Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by chavez

The ATCC should and must continue to be awarded to the most professional level tin top category in the country.

Even when the class holding the ATCC has more in common with Le Man prototypes than it does the car it is supposedly representing

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Even when the class holding the ATCC has more in common with Le Man prototypes than it does the car it is supposedly representing

Less like Le Mans cars than DTM or Super GT, or many other long lasting touring car classes. Super Touring would have been the worst offender for F1 and GT levels of technology and spending...

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[S griffin]

I’d say they are hardly like Le Mans cars and are more of a touring car series than the DTM and the like. Certainly I’ve always watching the V8 supercars for the racing and the spectacle, but costs need to go down if it is to survive

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by chavez

That is the difference between a series with professional full time race teams and a series with part time team and drivers.

The ATCC should and must continue to be awarded to the most professional level tin top category in the country.

Amen to that.

Supercars are different to TCR cars but it doesn't mean they're not touring cars. Comparing them to Le Mans is astonishing...

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Comparing them to Le Mans is astonishing...

Both are purpose built racing cars.
Neither of them have any production car parts on them
Neither of their specs, be it body shape or mechanicals, match up with anything on a production car
Both have a roof

Tell me the difference, and why one should be considered a touring car?

[S griffin]

Because it’s based on road going saloons?

[Matt K]

Exactly, it's based on road going saloons. LMP1 cars are nowhere near anything you can find on the street. What's the definition of a touring car? Okay, Supercars are far from being production cars but touring car is not a stock car or a production car. For me it's quite obvious Supercars are touring cars and I'd never compare it to a Le Mans car.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Because it’s based on road going saloons?

In what way is a V8 Supercar based on a road going saloon? There is not one single component or design that is similar, apart from the external styling and some heavily cut-up pillar panels. Even the headlights are substituted for lightweight carbon-fibre items now, the OE parts are not even used for that! The vast majority of the panels are composites, in the case of the Mustang the shape is not even similar to the road car.

Your argument was true up to Project Blueprint, but removing any relation to the OE floorplan, OE glass or OE suspension layout etc has put paid to that.

This is a Ford Mustang:


This is not really a Ford Mustang at all:


Look for example how the structure around the front wheel arch is completely different. Once upon a time, the standard body was modified with a wider wheel well but those days have long gone.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Because it’s based on road going saloons?

Exactly what part of a Supercar is based on a road going car?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

Exactly what part of a Supercar is based on a road going car?

The shape or silhouette of both the Commodore and Mustang have some similarity to the road car.

Yes, the Mustang pushed, and most people would agree, exceeded the limit on this.

However since their introduction one consistent aspect as been the similarity to the road car even as the percentage of road based components diminished to extinction.

A Group3A Commodore looked like a VP Commodore with wings. Today's Commodore Supercar looks like a ZB Commodore with wings.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Interesting to see an argument about TCR vs Supercars. Being based in the UK where TCR cars are generally seen as a running joke with pathetic grids and there is a fast rising interest in Supercars I find it all very odd.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Interesting to see an argument about TCR vs Supercars. Being based in the UK where TCR cars are generally seen as a running joke with pathetic grids and there is a fast rising interest in Supercars I find it all very odd.

Usual thing mate - the grass is always greener and Supercars in one form or another have been around here in Oz for nearly 30 years. Personally, whilst I don't think that they are perfect (I mean, what is?) to me the cars and the series are both light years ahead of TCR.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Interesting to see an argument about TCR vs Supercars. Being based in the UK where TCR cars are generally seen as a running joke with pathetic grids and there is a fast rising interest in Supercars I find it all very odd.

But BTCC is your leading touring car series. We don't have NGTC racing, so TCR is the next best alternative (and quite a bit cheaper AFAIK).

[GTRMagic]

How many rounds has the TCR series run this year? Just out of interest...

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

How many rounds has the TCR series run this year? Just out of interest...

nada ?

[bludvl_x19]

One.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But BTCC is your leading touring car series. We don't have NGTC racing, so TCR is the next best alternative (and quite a bit cheaper AFAIK).

But we don't have Supercars. I'd take Supercars over NGTC any day as much as I love my BTCC racing they pale in comparison next to the Supercars.

It's all about TV coverage at the end of the day. I daresay that if TOCA took the weird decision to ditch NGTC cars and bring in TCR it would be huge but it would be the same no matter what cars they switched to.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

One.

If Supercars can still count Albert Park.......

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Interesting to see an argument about TCR vs Supercars. Being based in the UK where TCR cars are generally seen as a running joke with pathetic grids and there is a fast rising interest in Supercars I find it all very odd.

