USCC (leave your axe outside)

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

beat me to it. My take would'ev been: "The France family shouldn't be afraid to get rid of all GA fans

All four of them????

Pruett won't have anyone to say hello to anymore....









See what I did there...

[freeballin]

Originally Posted by aneesh99

I'm sure they can because only 12 turn up to Grand AM anyway, no big loss

Hey-oh!!!!!!

So where is ALMS racing next year? I know that every race gets hundreds of thousands to show up.

I hate to break this to everyone but attendance doesn't matter one wit in the scheme of things. Every track either series races at could be empty and it wouldn't matter. People buying tickets have way too many thoughts of self importance.

Get over yourselves.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by freeballin

attendance doesn't matter

Is that the Grand Am company mission statement?

[Maelochs]

Laguna Seca4Life:

Thank You.

I go to both series as well, and I see what you see: Not the PR fog, not the rabid-fan smoke, but the actual racing, plus the actual number of folks around the fences (I always walk around the track several times each day of an event) and I watch all the support series as well.

When I get people telling me stuff which simply isn't true, I can see why there is so much failure---people prefer to buy the PR and not the product.

Everyone knows that Rolex never was popular or profitable, and ALMS was popular but not profitable. But only about six Rolex supporters are willing to admit it---and all six are also ALMS fans.

Folks, it's a fact---no matter how many times you repeat a thing, it doesn't become real.

What's that thing Santayana said, don't learn history and ...what happens? I forget, I never learned it.

[Canada ALMS fan]

It blows my mind people are looking forward to 2014/2015. Let's all get pumped up about settling for less technology, less speed, and a disaster of a mish mash for the top class. Add to that no chance for the top cars in the world to attend the major enduros. Can you say a watered down, tube frame Walmart version of ELMS? I guess if you are one of the 12 GA fans it is like winning the lottery as you are gaining the ALMS GT class but for the ALMS fans it is a disaster. No thanks, I have better things to do with my life. Am I thrilled the WEC will be my only option? No, but it is reality and I will deal with it until things (hopefully) get better in North America. The GA fans think the series won't miss us? We ARE the majority of the fans, we are passionate, and we put our money where our mouths are attending multiple races each year. 2014? Nope.
Telling us the cars are cool and fast over and over will not make us suddenly interested. ALMS fans have no need to get over ourselves and we owe the series nothing, we ARE the customers and they are choosing not to listen. I therefore choose not to support them. I may watch on TV but I will not plan my calendar around it or take to vacations to watch. Oh, and watch the attendance at the WEC race in Texas if you want to see fans vote with their wallets.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Well to be fair to the attendance comment, other than making promoters richers, to major sports the league/series itself the most important thing about attendance is to make the event look better on Television...

Of course, Sports Car Racing isn't a major American sport... So attendance is likely much more important. It would appear they (crowds) not only prefer the ALMS format but also prefer longer races.

When USCR gets 2.0s then it won't matter. On cable that is, will that ever happen? I'm guessing no...

[Maelochs]

Canada ALMS fan---I plan to go to Sebring, just to see. It will still have real GTE racing, and at least a couple P2s. I am not all excited but I am going to give the new series a chance.

What I am all excited about is 2016. To make 2016 work sports car fans somehow have to make USCR management realize that if they want a financially successful series they need real cars---maybe not a fleet of factory-prepped P1s, but a Lot more than a grid of DPs.

I really wish, instead of having to debate factual data, we could be looking forward to how to convince USCR management not to go for the lowest common denominator, path-of-least-resistance and thus let the series slowly wither.

It's a fact we are going to be watching DPs for two years (or at least one; I am assuming USCR won't go break in a single season) if we watch North American sports car racing. Nothing we can do about it. What we might be able to influence, is the rest of our North-American-sports-car-fan futures

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

When something that stayed afloat on merit for over a decade is being forcefully changed into something that has been surviving on life support... can you call that evolution?

Forcefully changed? It was sold!









L.P.

[Purist]

Brent, let me straighten out a few things.

1. Many of us just are NOT convinced that series management will act with "common sense". We have SEEN way too many failures of both groups to have that faith anymore! We NEED to SEE this "common sense" borne out by their actions BEFORE we will BELIEVE it. It's just that simple, and we have NOT seen management carry out those actions, yet. (ALL of those issues, like speeding up DPs, opening things up to development, cracking down on bumper-car behavior, etc fall under this umbrella of concern.)

