USCC (leave your axe outside)

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Forcefully changed? It was sold!

Yes. As the participants are forced to either adapt to lower standards or leave.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Yes. And the participants are forced to either adapt to worse standards or leave.

Really, how long has the current iteration of ACO legal LMP been around? It is in constant change. So that particular dog don't hunt!









L.P.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Dodge_Swinger

I will agree that the announcer isn't hand-picked by the sanctioning body, but they're supposed to be hired for their knowledge of or experience in the series being broadcast. I highly doubt the broadcast team for NASCAR would ever be the Radio Le Mans guys or that Tom Kristensen would be the color commentator for an NHRA broadcast. I also suspect that the race series at least communicates some talking points and general desire about how their series is portrayed during the broadcast. So, if the general doctrine of a series is "rubbin' is racin'", then the broadcast team is aware of that doctrine.

NASCAR, NHRA... you can bet they have a say on who the presenters are, those bodies are involved in the production of the broadcasts, and are not just suggesting who gets a mic.

[Pandamasque]

@HORNDAWG
Are you intentionnally missing the point? I'll make it easier still. Forced change to lower standards is not evolution. Call it communism or whatever.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Brent, if you were the management of the USCR and the majority of the fan base is acting like the "sky is falling" would you not come out with some long term vision and goals to placate them for the next couple of compromise years? Not to mention for the factories. How long do you think it takes to get a top line program up and running properly? A bunch of great prototypes won't just show up overnight. They need to re-inforce that DP will not continue, like it or not, as the vast majority of sportscar fans have rejected the formula. If DP is good enough for some of you here then good on you. The longer they are silent about 2016, the more worried the ALMS fan base becomes. Next the owners will b*tch about having to buy new hardware for 2016 and we'll basically be stuck with Grand Am plus the ALMS GT class. A recipe for failure.
And for the record, no I do not think P2 is acceptable as a top class either, nor are spec tires or aero. They need to be noticeably faster than GTLM. They must be eligible for Le Mans to be viable and have any stature.

[Maelochs]

Point: “1. Many of us just are NOT convinced that series management will act with "common sense".”

Response: “ … considering this merger is all about bringing in the good from both sides, I think we can have enough faith in the management to get it at least close to right.”

Did you read the point? Management in neither series ever really got it “Right.” Rolex stayed with DP and kept throwing NASCAR money at it despite never succeeding in capturing fans, and ALMS turned down nationally known big-buck sponsors, promoted “Green” over “Fast” and didn’t promote anything else at all … and didn’t pay out purses to factories, or to teams, if factory entries won (though there was a program for a few years to compensate winning privateers.)

Among Other Things.

To bring in the Good from both sides (something we All hope happens) the management needs to Recognize what was good on each side. But for over a decade, neither series showed any ability to do that.

There is also the issue of how long the series is taking to even create rules: it is hard for fans to be optimistic when it is June and the 2014 regs are still totally up in the air. Apparently wind tunnel tests will be starting soon, to get a baseline for the two types of cars. Than the two still have to be balanced somehow. So far USCR management has only done a lot of talking, which isn’t helping teams looking to make plans for next season.

Fans want to know what the long-term vision of USCR is, and USCR can’t even deal with its incredibly pressing immediate issues in a timely manner. Not a lot of cause for optimism so far—though spending a huge chunk of cash on Branding is certainly important, right?

“You can be not convinced, but assuming the worst possible scenario up front is not a good way to look at things. That's not a way to be much of a fan, is it?”

Maybe it is exactly right if that is exactly what experience has taught you. I am a fan, but I am not in denial; I am not psychotic. I like sports car racing, but I will not believe in fairy tales to be a “fan.”

Some are more negative than others, but really, as an ALMS fan, one has seen the most popular sports car racing series of the century sell out, because it couldn’t make a buck. What “positive” can one draw from that?

By the way, you are the one saying LMPs won’t work, and thus ruling out a possible positive future. I will address this below.

Point Two is answered above, pretty much.

Point Next: “3. Rooting for LMP2s will also not matter if the DPs play rough, and take every last LMP2 out of contention through contact.”

Response: ‘And have you forgotten how ****ed Michael Shank was when Juan Pablo Montoya took his car out at Indianapolis last year?”

In other words your support for saying this won’t happen is that it has happened? Hmmm…

I agree with you here—it looks to me that Rolex Race Control is trying to tone down the rampant collisions of Rolex, though sometimes Yacaman happens. Thing is over a 12- or 24-hour race, just a few “Things Happen” could ensure that there were no P2s left. Not likely to be deliberate, but far from absurd. How many major collisions at Detroit? In how short a race?