The UK series is one of the poorer series, and that is before you mention the Beckmans.

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[Matt K]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

But we don't have Supercars. I'd take Supercars over NGTC any day as much as I love my BTCC racing they pale in comparison next to the Supercars.

This exactly! Imagine Supercars in BTCC :P that would be something!

No, I mean, Supercars is a great and unique platform. TCR is fine for some cheap racing in national capacity (yeah, I know, Supercars is technically national championship too) but it's nowhere near Supercars in terms of cars level, excitement, everything basically.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

But have you researched what is happening and the path European manufacturers are being forced down by legislation? I doubt that you have because anyone who has would see where manufacturers are being forced to abandon IC engines as they don't want to face the huge penalties that they will incur if fleet emission targets are not meant. In fact not just European manufacturers but any manufacturer that wants to sell cars in Europe. I have no idea where the 2 litre reference came from or who it is aimed at. You are beating a dead horse but be my guest and continue to flog the poor beast. The class is not a bad one but it has a strict time limit on it which is very short and those that like it will have to acknowledge that time frame.

So far, this.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/fi...EU-May2020.pdf

https://europe.autonews.com/automake...-comes-germany

https://carbuzz.com/news/another-cou...bustion-engine

https://www.cspdailynews.com/fuels/w...bustion-engine

https://qz.com/1341155/nine-countrie...-law-to-do-so/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-..._fuel_vehicles

https://qz.com/1341155/nine-countrie...-law-to-do-so/

I think the first link is most relevant. Otherwise is that enough, or do you recommend something else?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by S griffin

TCR could have their own Bathurst 1000 like the Super Tourers did. I don’t see much wrong with that, might get quite a few international drivers joining

However V8 Supercars will still be king, even if there are signs of a bit of decline atm

It's a blind spot in your motor racing knowledge that you refer to Super Touring having their own Bathurst 1000, as if it's an alternate race. It actually was the Bathurst 1000. The Cochrane cars were given their own 1000km race at Bathurst and trade off the original race.

Originally Posted by Mixer

People are talking about using crate motorsport motors. I don't really see the issue.

If you want to talk about control components being the opposite of professional racing. What is TCR then. Control everything....

And at least 6 manufacturers are running VW/Seat engines in them.

Most manufacturers other than Hyundai, VW, Audi, Seat, Subaru have an engine that is either basically the TCR "control" engine, or they have some munted creation that isn't related to any production engine made by the marque.

It's not good press but it makes for compelling and equal racing while reducing costs. So you can reduce costs while not changing the show.

So let me ask... Are you for it or against it?

What are you asking? People who share your opinion take a dump on TCR because of a lack of professionalism. Crate engines are for amateurs or lower end competitors.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by chavez

Let's venture into this alternative universe for the moment.

At the start of this year Motorsport Australia awards TCR Australia the ATCC title.

The COVID pandemic breaks out.

Supercars, by the start of September has managed to run a number of races and mapped a calendar that will see the conclusion of their championship at Bathurst in October.

TCR have held no races, with a very good chance that they will not hold any races at all this year.

That is the difference between a series with professional full time race teams and a series with part time team and drivers.

The ATCC should and must continue to be awarded to the most professional level tin top category in the country.

I'd say supercars ran races out of desperation. TCR/Shannons Nationals don't have that urgency. I do smirk at the notion of supercars being "professional". HA!

A field full of failed F1 aspirants and those that know they weren't good enough anyway.

Transporters the length of a road train.

Making your mechanics work 18 hours a day, every day for 4 months.

That's professional. It's more hard core than F1!

Originally Posted by chavez

A Group3A Commodore looked like a VP Commodore with wings. Today's Commodore Supercar looks like a ZB Commodore with wings.

No, it didn't look like it. A Group3A Commodore actually was a VP Commodore with wings! The other looks like one, but it isn't. And it isn't anything in particular.

Double standards. Close enough is good enough.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Matt K

This exactly! Imagine Supercars in BTCC :P that would be something!

Oh yeah, they make the champcars around Brands Indy look like a Fvee races.

Supercars would finish off the BTCC.

Originally Posted by Matt K

No, I mean, Supercars is a great and unique platform. TCR is fine for some cheap racing in national capacity (yeah, I know, Supercars is technically national championship too) but it's nowhere near Supercars in terms of cars level, excitement, everything basically.

This is another example of double standards from supercars fans.

[Speedy400]

I’ve been banned for less