2. Rooting for the LMP2s will not matter if the rules are such that they cannot win at several of the races/circuits. This is especially important for races like, well, Road America, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, and Daytona.

3. Rooting for LMP2s will also not matter if the DPs play rough, and take every last LMP2 out of contention through contact. If the LMPCs are a couple seconds a lap slower, and all the competitive P2s are punted off, even a Stop-and-Go-Plus-Sixty won't be an adequate deterrent. (As absurd as this one sounds, plenty of us have this worry that some of the DP drivers are simply going to take out the P2s. A few seasons ago, at Barcelona, Audi pulled ALL their cars mid-race, because Dr. Ullrich decided the Mercedes drivers were trying to take them out in a DTM race.)

4. There is a LIE that MUST stop! The ALMS DID, in fact, act to KEEP the LMP competition strong for 2007 and 2008. The ACO changed LMP2 from 775kg to 850kg over the 2006/07 offseason. The ALMS upped the cars to 800kg in 2007, and 825kg in 2008. They did NOT "slavishly follow the ACO" on this one! (BTW, the 2006 Acuras only got down to about 800kg anyway, so 2007 wasn't really a handicap for them.)

5. The ALMS couldn't help but lose at least one of the manufacturers come 2009. Audi wasn't going to accept LMP2s still being competitive, and Porsche wasn't building an LMP1. Acura was transitioning from LMP2 to LMP1. Acura hadn't sold ANY customer cars at this point. Kolles couldn't even handle the old R10s. Dyson couldn't reliably get the RS Spyder into the relatively narrow setup "sweet spot" to keep pace with Penske, rather like Intersport couldn't do the same with the Creation chassis. Not to mention, the P1 Acura only had a 4.0-litre, atmospheric V8, which couldn't stand up against the V10 and V12 turbo diesels. So, your suggestion for this situation was what?

6. In addition, Audi's greatest advantage had NOTHING to do with pace; they were simply reliable as hell! You could slow them down to the privateers all you want; it wouldn't matter! What can you reasonably do when the privateer cars simply BREAK?! This is precisely the reason why the LMP2 class was a joke before the Porsches and Acuras showed up. The Orecas, old Pilbeams, and old Lolas were too hopelessly inconsistent. Before that, the Lola/MGs were fast enough (witness Dyson), but the cars BROKE too often! That is NOT Audi's fault, and they don't deserve to be punished for the routine failures of others (not that it would have stopped them from winning most of the races anyway).

7. Yes, there is a point at which holding the factories back IS telling them that they are expressly NOT welcome in your series, and they WILL take the hint, and LEAVE you high and dry!

8. Again, we NEED to SEE the management demonstrate that they will listen to us with the new rules package. At present, we have ZERO indication of what that package will be, and you just magically expect us to give them the benefit of the doubt on this?! Maybe it isn't the correct path, but there is certainly merit to the train of thought that says management won't really respond to anything less than action that impacts their bottom line. (Writing strongly worded letters to the series? There was something said on that matter in the movie "Grand Prix", and that was back in 1966! Do you honestly think that large, cumbersome organizations have, on the whole, gotten any more responsive in the last 47 years?!)

Brent, Lanky Turtle, Speed-King, etc, you're asking for us to go on faith, and frankly, that's NOT going to happen. We KNOW we've been burned, which is precisely WHY we're not going to be so trusting this time around. We DID learn from our history, and our skepticism is a consequence of that. However, we still know what we like and want, and you don't have the right to tell us what we should or shouldn't enjoy in Sportscar racing.

If you ask, yes, it is going to take what we see as a well-managed series failing to make LMPs and GTEs work on this continent to convince us that that racing CAN'T work here. We've already acknowledged that the ALMS was BADLY managed in a number of respects, so your case has not been made. You want to convince us? Then, you have to do so by using our standards.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Seems there are two camps in sports-car racing: Fans who would be happy with GT only, and those that want prototypes.

Seeing as the series can't afford to lose any fans, maybe both types of cars should be included?

Anyway, this is all worthless. We know the basic shape of the near future: DPs and P2s as the top class, followed by PCs, GTE (called GTLM) and GTC (called GTGA of GT Daytona or crippled pigeon droppings or whatever, who cares.)