(By the way, as LagunaSeaca 4Life points out: “... and It wasn't mike shank it was Peter Barron at Indy last year when Juan Pablo montoya took out diazel … yes they have become stricter on the contact because its now the same race director as the alms.”)

Point: “4. There is a LIE that MUST stop! The ALMS DID, in fact, act to KEEP the LMP competition strong for 2007 and 2008. They did NOT "slavishly follow the ACO" on this one!”

Response: “Why did they change it at all? The Audi vs. Porsche battles were epic, the stuff people get really excited about.”

Ummm … the Audi/Porsche battles were epic Because ALMS changed ACO regs, otherwise they wouldn’t have been going head-to-head. And after 2008, both factories left because of A.) the global economic collapse and B.) Porsche wasn’t going to race in P2 if it couldn’t compete with P1.

Also, Porsche ran out of engine castings for its V8. That’s really why the programs factory and privateer, were shut down (Muscle Milk did run the old Dyson car for one more season.) There were no more engine blocks and Porsche, which was undergoing massive restructuring, wasn’t interested in a P2 program any more.

Further, there were some awesome Prototype battles in 2009 between Highcroft/HPD, Muscle Milk, Drayson and Dyson, again because ALMS did Not follow ACO rules, but created a single Prototype class.

That all crashed and burned mostly because of the global economy crashing and burning. Drayson went all-electric, Highcroft and Fernandez couldn’t get major funding and refused to do shoestring operations.

Point: “5. The ALMS couldn't help but lose at least one of the manufacturers come 2009.”

Response: “Simple. Tell Audi to suck it up or get out.”

Well, seeing as how Audi got out, that’s not a real strong “solution.” A “solution” would have kept the teams In the series.

Point: “7. Yes, there is a point at which holding the factories back IS telling them that they are expressly NOT welcome in your series, and they WILL take the hint, and LEAVE you high and dry!”

Response: “Would Audi have bailed out had they not gotten their own way?”

Well, Audi and Porsche really left ALMS for a lot of reasons. But look at Penske’s Porsche foray into Grand Am—The Captain was saddled all season with ridiculous engine rules, and was never competitive until the rules were made fair, at which point his cars promptly won.

Sick of the whole season, Penske never came back. That was a close as a factory Porsche effort as Rolex would ever see, and yes, once told “You can’t win” he said “I won’t race.” If the rules restrict factories—and basically All competitors—so much that there is no benefit in competing …

Point: “… we still know what we like and want, and you don't have the right to tell us what we should or shouldn't enjoy in Sportscar racing.”

Response: “I'm merely saying that the DPs will be there, and nothing any of us can do will change that. Stop being fans because the P1s are gone?”

No one is saying they will stop being fans because P1 is gone. What people are saying is, Rolex doesn’t interest them. The total suppression of any form of competition except driver vs. driver, the rules preventing teams form going faster, the basically spec chassis and tightly controlled motors, the slow, heavy, primitive cars … Those are the things they will not support, because that is not what they like.

As well tell IndyCar fans they should support NASCAR. It just won’t work, because at root, racing is about passion. If a type of racing ignites nothing within you, there is no point in attending. It would be like watching TV and listening to music you didn’t like—not just pointless, but a waste of time.

You go on to say: “How do you expect to get a well-managed series with LMPs and GTEs now, exactly?”

Well, isn’t that where your “optimism” is supposed to kick in? Remember, taking the best from both sides? After all, the management team will get it close to right (your own words.) Are we to judge by this that to you “Right” doesn’t include LPMs at all in the long run? Certainly seems to be what you are saying.

You say [I]“the series can not do just what the ALMS diehards want.”[/I] So, what about the Rolex diehards, like yourself? If the series dumps DPs in 2016 and decides to use a modified version of ACO classes, are you going to stay?

“Nothing any of us who enjoy Grand Am can ever say or do clearly will convince some people, and it will be those people's loss.”

What? Convince people of what? That Grand Am is better? That Grand Am, despite never attracting fans or making money, is Right? Of what is it that you need to convince people?

As for “their loss,” again, What? What is it these “people” have to be convinced of to not be losers? That Rolex racing is Right? Fact is Rolex was as bad off as ALMS, except it had NASCAR subsidies. What ever happened to taking the best from both?

“In the long term, its quite obvious that USCR wants to work with the ACO But they can't let somebody else decide their rulebook, and whatever the 2016 rules are, they have to work on this side of the pond first and foremost, something the ACO, particularly not the FIA is working with them, struggles with.”

