Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by kober

Could somebody please remind me when exactly Nissan put their badge on the DW?

It was right around the Sebring track demo. They had a Nissan temp motor installed, on loan as it were. Once the car 'proved' itself at Sebring with the demo laps, then Nissan jumped on board and became a full engine supplier and possibly even a cash contributor.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Machin

True... unfortunately that point will be lost on most people because the unusual layout distracts from this point. The low fuel consumption and low tyre wear are functions of the low engine power and low weight; not the delta layout. Its like bolting a supercharger onto a car and then claiming that its actually the nice new red paint job that makes the car faster!



Unfortunately that won't happen... having no minimum weight will lead to a spending war; something that all forms of motorsport are trying to avoid... but I think it does show that the power and weight limits should be lowered from the current high limits and I definitely think tyre allocations should be lowered...

It's not trivial to get 450 KG out of a P2 even if the rules allowed it. The DW throws away 1/3 of the car to do that. The form was based on the function of minimum weight. It's possible a rectangular car could do it, but they would be starting on the back foot.

Originally Posted by Machin

Further confirmation that the team were not being told to run to a lap time dictated by the AcO....

You will find all sorts of quotes from these same people (earlier in this thread and around the web) where they say ACO wanted 3:45. It was supposed to be between P1 & P2, which turned out to be 3:38. Suddenly they had the goalpost moved on them, but it appears they were ready to do that

Originally Posted by Maelochs

NISSAN DELTAWING COMPLETES STRONG DEBUT AT LE MANS
http://www.deltawingracing.com/news/...t-le-mans.html


LE MANS: DeltaWing’s Road To LM24 John Dagys
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-road-to-lm24/

For some people black & white isn't enough!

[Machin]

Originally Posted by miatanut

For some people black & white isn't enough!

Originally Posted by from link above

“The ACO has prescribed a time for us, it's between LMP1 and
LMP2 times and we'll be able to do that,” Dayton says. “Obviously
we want to make sure we don't get in the way of anybody who is
racing, since we're unclassified. So we'll be very respectful of the
other competitors.”

That is pretty clear isn't it?! ;-) that probably explains why they were so much slower than the power/weight and power/drag would suggest, and I guess during the race they were just worried about reliabilty, hence running even slower.... shame....

[supermario21]

I think that they should have voluntarily dropped to the back of the queue of every safety car. It would have been safer to negotiate traffic considering they were both 1. slow and 2. extremely narrow at the front. I know Nakajima was a bit wreckless but when you're racing for the lead in the Porsche curves of all places, having a car that can barely seen is a bit dangerous.

[optica]

Originally Posted by supermario21

I think that they should have voluntarily dropped to the back of the queue of every safety car. It would have been safer to negotiate traffic considering they were both 1. slow and 2. extremely narrow at the front. I know Nakajima was a bit wreckless but when you're racing for the lead in the Porsche curves of all places, having a car that can barely seen is a bit dangerous.

Prior to the safety car the DeltaWing was lapping around 3.45 which is hardly slow....Perhaps it might have prevented the incident if the rules forced LMP1 constructors to build vehicles that can be seen out of properly.
I have been able to see the DeltaWing for months now and my eyesight is pretty rubbish.

[wolfhound]

Toyota say sorry to Nissan for Nakajima's crashing into the DeltaWing.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...4DDF9EBC9EC533

I wonder what else he will hit before the season is over if his F1 record is anything to go by?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Having watched it again, it looks like Nakajima didn't use his mirrors and just careered into the D-Wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJAiZVuC3YI

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Having watched it again, it looks like Nakajima didn't use his mirrors and just careered into the D-Wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJAiZVuC3YI

He had just partially passed it, the DW was not going to disappear off the face of the earth in a split second.

[optica]

Although there can be no excuse for Nakajima hitting the DeltaWing it does serve to highlight an issue that I'm surprised doesn't seem to have been much considered before. In a discipline where good visibility is of such importance it hardly seems a sensible option to paint cars black or very dark colours for that matter. The DeltaWing wasn't unique in this respect as I sometimes mistook some other prototypes for it at a quick glance. Perhaps it is an element of multi-class endurance racing that needs to be examined.