That's what we are going to get.

Any thinking about where the series is headed has no meaning unless we are considering 2016, in which case there really is no reason to consider DPs. If the series goes with DPs in 2016, it dies in two years max. If not, then it will likely adopt directly or adopt something based on the new FIA/ACO prototype chassis (P2 is due for an upgrade in 2015, and PC who knows?)

Everyone thinking about the shape of the series in 2014 is wasting brain space. And the only reason to even think about a GT-only series is to get rid of DPs, which will be gone in 2016 to be replaced with better cars, or will be gone soon after, when USCR dies and is replaced by a better series.

That's it. So why even consider an all-GT series? Obviously the top-tier series on the continent should include prototypes, if it wants to attract all sports car fans.

Really kind of silly that we keep debating stuff which is either settled or irrelevant. What makes sense to me is to discuss how best to lobby the USCR management to get them to save the series with a serious prototype class in 2016.

Is boycotting the series the best way, or attending the races and sending an email a week explaining that we won't be back if DPs come back in 2016?

That is a discussion which might actually affect the future of the sport.

Arguing about what to put on track in 2014 is worthless.

I say boycott.

Otherwise, if attendance at former Grand-Am events increases, it will be lauded as proof of the DP concept. It doesn't make sense to me to pay to complain, especially if my presence can be construed as support for DP.

Everyone knows that there is a fan "contingent" that would attend Sebring even if it was contested by riding lawn mowers, but I think significantly lower attendance at Sebring MIGHT get someone's attention.

Letters to sponsors might have some clout. Glen Beck is now on radio because enough people wrote to sponsors when he was on Fox and the plug was pulled. Expressing dissatisfaction to USCR management won't do much of anything, I'm afraid. They've already declared the fans to be winners, i.e. satisfied. Why do anything if they've already decided the fans are happy?

I'm intrigued by the new LMP1 regs for 2014 and what cars will emerge from that rule set. In USCR, we get to look forward to new paint jobs.

Just because ALMS can't continue does not justify boring BS cars. If we can't have ALMS, then USCR needs to come up with something exciting to watch. Instead, they have one answer: DP.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I know he was being over the top, but if the ACO does allow DPs in the Le Mans 24, what are they getting out of it?

They should be able to run Daytona or Watkins Glen then.

Back in the 1970s and 1980s (my favorite era), IMSA cars routinely competed at Le Mans in special IMSA classes (IMSA GT for Porsches, BMW's, Corvettes, Camaros and Monzas; IMSA GTX for Porsche 935's and Ferraris; and IMSA GTP for Marches and the Group 44 Jaguars).

However, at no time in the '70s or '80s did the top level Le Mans Group 6 cars (Porsche 936, Alpine-Renault, etc.) or the Group C Porsche 956s and Lancia LC2's EVER race at Daytona or Watkins Glen, or in any other IMSA race.

If the ACO were to create a separate class at Le Mans in 2014 for DP (or Grand-Am GT) cars, it might be unpopular, but it certainly wouldn't be unprecedented.

--- Andy Flinn

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

Great interview.

So a guy that drives both DP and LMP2 says that DPs are slower, heavier, have a higher center of gravity, are old technology and, most significantly to me, states that they drive more like a GT car than a prototype.

I'll ask this again:

What does a Daytona Prototype bring to the race/show/event, other than low cost (compared to LMP) and the fact that there are nine billion of them on the grid in Grand-Am, that a GTE car with a 20 percent larger restrictor doesn't?

To me, a prototype only makes sense if it has significantly higher performance than a GT car. Since the DPs and GTs don't handle much differently than each other, then giving GTE a small restrictor increase, possibly coupled with a slight weight reduction (if it can be done via ballast removal, and only if needed, which I doubt) to bring them up to DP performance.

Using Corvette as an example, what benefit does Corvette derive from running a Corvette DP AND a Corvette GTE in USCR? Anyone can see than the Vette GTE is a Corvette, while someone had to come up with bodywork that would fit over several generic chassis with a pre-determined wheelbase that looks "Corvette-like".