Where is that optimism of a “good fan”?

I agree here, that USCR wants to work with ACO/FIA. I have said repeatedly, the 2016 rules should be based on ACO/FIA regs, and ACO/FIA needs to work with USCR to create truly global regs, that work in all the different regions.

So why are you mired in the past, with remarks like, “something the ACO, particularly not the FIA is working with them, struggles with.”

Seems to me you are applying your analysis of the past and projecting into the future, and seeing that this will be a really thorny problem—much as you condemned Purist for doing in Point One.

And finally, something I think every poster on this board agrees with: “I'm hopeful they'll get it right, though, because if they do great things can happen.”

Absolutely. USCR 2016 will either be the start of a new Golden Age of sports car racing, or a severe blow to North American sports car racing. We all hope for the former.

Here’s the thing, though: There is no place for DPs in the post-2016 future.

DPs were designed to be cheap, but actually were no cheaper than P2s. They were designed to be simple, and slow, compared to what other series were racing, but they are no safer, so what is gained? DP are designed and tightly limited by the rules so that no one team can really excel above another (yet still Telemx Ganassi wins almost everything almost all the time.)

DPs were designed to provide close racing, but they don’t even really work in that respect. Break down a couple seasons of each series, and the racing results, in terms of gaps at the finish, are pretty much the same—some really close finishes, some kind of close by the numbers where the order didn’t change because no one could close the gap no matter how small, and the same number of runaways, where one car had several seconds on the field. Particularly if you take out late-race cautions and look at the gaps … DPs do Not provide significantly closer racing.

(as Dodge Swinger notes: “Grand-Am says the DP FORMULA creates close and affordable racing. OK, then step back, stop throwing a bunch of yellows and stop waving cars around to make up for lost laps in order to create an artificial "show". Why penalize teams that have put in the work to prepare the car, drive a clean race, and have a fast and efficient pit crew? If your car is 8 laps down in hour 6 of a 24 hour race, then your team had a bad day and the teams that put in the WORK to be at the front end of the grid and DESERVE to be there get the reward.”)

So what do DPs bring to the table, was a prominent and unanswered question.

We will have DPs in the top class for two years. That’s a fact and everyone needs to deal with it however, but that is a fact.

But beyond 2015? Why would the series consider continuing with slow, heavy cars which are not safer or cheaper, and furthermore, which have a Much smaller fan base?

Are you ready for USCR with no DPs? Are you eagerly looking forward to 2016, when USCR runs the newest ACO P2 class, which was devised in collaboration with USCR?

Here’s my Final Point: The best way to end the pointless debates about all this, would be for everyone to look forward to 2106, when current P2s and DPs are gone, and USCR races the same types of cars the rest of the world does, and it works.

If you want to be the kind of fan you expect everyone else to be, that would be your greatest wish—that USCR was part of a successful global sports car formula, racing exciting, up-to-date cars which teams could develop throughout the season without getting penalized for going faster.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

@HORNDAWG
Are you intentionnally missing the point? I'll make it easier still. Forced change to lower standards is not evolution. Call it communism or whatever.

I missed no point! The point is it is always changing, it just so happens that YOU do not like this one. So it becomes FORCED in your opinion. Comparing a racing series rules/make-up to communism is well beyond the pale.









L.P.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Here’s my Final Point: The best way to end the pointless debates about all this, would be for everyone to look forward to 2106, when current P2s and DPs are gone.......

I suspect they certainly will be.......

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Here’s my Final Point: The best way to end the pointless debates about all this, would be for everyone to look forward to 2106, when current P2s and DPs are gone, and USCR races the same types of cars the rest of the world does, and it works.

Good post overall, and I agree with most. I will say one thing, I'm not waiting around until 2106 to see new cars, I just don't have that kind of patience.

I do want to address 2006-08 era and the failure... Somehow the ALMS managed to not increase TV viewership, or credibility with media during this time. Acura/Audi/Porsche 10 deep grid on any given race... Opportunity to have $3-4 million in title sponsorships turned away... Are you telling me that money couldn't have been used to promote the series further? If you can't run things run under these conditions, how were things going to work out when times got tough? The factories bailed, primarily because in the Audi and Porsche cases, the ROI wasn't growing to justify the expense. DHL was having financial difficulties, and another sponsor couldn't be found due to ROI issues. Acura was looking for someone to race against, and the other two bailed... so Acura did as well.

The North American Audi marketing budget didn't decrease, and they've actually spent more each year after pulling the plug. They just didn't like the returns the ALMS were giving them.

