2014 British F3 Silly Season

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Meanwhile, I was on about the 70s...

[brakedisc]

This weeks Autosport "Race of my life" Thruxton 1971.

" At this time F3 was a very big deal and the meetings like Silverstone and Monaco were huge events. There were sometimes 50 entries with free practice, two heats and a final, and there were many constructers "

Edenrace posted the following.

"OK Juntos...whats the answer it is easy to critisise ...how do you think we can get a bigger grid?"

I think the bit quoted from Autosport answers Edenraces question. Make F3 mean something and encourage more constructors. This will also address another question Edenrace also asked.

"All of the drivers are pay drivers....how does a team run otherwise?"

The answer to that is that years ago small teams could build an F3 car for reasonable money and each of these teams needed the best driver they could get. What we have now is 2 manufacturers and cheque book motor racing. Now if F3 and all the other Formula controlled by the FIA were to run with reasonable regulations that were not all about high cost materials and electronics, needing huge teams to run the cars, perhaps there would be plenty of manufacturers involved.

Taking things a step further I would suggest that if the FIA were to insist that to get a drive in F1 a driver had to finish in the top ten of a global F3 series and that to gain entry to the Global series he had to finish in the top ten in a regional series, things would change and F3 might return to what it once was.

[Go_For_Pole]

If FIA does that then very simply budgets in F3 will go higher

[brakedisc]

Go-for-pole

By making the cars easier to manufacture, cost less to do so and need fewer people to run them F3 would cost more?

Why?

[davyboy]

Is it true that there'll only be 7 cars on the grid this weekend ?

[remdev]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Is it true that there'll only be 7 cars on the grid this weekend ?

Yes.

2 Carlin
2 Double R
3 Fortec

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by remdev

Yes.

2 Carlin
2 Double R
3 Fortec

Surely they'll pull the plug on it... or at least postpone until more have registered ? A 7 car grid for a series of this stature won't do anyone any favours.

[remdev]

The 2nd driver for Carlin is Alice Powell.

[andrewc]

I gather Alice is a one-off race deal, not even that as she'll miss qualifying and practise and start from the back of the grid as she is doing a Team GB Skeleton trial the day before. She'll be in a F308.

Going back to a previous comment about constructors, in the glory years, to become a constructor you needed a supply of tubing, aluminium sheet / aluminium honeycomb, a welder and a riveter.

Then F1 found carbon fibre and it started trickling down into F3, and before you know it you need autoclaves and so on. There aren't many people who are geared up for this and tempting those who can but aren't already contesting F3 somewhere would be difficult - even if you can produce a car, how are you going to persuade teams to buy it rather than the latest Dallara. Are there any breakthrough developments left that could cause people to switch?

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

Go-for-pole

By making the cars easier to manufacture, cost less to do so and need fewer people to run them F3 would cost more?

Why?

Well, perhaps I should have quoted which part I was referring to. As you wrote:

Taking things a step further I would suggest that if the FIA were to insist that to get a drive in F1 a driver had to finish in the top ten of a global F3 series and that to gain entry to the Global series he had to finish in the top ten in a regional series, things would change and F3 might return to what it once was

Any series that gains such a competitive advantage in the market will simply become more expensive. And besides I believe that any such advantage could be in breach of EU anti-competitive law.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by andrewc

Going back to a previous comment about constructors, in the glory years, to become a constructor you needed a supply of tubing, aluminium sheet / aluminium honeycomb, a welder and a riveter.

Then F1 found carbon fibre and it started trickling down into F3, and before you know it you need autoclaves and so on. There aren't many people who are geared up for this and tempting those who can but aren't already contesting F3 somewhere would be difficult - even if you can produce a car, how are you going to persuade teams to buy it rather than the latest Dallara. Are there any breakthrough developments left that could cause people to switch?

Excellent point. Excepting the [very small number of] existing commercial race car manufacturers, the only way for a new constructor to break into a series like this is to outsource most of the construction - to somebody like Dallara (!) As we've seen over the past 20 years or so, nobody other than Dallara has succeeded in building and fielding more that one or two cars, making it ostensibly a spec. series.

It pains me to say it but what's happening this year [and last for that matter] is not worthy of the title 'British F3 Championship'. The MSA should knock it on the head in this country and give F4 or something else premier status. There's a bigger question as to whether there's still a place for the concept of F3 internationally.

[andrewc]

In Europe who other than Tatuus and Mygale are geared up for production of carbon tubbed single seaters?

The F1 teams obviously can produce tubs for their own requirements but a couple of chassis per year is a bit different to volume production.