A GTE car can be made faster than a DP for far less money and effort than making a DP SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a GTE. GTE cars are easy to tell apart from each other and they are readily identifiable by the casual fan as being a Corvette, Porsche, or Ferrari. GTE hands down looks better than DP. They showcase the technical ability of the manufacturer in a much more identifiable way. The cars can be raced in series other than Grand-Am/USCR without having to create a special class for them. Changing restrictor size for USCR would make it very easy for a GTE team to race at Le Mans, if desired.

If DPs don't offer a more exciting show than GT, what's the point?

Here's the point....

Starworks currrently fields two DP's in the Grand-Am series. They currently field no LMP2's in the ALMS series. Also, based on a comparison of current grid sizes in both series (13 DP's in the Grand-Am and 10 GTE's in the ALMS), which class is really more economically viable and cost effective? Could it be that higher technology costs prevent the GTE class from achieving the same grid numbers as Grand-Am DP?

--- Andy Flinn

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I say boycott.

Otherwise, if attendance at former Grand-Am events increases, it will be lauded as proof of the DP concept. It doesn't make sense to me to pay to complain, especially if my presence can be construed as support for DP.

Everyone knows that there is a fan "contingent" that would attend Sebring even if it was contested by riding lawn mowers, but I think significantly lower attendance at Sebring MIGHT get someone's attention.

Letters to sponsors might have some clout. Glen Beck is now on radio because enough people wrote to sponsors when he was on Fox and the plug was pulled. Expressing dissatisfaction to USCR management won't do much of anything, I'm afraid. They've already declared the fans to be winners, i.e. satisfied. Why do anything if they've already decided the fans are happy?

I'm intrigued by the new LMP1 regs for 2014 and what cars will emerge from that rule set. In USCR, we get to look forward to new paint jobs.

Just because ALMS can't continue does not justify boring BS cars. If we can't have ALMS, then USCR needs to come up with something exciting to watch. Instead, they have one answer: DP.

For me it's pretty simple. The merger gives US sports car racing a chance to get everyone back in the same boat, no more split audiences or allegiances, just one direction and one voice going forward. This could be a huge boon. The ALMS had fantastic prototype grids from 06-08, and from 99-03. The racing from 99-13 has been great, if at times a little thin. We all appear to be in agreement that the ALMS offerings in prototype are no longer suitable. Dyson runs one car that can't seem to finish a race, MMPR are fast but have been bitten by mistakes and fragility the past few years and for a shining moment we had Rebellion who didn't get US strategy down and are unfortunately reducing their schedule to work on their '14 WEC car.

In 2014 some may say we still don't get satisfactory prototype racing, but we get all the benefits of one series. IMSA has not suggested that DP is the solution going forward. In fact they have said there will be a new formula as early as 2016 and keep referring to 2014 and 2015 as compromise years, transition years and such, where they tried to save as many of their stakeholders' interests as possible before redefining sports car racing in America in 2016.

That is why I am supportive of IMSA in 2014, it is a bit of a hodgepodge, but the grids will be big, the GT cars that have kept me interested in the ALMS regular season and the big events, Daytona, Sebring and Petit will all be on the same calendar. I get effectively what I would have had ALMS pushed on, only with the positives of a wind change coming in favor of North American sports car racing. Why would I stop watching? The GTLM class at Daytona will be worth 2014 let alone everything else we get!

Chris

Edit: I also might add that I'm quite excited about the Prototype race at Sebring next year!

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Without Audi and Toyota what does any prototype class bring to America that GTE doesn't?

And don't say speed, with the exception of LMP1, which is gone from USCR, the speed of DP or LMP2 is no more impressive than that of GTE, especially when you're at the track.

STABILITY

Let's review.

The Penske/Porsche, HPD and Peugeot (Sebring and Petit only) programs are all history, Audi hasn't contested a full ALMS season in years, and Toyota has never raced a factory LMP in the ALMS. Furthermore, the spec LMPC's almost outnumber the all-privateer LMP1 and LMP2 entires in the series this year.

It also doesn't help that despite two successful events (2011 and 2012), the WEC elected not to be part of the 12 Hours of Sebring this year. Note that the DP's, Grand-Am, the ISC, the France family, Chip Ganassi and the new USCR had NOTHING to do with this decision.

Funny, it took 40 years of racing at Sebring (1973-2012) to discover that the more things change in sports car racing - and things change A LOT - the more they stay the same. In some ways, next year at Sebring it will by 1973 all over again.