[Articus]

Toyota refused to have any Japanese/supported teams finish the race. They retired and took the DW with them haha.

[kober]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

It was right around the Sebring track demo. They had a Nissan temp motor installed, on loan as it were. Once the car 'proved' itself at Sebring with the demo laps, then Nissan jumped on board and became a full engine supplier and possibly even a cash contributor.

Is, at least, the engine built by Nissan, or is it just another example of re-badging? I'm not sure if I recall correctly, but isn't the engine based on the RML power plant used by Chevrolet in WTCC?

PS. I'm just asking, because after watching all those Nissan commercials over the weekend, one might think that DW is actually Nissan's idea.

[Fogelhund]

The first engine they tested was the RML WTCC engine, but it was just a temporary solution, until RML built an actual Nissan based engine bespoke for the Delta Wing.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by kober

...one might think that DW is actually Nissan's idea.

plenty of people i know think just that.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Toyota say sorry to Nissan for Nakajima's crashing into the DeltaWing.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...4DDF9EBC9EC533

I wonder what else he will hit before the season is over if his F1 record is anything to go by?

The higher up man looks like he has chastised Nakajima for his mistake. The Japanese are very respectful.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by TF110

The higher up man looks like he has chastised Nakajima for his mistake. The Japanese are very respectful.

How dare he drive into a chicane!

[Matt]

Originally Posted by wnut

How dare he drive into a chicane!

...it wasn't a chicane.

[dxk1]

As much as I wasn't a fan of the DW running at Le Mans, I wanted it to see it finish once it was decided it was going to get the chance. I felt really bad that it got so unceremoniously shoved aside by Nakajima. I guess this pointed out a big flaw in such a lightweight design and that is that it really cannot survivie much of an impact. It's my guess most other cars might have been able to limp back to the pits for a repair. Unfortunately, we'll never know. It would have been nice if they had allowed it a tow to the pits and a repair as it wasn't running for points anyway and really as sort of an exhibition.

DK

[Maelochs]

That's a tough one to figure.

Possibly a heavier car might have traveled less after being hit; possibly a heavier car would have had more traction on the grass. Certainly a heavier car would have hit with more force if it did hit, and might have caused a greater reaction in the Toyota, possibly causing a greater wreck between more cars.

It would really depend on too many factors to calculate. Any car might sustain terminal damage or not just by hitting a few degrees twisted in one direction or another.

From what I understand, the fatal injury was to the steering; once they got the differential unlocked, the steering was still too damaged. That coulds have happened to any car (I think the #80 Lizard went down that way.)

Speaking of Porsches ... how many times have we seen Porsches sidelined because of radiators crushed in front-end collisions? We cannot say that Porsches aren't good because of that.

The DWing got hit by a car cutting across its nose, was punted onto so me wet grass where there was no sterring traction, and smacked the wall. Any car might have had the same result. We don't know what another 300 kilos of weight or another meter of front track might have done.

What we do know is that the car got decent fuel mileage and used a lot less tire, while hitting its target lap times, which were pretty much what was intended.

I cannot say it is better or worse than most other designs. I can say the car apparently demonstrated the soundness of its design: it achieved what it set out to achieve.

I have heard that other tracks want it to run unclassified there, I guess because it is a fan draw. I'd like to see it at all WEC/ELMS/aLMS events just as the Porsche GT3 RSR Hybrid ran at a bunch of different tracks unclassified.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

How dare he drive into a chicane!

Hardly.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I have heard that other tracks want it to run unclassified there, I guess because it is a fan draw. I'd like to see it at all WEC/ELMS/aLMS events just as the Porsche GT3 RSR Hybrid ran at a bunch of different tracks unclassified.

I never expected this, but it makes sense. It got a lot of hoopla, and what promotor wouldn't want a bit of that action!

I hope the powers that be can agree to let this happen.

[canam]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That's a tough one to figure.

