of the OMSE team is in the USA. Yes they are missed but there is still much to watch. And those who drive Global rallycross, Foust, Doran, they favour the ERC.

So, in the end, is it going to be the FIA's big deal, or do we as fans say "big deal"?

Regards,
Jan

[paul1982]

In the past ERC was the top of rallycross.
Now with GRC you have a split and if you get a new ERC and the other drivers start their own championship you have three.......
But the fans wanna have the best drivers in Rallycross in one championship! Not in 3!

Pffff can we go back to the 80's, 90's and 00'!

[chasing cars]

If the proposals become reality I actually feel that they may struggle to fill the 16 places from the current crop of rallycross drivers. Firstly it seems many are against it and secondly how many could commit to a whole season, I cant see sponsors suddenly wanting to get involved on the back of these plans.

So what are the options for them? Domestic championships are fine but once you have tasted European action many would find it a step back.
The GRC may be attractive to a few but you only have to listen to Tanner to understand that European style rallycross is the real deal. It would be ironic and a huge own goal by the 3 names mentioned if in an understandable attempt to raise the ERC profile in wake of US competition that drivers then left Europe and went to the USA because of these changes.

The other possibility is a rival series, something i'd usually be against but in this instance I would support, particually if it was supported by the often forgotten super1600 and touring car drivers who I believe are also unhappy with the proposals and maybe even introduce a supernational class. The European Open Rallycross Championship has a certain ring about it and with 4 well supported classes would without doubt prove far more popular than a 3 hour 16 car superclass only event with supporters.

The final option of course is drivers will leave the sport altogether and that really would be a crying shame.

[chunder]

Good idea cars

For me if you had that series, based it in Scandinavia, had rounds in Finland, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Holland, UK and perhaps France?

4 classes as they are, with Supernationals, this would be well supported everywhere except for UK and France where you could use other classes?

Low travel costs, compact series, whats to lose?

[rallycrossnl]

Ireland and Germany perhaps?

Oh please, could we rename Touringcars in 'The New ERC'?

Touringcar =

Thanks

[rx-guru]

Already in 1978 we had a Touringcar Division and a Grand Touringcar (GT) Division in RX. What the heck is wrong with Touringcars?

[rx-guru]

DTM = Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft
Tourenwagen = Touringcars

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

Ireland and Germany perhaps?

Oh please, could we rename Touringcars in 'The New ERC'?

Touringcar =

Thanks

Nevery heard of the BTCC, ETCC, WTCC? There's nothing wrong with the name touringcar, altough I would have prefered the name Super2000.

[rallycrossnl]

If you want to win over people not attending car races yet, you need to rename it to somethingelse. For Joe Public a touringcar is a bus. Marketingwise a f*ckup.

Yeah I know about the name and the use of it in other classes, makes me everytime I read or hear it.
http://www.snotr.com/video/1980/Bus_race

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

No offence, but... perhaps they have something better to do, then shouting on a interweb board and are they calling the shareman of their clubs with their complaints and ideas

True, but Foust hasn't been "shouting on a interweb board" and we are aware that he is unhappy with the proposed changes.

I'm just surprised that more drivers haven't been more vocal - or contributed an opinion to the discussion - especially given that so many of them have a presence on Facebook and other social networking sites.

As you say though -and as USrallycross has hinted - I'm sure discussion is occuring in the background.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

True, but Foust hasn't been "shouting on a interweb board" and we are aware that he is unhappy with the proposed changes.

I'm just surprised that more drivers haven't been more vocal - or contributed an opinion to the discussion - especially given that so many of them have a presence on Facebook and other social networking sites.

As you say though -and as USrallycross has hinted - I'm sure discussion is occuring in the background.

Everything about Rallycross is in the background!

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

If you want to win over people not attending car races yet, you need to rename it to somethingelse. For Joe Public a touringcar is a bus. Marketingwise a f*ckup.

Yeah I know about the name and the use of it in other classes, makes me everytime I read or hear it.
http://www.snotr.com/video/1980/Bus_race

Yup in Holland and Belgium it is... Another problem used to be Rallycross, the word cross makes it sound Autocross, which makes it sound Bangaracing....

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Nevery heard of the BTCC, ETCC, WTCC? There's nothing wrong with the name touringcar, altough I would have prefered the name Super2000.

Touring cars are positioned below Super 1600... And they're slower too... So Super 2000 sounds out of place unless they change the rules for this class. Also amazing to see how a 300 bhp Touring Car with the much praised RWD is slower than a 1600 FWD car!

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

Yup in Holland and Belgium it is... Another problem used to be Rallycross, the word cross makes it sound Autocross, which makes it sound Bangaracing....

Indeed, and marketing for the whole of europa would be smart to see if 'we' don't use rude or stupid words.
And indeed, cross here means a field, a chassis with engine and a steeringwheel. Nothing to do with 250.000+ Euro cars. (Well, nowdays there is a shared class)
Euro2000, it isn't the year 2000 anymore. And that it would have anything to do with the max. CC's of an engine isn't clear to potential new fans. Besides that it dosn't need to be a 2 liter.