One professional sports car racing event (Austin) a year in the U.S. may be enough for some, but it sure doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

--- Andy Flinn

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Purist

Brent, let me straighten out a few things.

1. Many of us just are NOT convinced that series management will act with "common sense". We have SEEN way too many failures of both groups to have that faith anymore! We NEED to SEE this "common sense" borne out by their actions BEFORE we will BELIEVE it. It's just that simple, and we have NOT seen management carry out those actions, yet. (ALL of those issues, like speeding up DPs, opening things up to development, cracking down on bumper-car behavior, etc fall under this umbrella of concern.)

I can't say anything about these, but considering this merger is all about bringing in the good from both sides, I think we can have enough faith in the management to get it at least close to right. As for the above, the speeding up DPs and opening up development is a necessity because of GTE and the factory teams. They can't slow down the entire field to placate Michael Shank and Wayne Taylor's moronic posturing, that should be obvious. But most of this thread seems to take it as gospel that that will happen. Does it occur to everyone that these people are not as stupid as some people seem to think that they are? You can be not convinced, but assuming the worst possible scenario up front is not a good way to look at things and will leave you looking for the negatives, like all of the old Champ Car guys used to. That's not a way to be much of a fan, is it?

Originally Posted by Purist

2. Rooting for the LMP2s will not matter if the rules are such that they cannot win at several of the races/circuits. This is especially important for races like, well, Road America, Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, and Daytona.

We don't know what the rules are yet so why assume the worst? I'm figuring that the DPs will have horsepower whereas the P2s will have handling. DPs don't have traction control, either, so if any of those tracks happens to be wet its gonna probably be game over for the DPs, won't it? Besides that, there are many other factors in any endurance race besides outright speed, a fact every single one of us knows. We race to see who the best is, don't we? And more to the point, with teams like Pickett and Dyson and ESM, do you not think they will want to beat the odds? And since Acura will have more data to start with on improving their cars, does it not stand to reason they stand a better chance at it than the DP runners?

Originally Posted by Purist

3. Rooting for LMP2s will also not matter if the DPs play rough, and take every last LMP2 out of contention through contact. If the LMPCs are a couple seconds a lap slower, and all the competitive P2s are punted off, even a Stop-and-Go-Plus-Sixty won't be an adequate deterrent. (As absurd as this one sounds, plenty of us have this worry that some of the DP drivers are simply going to take out the P2s. A few seasons ago, at Barcelona, Audi pulled ALL their cars mid-race, because Dr. Ullrich decided the Mercedes drivers were trying to take them out in a DTM race.)

Good God, is this a real concern?! You actually think that the Grand Am guys are gonna use their $400,000+ racing cars as battering rams? And have you forgotten how ****ed Michael Shank was when Juan Pablo Montoya took his car out at Indianapolis last year? Have you not noticed that the series HAS been cracking down on banger racing? And more to the point, what's in it for the DP teams to take opposition cars out? If six cars get knocked out in one race, that's something that big fines and penalties get doled out over. 'As absurd as this one sounds'. Yep, it's absurd. Pretty hard to say otherwise. This isn't NASCAR.

Originally Posted by Purist

4. There is a LIE that MUST stop! The ALMS DID, in fact, act to KEEP the LMP competition strong for 2007 and 2008. The ACO changed LMP2 from 775kg to 850kg over the 2006/07 offseason. The ALMS upped the cars to 800kg in 2007, and 825kg in 2008. They did NOT "slavishly follow the ACO" on this one! (BTW, the 2006 Acuras only got down to about 800kg anyway, so 2007 wasn't really a handicap for them.)

Why did they change it at all? The Audi vs. Porsche battles were epic, the stuff people get really excited about. Yeah, Audi was at a disadvantage at some tracks, but they had an advantage at others. Penske's Porsches were the same. If they had stayed and Acura had been there, the problem of no Prototype field might not be here now.

Originally Posted by Purist

5. The ALMS couldn't help but lose at least one of the manufacturers come 2009. Audi wasn't going to accept LMP2s still being competitive, and Porsche wasn't building an LMP1. Acura was transitioning from LMP2 to LMP1. Acura hadn't sold ANY customer cars at this point. Kolles couldn't even handle the old R10s. Dyson couldn't reliably get the RS Spyder into the relatively narrow setup "sweet spot" to keep pace with Penske, rather like Intersport couldn't do the same with the Creation chassis. Not to mention, the P1 Acura only had a 4.0-litre, atmospheric V8, which couldn't stand up against the V10 and V12 turbo diesels. So, your suggestion for this situation was what?