----------

Also want to address the comment about it being my loss, or whomever else chooses to not to watches loss... Hardly the case at all. We all our reasons for liking this sport, and they are incredibly diverse. If something ceases having the characteristics that one finds appealing, it is hardly a loss to us that we cease watching. It is a loss to the organizer for certain... but not us.

[Jonerz]

So Fogelhund, address my question, have you stopped watching the ALMS already?

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

So Fogelhund, address my question, have you stopped watching the ALMS already?

Chris

I haven't completely stopped, but then I am watching fewer and fewer events. I didn't see the Laguna race for example. I quit going to PLM last year. I will miss Mosport this year for the first time in over a decade.

[awegrzyn]

^ To be honest I haven't watched in a long time. I only do Lime Rock at this point.

[Brake dust]

Quote:
OrigiDnally Posted by JoneChris'sSo Fogelhund, address my question, have you stopped watching the ALMS already?

Chris


I have to admit that I have lost interest. My attention now is on WEC and Blancpain. I have no interest in Grand Am except for Daytona - dead of winter and like all of the drivers that race Hope 2016 brings alignment with ACO endurance racing.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I haven't completely stopped, but then I am watching fewer and fewer events. I didn't see the Laguna race for example. I quit going to PLM last year. I will miss Mosport this year for the first time in over a decade.

Originally Posted by Brake dust

I have to admit that I have lost interest. My attention now is on WEC and Blancpain. I have no interest in Grand Am except for Daytona - dead of winter and like all of the drivers that race Hope 2016 brings alignment with ACO endurance racing.

Fair enough, I'm just bugged by the guys who will ignore 2014 while they've remained anoraks in 2013. Like I've said, the merger has reinvigorated my hopes for the sport.

Chris

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Fair enough, I'm just bugged by the guys who will ignore 2014 while they've remained anoraks in 2013. Like I've said, the merger has reinvigorated my hopes for the sport.

Chris

I'll drink to that!

[Dodge_Swinger]

I'm probably going to Road America this year for the combined weekend. I've never been to that track, or Wisconsin for that matter. If nothing else, the brats are supposed to be incredible. Also, it's a chance to compare Grand-Am to ALMS at the same track on the same weekend, in person. If the high point of the weekend is a fantastic brat, it won't be a total waste. It WILL give me enough information to decide my race plans for 2014. USCR really needs to think about that weekend. If they have one-tenth of a clue, USCR needs to put their best foot forward and INFORM and LISTEN TO the fans. I'm not talking about an autograph session or a couple of Frances with Scott Atherton on a leash spouting a bunch of PR nonsense. I would like to hear some concrete proposals about how USCR is going to EARN their fans. I've heard enough about "transition years" and how "fans are the biggest winners". They've created an event that's supposed to draw both fan bases. How about using that event to give us a shred of hope that USCR isn't what many of us think it is: NASCAR turning left and right.

I'm also going to Petit. I've been to every one except 1999. It'll be the last time to see a P1 car outside of WEC, but mainly I'm going to see friends that I only see there and to have a wake for ALMS. It was great while it lasted.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Fair enough, I'm just bugged by the guys who will ignore 2014 while they've remained anoraks in 2013. Like I've said, the merger has reinvigorated my hopes for the sport.

Chris

When I see something concrete, maybe my hopes will be invigorated. I've seen how ALMS management can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and I've seen the product that Grand-Am insists is the greatest form of motor sport since the dawn of internal combustion. Give me some facts, because I've seen how inept ALMS management is and I'm not a fan of NASCAR even if the cars turn left and right.

[Maelochs]

I didn't attend some races which I wanted to because health issues ate all my money, but I did a couple early races(ALMS and Rolex/GA) and plan to do Petit.

I have to admit, my feelings have changed, though---and not my conscious, thought-inflected feelings. I find I am more depressed and less excited about ALMS since it is a lame duck, and more angry at all the shortcomings of Rolex since it seems likely that for two years we will have only those shortcomings to look forward to.

Still going to Sebring ... and maybe the 2014 Rolex 24 ... and maybe I will save my cash for WEC at CotA and some historic races.

[gregtummer]

Another Jim France series:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/557/39...ts-Group-.aspx

The comments are telling.

[Dodge_Swinger]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Another Jim France series:

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/557/39...ts-Group-.aspx

The comments are telling.

Truth!

Well, that doesn't give me a whole lot of optimism. "Dumbed down bikes." "WWE fistfights." (And some idiot saying that fist fights in the pits worked wonders for NASCAR's TV ratings.) "Rolling starts." I loved this description of the "safety car": the KILL Car.