Tanner responded to a question asked in an interview, prolly followed by 'can we quote you on that sir?' If all drivers were interviewed and their answers printed, we would have more information. But I suspect that most will give a PC answer. There is a chance that they might have to tag allong and aren't helping themselfs by saying they are against it now. In public that is.
Politics.

And Eddie is the perfect person to give you an answer on why rallycrossworld isn't printing about it online. I'm sure there will be a big story in the Mag.

[chunder]

A lot of snobbery from our Bebelux friends there

Autocross means little to me other than buggies and a differnet sort of racing

Snobbery when half the top men jst drive into each other is hardly a god point of view!

I am drifting away as many others will, who cares if certain people dont want to write about it, there have been vested interests for a very long time in rallycross, one of the reasons why it is dying a death in the UK and if this all goes ahead why it will also do this in certain parts of Europe.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

Touring cars are positioned below Super 1600... And they're slower too... So Super 2000 sounds out of place unless they change the rules for this class. Also amazing to see how a 300 bhp Touring Car with the much praised RWD is slower than a 1600 FWD car!

But more fun to watch.

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by chunder

A lot of snobbery from our Bebelux friends there

Not snobbery, no it's not. There has been a survey years ago on who came to rallycross and who watched autocross. And what people pictured in their minds for those words etc. Some higher education students did that survey, years ago. The outcome was that few knew rallycross, lots knew autocross and most did assume it was the same and rallycross would be with old dented cars in a mudfield. spot the troubled marketing in .NL? Afaik it's around that time that the name rallyracing was 'invented'. In a perfect world you would want to attract the people who went to Zandvoort F1 and the bangercar fans and everybody in between. And a well choosen name could help in that. Mambo Kurt tickles nobody, Iron Maiden dos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qhq...eature=related

Indeed, autocross, autograss etc is different in the UK. Class 7 and up autograss is something everybody has to have seen once in their lives. Twin Hyabusa engined Class 9 buggy anyone? 190 bHP per wheel.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gordoncalder/6716175895/ (not my picture)

[rx-guru]

I can show 25+ years old stories of mine in which I claimed that the biggest problem for Rallycross is the 'cross' in its name and that the only name that would really match what we do and that would help to overcome some problems in many countries would be RallyRacing. Never heard of a survey, but remember that people in Germany claimed the sport cannot be named after a motorsports magazine ('rallye racing') we once had and that was still alive by then.

I also remember that this very name change had been forwarded once by the FIA ORC to the WMSC, where the request failed because one of the World Council clowns without any relationship to RX asked "why shall we change a name that was good enough for a quarter of a century". As nobody gave him an answer to his question that schedule point was immediately and without any discussion dealt with.

[FIRE]

We are going offtopic but in Holland the name of sport is not the problem but lack of promotion. Since last year that (at least for ERC) has improved (e.g. coverage on RTL7).

However using the name 'rallyracing' is creating confusion. Except for official press releases almost everybody else is using 'rallycross' so I don't understand why they don't use the name 'rallycross' like the rest of Europe. Don't get me wrong 'rallyracing' would be the best name.

The reason autocross is more known because every weekend there's somewhere an event. From tracks in Friesland to the tracks in the south. In rallycross you are stick with Valkenswaard and Maasmechelen. Aren't most of the drivers from Zeeland, Brabant and Limburg (provinces closest for Valkenswaard)?
Would be good for rallycross if there's an event at an other place (e.g. former airbase Twente; it's a region with people who are interested in rally, Dakar, autocross). Unfortunately I think it's not very realistic due to costs.

[WJM]

The irony being that 'Rallyracing' is the only form of Rallycross where half the field consists of Autocross competitors.
And Rallycross fans complaining that Autocross is 'banger racing' is snobbish and delusional. How many finals this year had all 8 starters also finish??

[WJM]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

No offence, but... perhaps they have something better to do, then shouting on a interweb board and are they calling the shareman of their clubs with their complaints and ideas

If the drivers are such professionals as they think they are, they have to inform their customers (= the fans). No fans = No Sponsors = No Race Team. The one and only professional in this series Tanner Foust understands this better than anyone.

[Janneman]

For sure Holland is not the only country to combine the rallycross action with autocross or autocross looking cars (a.g. RX150).

It's like combining soccer with basketball... both nice to watch but how many people are really fan of both?

Autocross is nice to watch but it just has another group of die-hard fans. In Belgium they understand better and give the fans a full weekend of real rallycross.

About the name, just watch a few video's on youtube about the early 80's and you see rallyCROSS with jumping cars over the large dirt sections. Nowadays the tracks are much to smooth, the cars to low so drivers start to complain the track is bad. Make the tracks like they used to be for more spectacle and give us back rallyCROSS. You also don't need the stupid gap jumps like in Global Rallycross anymore...

Regards,
Jan

[rs 200]

Originally Posted by Janneman

About the name, just watch a few video's on youtube about the early 80's and you see rallyCROSS with jumping cars over the large dirt sections. Nowadays the tracks are much to smooth, the cars to low so drivers start to complain the track is bad. Make the tracks like they used to be for more spectacle and give us back rallyCROSS. You also don't need the stupid gap jumps like in Global Rallycross anymore...