Simple. Tell Audi to suck it up or get out. There was more that they could get out of that car, and they got more out with the R15. Audi's level of $$$ spent on the prototype categories caused many of the problems the ALMS has in getting fields in those categories, and their history of whining over not having the advantage over the field went back years at that point. Dyson didn't have the time to get the RS Spyder into the sweet spot, and we know how well Acura's later exploits went. Both of them sold customers cars, too. Did Audi? As you point out, Kolles had all kinds of troubles with the R10 they had. Audi has the money. If they want to get back to pounding Penske and company, get the R15 out there and see what its got.

Originally Posted by Purist

6. In addition, Audi's greatest advantage had NOTHING to do with pace; they were simply reliable as hell! You could slow them down to the privateers all you want; it wouldn't matter! What can you reasonably do when the privateer cars simply BREAK?! This is precisely the reason why the LMP2 class was a joke before the Porsches and Acuras showed up. The Orecas, old Pilbeams, and old Lolas were too hopelessly inconsistent. Before that, the Lola/MGs were fast enough (witness Dyson), but the cars BROKE too often! That is NOT Audi's fault, and they don't deserve to be punished for the routine failures of others (not that it would have stopped them from winning most of the races anyway).

I agree on this one, but the ALMS unquestionably changed the rules to benefit them - and they shouldn't have. Nobody was gonna say the Porsches and Acuras couldn't keep up the pace over time. Yes, the MG-Lolas broke too frequently, but that's what you get with a highly-evolved chassis and a highly-stressed turbocharged four-pot. In 2004 with the EX257 vs. R8, this point is valid. But it wasn't when it was R10 vs. RS Spyder.

Originally Posted by Purist

7. Yes, there is a point at which holding the factories back IS telling them that they are expressly NOT welcome in your series, and they WILL take the hint, and LEAVE you high and dry!

There is a difference between telling them that they are not welcome and not changing the rules to benefit them. If the R15 had been good enough to beat the RS Spyder and ARX-02, then you have a benefit, no? Would Audi have bailed out had they not gotten their own way? Perhaps. But also perhaps not. They left anyways once they had destroyed all of the competition, didn't they?

Originally Posted by Purist

Brent, Lanky Turtle, Speed-King, etc, you're asking for us to go on faith, and frankly, that's NOT going to happen. We KNOW we've been burned, which is precisely WHY we're not going to be so trusting this time around. We DID learn from our history, and our skepticism is a consequence of that. However, we still know what we like and want, and you don't have the right to tell us what we should or shouldn't enjoy in Sportscar racing.

I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't enjoy. I'm merely saying that the DPs will be there, and nothing any of us can do will change that. The diehards are taking that as a sign of the apocalypse and that the type of racing they know and love is dying on them. That's their opinion, but it says to me that they are like many of the old open wheel warriors, people who care more about what they don't like than what they do. Stop being fans because the P1s are gone? Other than them being gone and the new DP and GT entrants, what has changed? The management? Yes, but that was inevitable at some point. The racing style? Nobody knows that yet, and everyone here from the ALMS side is acting like the sky is falling.

Originally Posted by Purist

If you ask, yes, it is going to take what we see as a well-managed series failing to make LMPs and GTEs work on this continent to convince us that that racing CAN'T work here. We've already acknowledged that the ALMS was BADLY managed in a number of respects, so your case has not been made. You want to convince us? Then, you have to do so by using our standards.

How do you expect to get a well-managed series with LMPs and GTEs now, exactly? As far as the case not being made, whose fault is that? More to the point, if the ALMS had made some different decisions at different portions in its history, it might not be here now. It was not always poorly managed, in fact in some ways it was managed well. It did unquestionably establish a real connection between American racing teams and the 24 Hours of Le Mans, a great benefit to this sport. It did at times give fantastic racing, and it did have the ability to be more than it was if different decisions had been made. You won't be able to ever get just what you want, no matter what any of us do.

