Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan

[Dutton]

Well, we could get a clear and precise conclusion that most certainly does not mean a terrific end to the year.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Gaz

I've been wondering what the odds are on a 2 race ban for McLaren to give Ferrari enough chance to catch up before the deciding rounds

Nice thought,but way too obvious.

Maybe better to deduct points and race on.......oh wait though,way too obvious!

Why not kick them both out just for bringing the sport into disrepute and for being annoying and causing us to have this thread going on for longer than I really care to remember.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Well, we could get a clear and precise conclusion that most certainly does not mean a terrific end to the year.

Yes, but I don't hope for that.

[pottiella]

Dutton...always the voice of optimism

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

What exactly is it that you're hoping for.

Because,on this forum,you have a great many Ferrari fans and a great many McLaren fans,there are Kimi and Lewis fans,Fernando and Felipe fans.There are also people who believe that the FIA are doing a good job and others that can't understand why the governing body would want to undermine its 'Jewel in the crown'.It's certainly going to be tough to please everyone.

Martyn that's the most politically correct post I read from you so far.

Are you running for... oh forget it.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Why not kick them both out just for bringing the sport into disrepute and for being annoying and causing us to have this thread going on for longer than I really care to remember.

Well, you know, why not?

Let us suppose Mclaren end up being held responsible for, and punished for, the actions of a team-member/team-members. Surely, then, Ferrari would have to be held responsible for the actions of their employee(s)?

Given the Mclaren punishment would be over bringing the sport into disrepute, as opposed to anything specifically related to gaining via the designs, well, surely both Ferrari and Mclaren could be construed as being guilty of the same crime?

Perhaps Mclaren will put this view across, which will lead to no-one getting punished for anything. Either that, or we may end up with BMW as champions.

Ah, I love speculating.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Martyn that's the most politically correct post I read from you so far.

I've just re-read it and it's too late to do anything about it now.

[Knowlesy]

I'd look great because Heidfeld was my outside title bet.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I'd look great because Heidfeld was my outside title bet.

I bet you're behind this whole thing aren't you.

[pottiella]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I bet you're behind this whole thing aren't you.

[Inigo Montoya]

So I guess the upshot of all this is that more than just a couple of people in the inner workings of McLaren knew about this document. This gets sadder and sadder.

I have to believe that Ron Dennis surely did not know about this, though I am not sure what that says about his role on the team.

[Dutton]

Given lots of F1 teams have done this kind of thing through the decades, well, I do not find it remotely surprising that various people in the team have seen it. I did not for one second believe the theory that no-one else had seen it, or that Mclaren never so much as thought about the contents.

This is F1: no team would do anything other than look at such information if it became available (this includes Ferrari if they received Mclaren data, for instance).

Why do you have to believe that Ron did not know about it? Is he a Saint, or something? I guess he might not have known, but it seems somewhat unlikely, IMO.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Why do you have to believe that Ron did not know about it? Is he a Saint, or something?

Its a good question Dutton... I suppose I just respect the guy too much to think he could out and out lie about something like that. Yeah, I know the cynical will say that F1 is a business, but I think Ron was one of the few left who values integrity.

[Dutton]

Well, he is not going to come out and admit it if he did know is he?

F1 has never operated on integrity, IMO. Cheating has been rife throughout its history: we just somehow view the cheating in a weird rose-tinted way when it happened in the more distant past.

All I can say is my thoughts on Mclaren haven't changed following this situation, just like they didn't over Honda with their stuff (for example): I guess, though, I have always had an implicit belief that all F1 teams should not be trusted.

They bend-the-rules/cheat all the time. It is just a matter of whether or not they get in trouble for it.

[pottiella]

you know it's very easy to put things into black and white - that either others knew/saw it or nobody did. The latter is looking increasingly unlikely, and would have been anyway. But for the emerging scenario that key figures did get told, for me personally it is difficult just to condemn them for knowing. Certainly the likes of Neale and Lowe, both thought to have been told by coughlan only to express that they didn't want to know, is very plausable to me.

The bottom line is that if someone tells you something, that's it; it has been told, and you've heard it whether you want to have of not - and all of a sudden you're involved without realising how. I suspect a good handful of key names and faces were told, but under these circumstances where the have immediately wanted to distance themselves from knowing any more, and I'm very much inclined to believe that should these drivers be in the know, that it wasn't by choice, and they would rather not have known. It seems likely any conversation between Fernando and Pedro on the matter (if this rumour is true at all) would be more about sharing a burden and discussing how to handle it than anything incriminating on themselves.