Regards,
Jan

This is so true lack of dirt mud what ever you want to call it has gone missing year by year ,all we have now is tarmac, concrete so called gravel,but no dirt have we used it all up !!, the dirt sections always gave someone the chance to overtake if you went in to deep or went wide on the exit ,this is why we need the so called joker lap ,i think we need to stop trying to re invent rallycross and go back to its rootes ,i think we all know it was better then than now ,we would all like gp b's but thats not going to happen but go back to basics would be my move on this.

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

I can show 25+ years old stories of mine in which I claimed that the biggest problem for Rallycross is the 'cross' in its name and that the only name that would really match what we do and that would help to overcome some problems in many countries would be RallyRacing. Never heard of a survey, but remember that people in Germany claimed the sport cannot be named after a motorsports magazine ('rallye racing') we once had and that was still alive by then.

I also remember that this very name change had been forwarded once by the FIA ORC to the WMSC, where the request failed because one of the World Council clowns without any relationship to RX asked "why shall we change a name that was good enough for a quarter of a century". As nobody gave him an answer to his question that schedule point was immediately and without any discussion dealt with.

I do not claim that the dutch invented the word rallyracing, but I can remember a strong support by the dutch club for that word in those old days. Could well be the survey was held during a national race, not during erc. Besides that, it was not only held trackside. ERC brought enough fans, it was national attention they were after afaik. And support, pity there was no support during that WMSC meeting.

'If the drivers are such professionals as they think they are, they have to inform their customers (= the fans). No fans = No Sponsors = No Race Team. The one and only professional in this series Tanner Foust understands this better than anyone.'

I don't see why they 'have to'. Perhaps they are waiting for more information, have talks scheduled already or who knows what. A Professional wouldn't talk to the media/interwebs first, and then talk to IMG/FIA/club. Just the other way around, don't you think? Scarse, PC, open ended and brought with a smile. That's how news is brought nowdays by professionals.
Yeah Tanner being this clear about his view is great but his options are multiple for now. The FIA blocking GRX and FIA racing by the same driver will have made him an unhappy puppy already.

The dutch national events being filled up with autocrossers was discussed during yearmeetings and voted for. Due to the lack of participants in other classes and lack of events for the crosskarts etc. If no VAS/supernational/ X-class drivers can be interested enough to become member and allowed to vote for their own class to be part of a national event, then those are left out. It works that way, not the other way around. I've read and heard a lot about this, but most don't seem to remember how this came about and bark up the wrong tree.

'And Rallycross fans complaining that Autocross is 'banger racing' is snobbish and delusional.'
Please, really, please show me where I said that.
I say, Annie uit Assen, Henk en Ingrid, POTENTIONAL NEW FANS, associate the word 'cross' with the local 'race what you bring' autocross event in Lutjebroek, or perhaps even more with motorcross (MX1/2/3) and can't be arsed to drive from Groningen to V'waard to see rallycross because the local autocross during the kermis is what they think they will see there. Start a survey on nujij.nl and you will see that too. That's thinking marketing, not trying to be posh about rallycrossers being better then autocrossers or something, dunno what you read in my words. For me, anything with 4 wheels and 80+ bhp and a capable driver = fun.

Me supporting the word rallyracing comes from the part where 'we' (if/when..) leave the FIA (read my posts about options other then scaring and crying in a corner about the FIA selling out to IMG and do someting about it) and have to have a new name. Well... as Eddie says, rallyracing would be one of the better options. Hoon Kaboom a close second.
http://www.texasmotorspeedway.com/Hoon/Overview.aspx

Yep, 2nd track in holland would be great. Achterhoek sounds good, loads of car events there and indeed all you hear (other then the local lingo) during Dakar PreProloog is achterhoeks. New fans could very well be found there.

Real dirt parts in tracks, yeah, those were the good old days. Mud slinging 10 meters high on wet days. Cars flying.. I don't think FIA health and safety likes that. Not that they aren't flying anymore!

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by FIRE

We are going offtopic but in Holland the name of sport is not the problem but lack of promotion. Since last year that (at least for ERC) has improved (e.g. coverage on RTL7).

However using the name 'rallyracing' is creating confusion. Except for official press releases almost everybody else is using 'rallycross' so I don't understand why they don't use the name 'rallycross' like the rest of Europe. Don't get me wrong 'rallyracing' would be the best name.

I don't think it's off topic. This is about promotion and/or the lack of it.
I assume that the NRV mailed all major news papers with a pressrelease pre-event and with the results after the event. You weren't able to read it in lots of papers about rallycross due to the lack of interest by the newspaper editors. One of the reasons might have been the name. 'Oh, it's a local 'cross', we don't place that if we have enough other news.'
Buying ad-space in a big news paper has always been expensive.
Dunno how they came up with RTL7, probably after seeing RXcars during the Dakar pre-proloog event.

That is why we need one good promotor for the whole ERC, streamline media attention througout europa. The network setup thus can well be used by the clubs for national events too.