Nothing any of us who enjoy Grand Am can ever say or do clearly will convince some people, and it will be those people's loss. The fact that American Le Mans Fans got shut down by its operators said a lot to me. They really are looking at this as the Champ Car guys did after the end there. It's sad, yes, but those of us who love the sport move on and watch what we like. Those who can't, well, there is always the one WEC round and forums reminiscing about the past. That'll be their loss and that of the series, but the series can not do just what the ALMS diehards want. It has to get the maximum benefit to the maximum number of people in the short term, and plan for the future in the longer one. That will mean compromises in the short term, of course, but many of us can live with that. In the long term, its quite obvious that USCR wants to work with the ACO, that's why Jim France is going to Le Mans. But they can't let somebody else decide their rulebook, and whatever the 2016 rules are, they have to work on this side of the pond first and foremost, something the ACO, particularly not the FIA is working with them, struggles with. I'm hopeful they'll get it right, though, because if they do great things can happen.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by BullMan

If it does then Sprint Cup must be awesome!

BullMan, you're not going to try to argue that professional sports car racing in the U.S. - be it Grand-Am or ALMS or even the WEC - enjoys anywhere near the economic health or popularity of NASCAR, are you?

--- Andy Flinn

(No, I am NOT a NASCAR fan. I am simply acknowledging what should be quite obvious to even NASCAR's harshest critics.)

[Dodge_Swinger]

NASCAR is incredibly profitable, just like Wal-Mart or McDonald's.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

One DP at this year's Daytona 24 came from 7 laps back twice to get back on the lead lap by wave-arounds. So they were given at least 8 laps back.

Now that is just sad. So much for "sport".

Were is the ""sport"" in out-spending your competition, only to run off and hide until it's time to finish one-two and laps ahead of the nearest opponent to claim an eleveth victory at Sebring in 14 attempts?

That's sport? No, that's more like a technological exhibition.

--- Andy Flinn

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Lanky Turtle explains exactly what DPs bring to the show: teams. Nothing else, really. But those teams will be essential to the new version of uSCR launched in 2016---either composing a large part of the successful new prototype class, or the force which kills the series by demanding DPs continue.

Yeah, who needs those pesky teams, anyway? After all, �*t's only the fans who matter, right? Somebody should tell those DP owners to park their 13 cars next year and make way for all of those phantom LMP2's.

--- Andy Flinn

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Did you not watch the bell isle race and see those $400k race cars all torn up? if they are willing to that to each other on the first lap whats going to keep them from doing that to more fragile cf p2s.and It wasn't mike shank it was Peter Barron at Indy last year when Juan Pablo montoya took out diazel.and I'm as convinced as they were that it cost them the championship.to the sister 01 car.yes they have become stricter on the contact because its now the same race director as the alms.and that's a great thing because I haven't seen Rojas push who ever he wants out of the way so far this year.eventhough they are tougher on contact this year there is still a few drivers making bone head moves and even having post race contact.

[TF110]

I dont think lmps are more fragile. Just the extended body parts but they can come off any car. GTE cars are carbon bodied, just not the chassis.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Were is the ""sport"" in out-spending your competition, only to run off and hide until it's time to finish one-two and laps ahead of the nearest opponent to claim an eleveth victory at Sebring in 14 attempts?

That's sport? No, that's more like a technological exhibition.

--- Andy Flinn

Your reply doesn't address what greg is talking about. Even if there were 20 LMP1s, if the race is run under Grand-Am's regulations, multiple cautions and wave arounds allow a team that's 7 or 8 laps down to get back on the lead lap. That interpretation of "sport" has nothing to do with DP or LMP, it is further proof of Grand-Am's hokey race management to artificially create a (fake) dramatic finish. If the 2013 Le Mans 24 Hours was run by Grand-Am officials, with the exact grid the race has this year, it would suck. Rebellion Racing, as much as I like the team, would always be on the lead lap because of cautions and wave arounds. This has nothing to do with the type of cars. Using your example of Audi at Sebring, they may have won 11 of 14 attempts under Grand-Am rules (kind of like Gannssi, yes?), but every other LMP1 car would have been on the same lap because of "competition yellows" and wave arounds.

Grand-Am says the DP FORMULA creates close and affordable racing. OK, then step back, stop throwing a bunch of yellows and stop waving cars around to make up for lost laps in order to create an artificial "show". Why penalize teams that have put in the work to prepare the car, drive a clean race, and have a fast and efficient pit crew? If your car is 8 laps down in hour 6 of a 24 hour race, then your team had a bad day and the teams that put in the WORK to be at the front end of the grid and DESERVE to be there get the reward.