Also in the tubular days, a chassis could be used in several formula - eg Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 2 depending on engine fitment and what wings are being used, these days they are less versatile - they tend to be built for one category with a few exceptions such as the Tatuus Formula Renault chassis being used with a Toyota engine in New Zealand, but they are similar similar level of performances rather than a slower and faster series.

[ger80]

http://www.ycom.it/
They do the 2014 Audi R18

http://www.forwardcomposites.com/
Ex-Lola composites

Le Mans constructors
http://www.zytekautomotive.co.uk/pro...sport/chassis/
http://www.oak-racing.com/manufacturer?lang=en
http://www.oreca.fr/en/technology-2/manufacturer/

[davyboy]

... all producing very low volume (never more than a handful) and eye wateringly expensive prototypes. I don't know if they could, or indeed have any desire, to mass produce.

[brakedisc]

EU anti-competitive law? I thought the FIA had already proved that they were above those laws. Was that not why Max fled to Monaco?

Anyway the future of F3 is in the hands of the FIA and I believe they should be doing more to make the sport affordable. Is carbon tubs the only way? Carbon non recyclable and in a "green" era this maters. Has anyone seen how a well designed spaceframe stacks up against a carbon tub in the FIA crash tests?

Same goes for fancy electronics, are they really needed?

If more research was done by the governing body and passed on to would be constructors things might change and we would not have the embarrassment of them offering a series that is poorly supported.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by brakedisc

This weeks Autosport "Race of my life" Thruxton 1971.

" At this time F3 was a very big deal and the meetings like Silverstone and Monaco were huge events. There were sometimes 50 entries with free practice, two heats and a final, and there were many constructers "

Edenrace posted the following.

"OK Juntos...whats the answer it is easy to critisise ...how do you think we can get a bigger grid?"

I think the bit quoted from Autosport answers Edenraces question. Make F3 mean something and encourage more constructors. This will also address another question Edenrace also asked.

"All of the drivers are pay drivers....how does a team run otherwise?"

The answer to that is that years ago small teams could build an F3 car for reasonable money and each of these teams needed the best driver they could get. What we have now is 2 manufacturers and cheque book motor racing. Now if F3 and all the other Formula controlled by the FIA were to run with reasonable regulations that were not all about high cost materials and electronics, needing huge teams to run the cars, perhaps there would be plenty of manufacturers involved.

Taking things a step further I would suggest that if the FIA were to insist that to get a drive in F1 a driver had to finish in the top ten of a global F3 series and that to gain entry to the Global series he had to finish in the top ten in a regional series, things would change and F3 might return to what it once was.

"Now if F3 and all the other Formula controlled by the FIA were to run with reasonable regulations that were not all about high cost materials and electronics, needing huge teams to run the cars, perhaps there would be plenty of manufacturers involved"


I think you are on exactly the right track here, make the lower series wingless as well.

The carbon tub is just a giant bracket of eye watering expense (davyboy ). The FIA is quick enough to ban all sorts of other guilding of the lily so why is the carbon fiber tub so important?

This is where it should be

Going back to a previous comment about constructors, in the glory years, to become a constructor you needed a supply of tubing, aluminium sheet / aluminium honeycomb, a welder and a riveter. [AndrewC]

[Richard B]

Only 7 cars at Rockingham for first rounds. The title of this thread sums it up 2014 British F3 silly season.

[TimRTC]

If F3 cars ran without the electronics and carbon fibre it would lose its relevance for young drivers. The MSV F3 Cup has shown that there is only limited demand by gentleman drivers for a contemporary F3 series, without the young drivers there would be no modern F3.

I would also contest that popularity in the past was in no small part due to the lack of rival formulae like FRenault and the GP series. Spec series that offer safety to drivers that they are less likely to end up with a lemon.

[andrewc]

I think MSV could be criticised for not giving F3 Cup their full attention for the last year and a half. Everything is BRDC F4...

There is a market for gentlemen drivers in F3 style machinery - currently Monoposto have 15 ex-F3 Dallaras, but they are running road engines on injection rather which are a lot cheaper than F3 engines.

[Juntos]

They say Carlin have two chaps to race at Silverstone and Double R will fill up the third seat. @edenrace! C'mon, it's show time.

[edenrace]

Sadly RR do not have third driver at Silverstone, they have both 308 and 312 chassis available but no engine.
This year no leasing is available so the cost to buy is £45,000 and you cannot spend this money without a definite deal to run the car

[wsrgo94]

Kirchhofer at Silverstone with Fortec.

I'll be surprised if he doesn't do a MacLeod.

[peebee2]

Tested at Silverstone recently with Team West-Tec. He should beat that field very easily but only doin it to master the track for Gp3.

[Alessio]

Where's Macleod going? Or does he move over only for Silverstone?

[andrewc]

According to the Autosport article, it clashes with a German F3 meeting which is his priority.