It's exactly what I fear. NASCAR seems to think that if it works in NASCAR, it works in any other series. The fans, at least the ones that commented on the above story, believe that NASCAR management doesn't get it, because they're not motorcycle guys. Of course, the apologists (both of them) said that "these guys are really passionate about moto, just give them a chance." And the interest keeps dropping.

Well, I guess we can look forward to USCR being the all out success that AMA bike racing is. It is VERY telling that all they seem to care about is TV ratings, yet AMA bike races are rarely on TV. Anything outside of TV ratings seem to be a big mystery............

Boogity boogity.........

[Maelochs]

Important point: That article was from 2009, when DMG (NASCAR) hasd just bought and started to kill AMA road racing. Roger Edmondson, who did a lot to hurt Rolex, was put in charge of hurting AMA., and he did a first-rate job.

Mr. Edmondson has since passed on, and while I haven;'t heard anything good about AMA racing, I haven't heard the kind of horror stories which were frequent in the first couple years---riders penalized for breathing on the start line or frowning when penalized, real Iron Fist in a Spiked Iron Glove plus Iron Brain sort of idiocy.

But basically ... dumb, simple bikes that somehow aren't any cheaper but are slower, and a total disregard for fans, riders, teams, factories ...

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Important point: That article was from 2009, when DMG (NASCAR) hasd just bought and started to kill AMA road racing. Roger Edmondson, who did a lot to hurt Rolex, was put in charge of hurting AMA., and he did a first-rate job.

Mr. Edmondson has since passed on, and while I haven;'t heard anything good about AMA racing, I haven't heard the kind of horror stories which were frequent in the first couple years---riders penalized for breathing on the start line or frowning when penalized, real Iron Fist in a Spiked Iron Glove plus Iron Brain sort of idiocy.

But basically ... dumb, simple bikes that somehow aren't any cheaper but are slower, and a total disregard for fans, riders, teams, factories ...

Indeed, but they still haven't done much to improve AMA from a competition or marketing standpoint, of course it doesn't require the cubic dollars and eyeballs sports car racing requires.

But then again, "NASCAR" did fine controlling IMSA from 1969-1989(? Or whenever they sold it.), Grand-Am continues to move closer to the tastes of the traditional sports car fan and I think generally there are a lot of people in the organization who know what they are doing. The ALMS did have a great opportunity to make some strides in '06 to '08 but measurable viewership and fandem didn't increase to a level that made the series viable for the cost of entry for manufacturers and teams. I just hope the new series is marketed and sold well and put right under the nose of Joe Public so that teams and manufacturers can afford to continue to provide an interesting product.

Chris

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Grand-Am continues to move closer to the tastes of the traditional sports car fan and I think generally there are a lot of people in the organization who know what they are doing

Guess I'm not a traditional sports car fan by your ruling then.
And if these people indeed know what they are doing (which I highly doubt for both source series for USCR), then they are doing what they wanna do already with Rolex and see where it brought it. Had to buy some substance.

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I just hope the new series is marketed and sold well and put right under the nose of Joe Public so that teams and manufacturers can afford to continue to provide an interesting product.

I just hope the new series is gonna have awesome cars, teams, and a real competition instead of GA/WWE-style rubbin

OK you have the more realistic goal.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

FWIW, I have been in love with the ALMS since I first attended Petit in 2008 (wish I had known about it sooner). My personal swan song to the ALMS will be attending 7 of the 10 races this year (missing Long Beach, Lime Rock and Road America). I will most likely go to Sebring in 2014 just because it will still be a good time spent with friends and a good welcome to the Spring after a long Winter. I'll probably also go to Petit, but I imagine that will be all. I'll go to Le Mans and Austin because that's where the real racing will be.
USCR lost me when they denied any hopes of seeing P1 in their series. Slamming the door on any hopes to see the best that your sport has to offer is a completely ridiculous move as far as I'm concerned. It's just the continued dumbing down of our society, Wal Mart, Net Flix highly compressed digital downloads (as opposed to a pristine blu ray), MP3, cheap Ikea furniture, USCR they are all the same.
Lastly, as juvenile as it sounds I think my answer to making my own voice heard will be to make some personalized T-shirts to wear to Sebring next year. Things along the lines of DP Sucks, DPs are only good in porn, and the classic Calvin peeing on a DP. I'm up for other suggestions.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

But then again, "NASCAR" did fine controlling IMSA from 1969-1989(? Or whenever they sold it.),

France was an investor with John Bishop, but did not have active participation in the control of IMSA.