Dislike of Grand-Am isn't just about DPs. If Grand-Am started officiating Le Mans or WEC, it would be pretty terrible.

[Dodge_Swinger]

From BrentJackson:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purist
3. Rooting for LMP2s will also not matter if the DPs play rough, and take every last LMP2 out of contention through contact. If the LMPCs are a couple seconds a lap slower, and all the competitive P2s are punted off, even a Stop-and-Go-Plus-Sixty won't be an adequate deterrent. (As absurd as this one sounds, plenty of us have this worry that some of the DP drivers are simply going to take out the P2s. A few seasons ago, at Barcelona, Audi pulled ALL their cars mid-race, because Dr. Ullrich decided the Mercedes drivers were trying to take them out in a DTM race.)
Good God, is this a real concern?! You actually think that the Grand Am guys are gonna use their $400,000+ racing cars as battering rams? And have you forgotten how ****ed Michael Shank was when Juan Pablo Montoya took his car out at Indianapolis last year? Have you not noticed that the series HAS been cracking down on banger racing? And more to the point, what's in it for the DP teams to take opposition cars out? If six cars get knocked out in one race, that's something that big fines and penalties get doled out over. 'As absurd as this one sounds'. Yep, it's absurd. Pretty hard to say otherwise. This isn't NASCAR.

From the recent Paul Tracy interview (http://www.motorsport.com/grandam/ne...-le-mans/)“I enjoy the sports cars. Its fun. I think the formula is good. I like the DP formula because the cars are all very equal, you can race hard with guys, wheel bang and its just good hard racing. Of course with the prototypes they really frown on people bumping each other, and really racing hard.”

It sounds like Paul initially told the truth, i.e. in DP, you can run into people and nobody cares, then he catches himself and goes into politically correct mode.

Scott Pruett says he likes the fact that you can bang around in DP.

The announcer at Detroit, first lap : "They're already rubbin'!"

Grand-Am may be trying to change this, but there's still quite a bit of NASCAR style carnage at Grand-Am officiated races. The competitors extoll the virtues of car to car contact. I think it's a DIRECT influence of the NASCAR "way" in that seeing a car with duct tape and battle damage somehow equals a strong racing effort. The article on the Grand-Am site about repairing cars in time for Mid-Ohio emphasizes how easy the cars are to repair, which is certainly a benefit when cars are allowed to ram each other off the track. After all, "rubbin' is racin'", right? Don't forget the "(insert gay slur here) car" comment by a member of the France family and you can see why Purist may have some concerns about P2s being damaged.

In the interest of "keeping it real", OK, we're stuck with DPs for at least two years, perhaps more. Can USCR at least use Le Mans style race management regarding car to car contact and caution periods? It doesn't cost a dime. Actually, it might save teams some money in duct tape costs. Assuming DPs are as equal as they're supposed to be, then there shouldn't a need to wave around a car so many times that they make up 7 or 8 laps. Grand-Am/USCR isn't supposed to NASCAR, but in many ways, race management seems to cater to the NASCAR fan base.

[Dodge_Swinger]

I will agree that the announcer isn't hand-picked by the sanctioning body, but they're supposed to be hired for their knowledge of or experience in the series being broadcast. I highly doubt the broadcast team for NASCAR would ever be the Radio Le Mans guys or that Tom Kristensen would be the color commentator for an NHRA broadcast. I also suspect that the race series at least communicates some talking points and general desire about how their series is portrayed during the broadcast. So, if the general doctrine of a series is "rubbin' is racin'", then the broadcast team is aware of that doctrine.

[sheshnwoody]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I will agree that the announcer isn't hand-picked by the sanctioning body, but they're supposed to be hired for their knowledge of or experience in the series being broadcast. I highly doubt the broadcast team for NASCAR would ever be the Radio Le Mans guys or that Tom Kristensen would be the color commentator for an NHRA broadcast. I also suspect that the race series at least communicates some talking points and general desire about how their series is portrayed during the broadcast. So, if the general doctrine of a series is "rubbin' is racin'", then the broadcast team is aware of that doctrine.

Don't everyone be shocked when "hi to my family at home" is front and center in the broadcast booth...when he retires!