Possibly a heavier car might have traveled less after being hit; possibly a heavier car would have had more traction on the grass. Certainly a heavier car would have hit with more force if it did hit, and might have caused a greater reaction in the Toyota, possibly causing a greater wreck between more cars.

It would really depend on too many factors to calculate. Any car might sustain terminal damage or not just by hitting a few degrees twisted in one direction or another.

From what I understand, the fatal injury was to the steering; once they got the differential unlocked, the steering was still too damaged. That coulds have happened to any car (I think the #80 Lizard went down that way.)

Speaking of Porsches ... how many times have we seen Porsches sidelined because of radiators crushed in front-end collisions? We cannot say that Porsches aren't good because of that.

The DWing got hit by a car cutting across its nose, was punted onto so me wet grass where there was no sterring traction, and smacked the wall. Any car might have had the same result. We don't know what another 300 kilos of weight or another meter of front track might have done.

What we do know is that the car got decent fuel mileage and used a lot less tire, while hitting its target lap times, which were pretty much what was intended.

I cannot say it is better or worse than most other designs. I can say the car apparently demonstrated the soundness of its design: it achieved what it set out to achieve.

I have heard that other tracks want it to run unclassified there, I guess because it is a fan draw. I'd like to see it at all WEC/ELMS/aLMS events just as the Porsche GT3 RSR Hybrid ran at a bunch of different tracks unclassified.

It would have helped if the Toyota driver had not punted it. So eager to find that last few seconds over 24 hours...those works drivers.

My problem was: with the DW gone, which Audi did I want to win--cos they all seemed so intent on throwing it away. Nishi's problem OK...but the first chicane tomfoolery by the others. The winner was the one who wasn't stupid.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I have heard that other tracks want it to run unclassified there, I guess because it is a fan draw. I'd like to see it at all WEC/ELMS/aLMS events just as the Porsche GT3 RSR Hybrid ran at a bunch of different tracks unclassified.

I guess it can't be helped then since most of the purists can't accept the DeltaWing to run in LMP2.

[skycafe]

Part of the reason I wanted it to continue longer then it did is that the Speed coverage showed very little of it, which was to me rather surprising. I expected it to be 50% of the telecast.... Wasn't it to have an onboard, and did it fail?

[Machin]

Originally Posted by miatanut

It's not trivial to get 450 KG out of a P2 even if the rules allowed it.

I agree... which is why I wouldn't start with an LMP2... I'd start with... wait for it... a Deltawing! (why do all the hard work when most of it has been done for you?)

1, Take a Deltawing.
2, Space out the skinny front wheels on long suspension (a few kg weight increase).
3, Reduce the chassis length. This decreases the weight, increases the torsional ridigity, and moves the weight split further forward.
4, With more weight on the front wheels the rear tyre width can be decreased, and the fronts increased to suite without changing overall vehicle weight. -brake mass is also transferred to the front wheels accordingly. This also has the knock on effect of allowing a wider, more efficient, diffuser (red area in the image below) -because there is more space between the rear wheels.
5, Fit lightweight carbon fibre shrouds around the front wheels. A few kg in total, resulting in an overall car weight matching the original deltawing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Machin

I agree... which is why I wouldn't start with an LMP2... I'd start with... wait for it... a Deltawing! (why do all the hard work when most of it has been done for you?)

1, Take a Deltawing.
2, Space out the skinny front wheels on long suspension (a few kg weight increase).
3, Reduce the chassis length. This decreases the weight, increases the torsional ridigity, and moves the weight split further forward.
4, With more weight on the front wheels the rear tyre width can be decreased, and the fronts increased to suite without changing overall vehicle weight. -brake mass is also transferred to the front wheels accordingly. This also has the knock on effect of allowing a wider, more efficient, diffuser (red area in the image below) -because there is more space between the rear wheels.
5, Fit lightweight carbon fibre shrouds around the front wheels. A few kg in total, resulting in an overall car weight matching the original deltawing.

The only problem is there's increased drag from the front tyres/wheels, even if they are covered with the carbon fibre shrouds. That's why Bowlby designed the front tyres/wheels to be housed where they are, to reduce drag.