Of course, I don't know any of them to know for sure; but its how I would see it realistically unfolding in practice. For all McLaren's sins of concealment, the way I see it there is only one person who is at fault, to blame, or deserves condemnation in those quarters - if anyone at all, and if the very strongly supported allegations were true - and that is Mike Coughlan.

But yes, McLaren shouldn't have swept it under the carpet...provided Ron knew...and if he didn't, then like someone else said, it says alot about his position as Boss. Regardless, there are 3 morals to this story:

1. Ignorance is bliss
2. Hindsight is a wonderful thing...on how things SHOULD have been handled
and
3. don't discuss sensitive issues by email or anything that could be recorded!!

[Dutton]

The problem Mclaren face, and the one the FIA will, IMO, be addressing, is why, if they are so super innocent, wasn't the FIA instantly informed of the transgression and handed all the information the team received?

If Mclaren had nothing but sweet and honest intentions and actions in mind, then why do things that would appear to show the opposite?

[pottiella]

yes well that's my point; they should have been more transparent, and not do the old british corporate thing by sweeping it under the carpet then glossing it over with a speech about integrity. Now that they didn't (and this is where the ambiguity comes in as we really can't tell how much Ron actually knew to be able to allow this) be more forthcoming, it makes them look increasingly guilty in some form. But just because something is handled wrong, and as a result it LOOKS bad, doesn't mean to say it is what it looks like, and warrants a guilty judgement.

They are at fault certainly for the way they handled it, but I just can't give them fault for the actual allegations just because of it. Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't...I guess we'll find out more soon, though I fear never the full truth. But it's just the fine line in guilt that I'm trying to put across...

[Dutton]

Well, yes, none of us know what went on. All we are doing is speculating (I have taken that to be a truism).

All things considered, in the grand scheme of probabilities, I have to say I think it is more likely Mclaren will have used the information than not. I don't think this makes them any different to any other F1 team, Ferrari included, but, nonetheless, it is not a good place for Mclaren to be atm.

[Marbot]

With regard to the e-mails.I remember 'Flav' getting all hot under the collar about how quickly McLaren had managed to get the Bridgestones to work on their car.Maybe he has a point there,because everyone else that was on the Michelins has tended to struggle somewhat this season.And certainly there has been none of the expected Ferrari advantage that most were sure would happen for at least the first few races.

[TWRv12]

Hamilton, Alonso and the test driver Pedro de la Rosa were "invited" by the FIA to offer up any technical information which might have been relevant to the performance of the team's MP4-22

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorspo...164157,00.html

FiveLive F1 - ( @2.5hrs in)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainf...ive/formulaone

[Oldtony]

If I may introduce another "red herring", does this start to explain why the Prodrive contract has not surfaced.
If McMerc suspected that something could come up that banned them from 2008 it would be useful to have a fall back position where the intelectual and physical assets could be spirited across to another entity for the 2008 season.
If you hear of a Mr Walkinshaw being called back from Australia as a consultant you will know what is happening.
Then maybe we don't want to go there.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

If I may introduce another "red herring", does this start to explain why the Prodrive contract has not surfaced.
...
If you hear of a Mr Walkinshaw being called back from Australia as a consultant you will know what is happening.
Then maybe we don't want to go there.

Why is there no *Opening a new can of worms* Icon when you need one?
Subtle stuff Oldtony!

[davyboy]

Apparently De la Rosa and Alonso had e-mail conversations relating to the Ferrari set-up secrets obtained from Coughlan. If this is proven, McLaren are toast.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62097

[Gt_R]

IF this is true, i think the least Ron Dennis will be concerned is how the council will issue the punishments.

It will effectively tarnish the weight of Ron's words, who in the past few months insisted that Mike works as an individual and nobody else is involved. In short, i worry that many (eg press, extreme fans) will start to portray Ron as a liar and Mclarens as cheaters. This will be a heavy hit than any monetary fines can cause.

I mean, yeah... i wish truth prevails and a right judgement to come out of it... but i do feel abit sorry for Ron and Mclaren for everything THIS season...

It is supposed to be their "back to glory" year... but set to go down as one of the company's worst nightmare in decades.

[davec]

My reading of the autosport report is

On friday FIA tell drivers that if there is any evidence from them they will be spared sanctions

FA and PDLR give FIA email evidence therefore cannot be punished

is it possible that the emails didnt exist and are just a way of fernando looking for a way out of punnishment (Possible ban 2007 2008? for everyone in the team)