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6 Sep 2020, 12:08 (Ref:4000397) | #1601 | |
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6 Sep 2020, 12:19 (Ref:4000399) | #1602 | |
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I expect drivers in modern open cockpit cars are impacted by a few key factors when it comes to heat. One is that they wear head to toe coverings. Some being multiple layers. So it is hard to reject heat via perspiration. Another is thermal radiation. They basically bake in the sun. It could be argued that a covered cockpit with a sun shade would help. And its obviously clear that adequate ventilation can be achieved via properly designed ventilation. As others point out, that has existed for decades. Now that only works when the car is at speed. If you want a solution for all situations then that is an active A/C system as is used in top level closed cockpit sports and prototype racing.
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6 Sep 2020, 18:43 (Ref:4000580) | #1603 | |||
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7 Sep 2020, 12:03 (Ref:4000747) | #1604 | ||
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7 Sep 2020, 12:12 (Ref:4000748) | #1605 | ||
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Cockpit temperatures have never been an issue since this rule was introduced and I don't recall a car ever having an issue with it during the race. The temperatures are measured live. We have "test pilots" for this. They've been doing it for years. |
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7 Sep 2020, 14:00 (Ref:4000760) | #1606 | ||
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At the first race, of the double-header at the IMS road course, it was 90° F, 32.22° C, outside and at least 120° F, 48.88° C, inside the cockpit.
The other issue they have been having regarding cockpit temperature, is with the drinks system. The 1.5-liter bag is usually located above a radiator inlet and cooling duct. When the driver takes a drink, the liquid enters the tube in the cockpit. However, in the time between drinks the liquid can heat up, to over the 100° F mark, 37.77° C. |
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7 Sep 2020, 21:36 (Ref:4000841) | #1607 | ||
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Richard |
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8 Sep 2020, 08:12 (Ref:4000878) | #1608 | ||
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8 Sep 2020, 08:49 (Ref:4000884) | #1609 | |
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Why should it fit a current F1 car? Why not change the F1 car to fit the A/C? Nothing ever changes with that backwards way of thinking.
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8 Sep 2020, 10:10 (Ref:4000897) | #1610 | |
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I doubt the teams would want the extra weight of an Air con. At the end of the day the drivers manage fine without it. Let's just keep it how it is
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8 Sep 2020, 10:28 (Ref:4000902) | #1611 | ||
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This is exactly right, the design of the whole car would have to change in order to accommodate a full canopy...a bulkier and probably wider tub/safety cell. This in turn allows more space in the cockpit for A/C systems.
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8 Sep 2020, 10:58 (Ref:4000904) | #1612 | |
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In the end a canopy system could work. It would have to be part of an overall new tech spec and the entire solution designed to be part of the car and not tacked on. And yes it would weigh more. I have no idea what the canopy solution would add. I have read the A/C units are 25kg or less (including one that is 11kg, but I am unsure if that is the entire system or just the cockpit components, but that might be a total solution)
While a closed cockpit would bring extra safety (and unique challenges) i am more and more impressed with something like the Indy Aeroscreen solution. I expect it solves the key issues, but via a less complex solution. I don't expect F1 to switch anytime soon. I believe the next iteration of F1 tech regulations are expected to run through 2025 at a minimum. I expect the next iteration of the Indycar chassis well include an integrated (designed in from the start). I have no clue how long Indycar plans to run their current chassis. F1 may switch depending upon how well received a future Indycar iteration is received. Richard |
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8 Sep 2020, 11:12 (Ref:4000906) | #1613 | |||
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If the cockpits were closed, which the thread title discusses as a potential reality, it might be a different story. I guess another factor to look at is whether the increased temperature comes from solar radiation alone, or through the lack of convection for ambient temperatures. If the former, then solving the problem may originate in tackling the solar aspect. If the latter, a/c may be a necessity. |
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8 Sep 2020, 12:30 (Ref:4000917) | #1614 | |
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While the thread title is "closed cockpit", I will say this thread has generally been the home for discussion on improved cockpit safety regardless of closed, open or some other variant (i.e. halo). If you watch the video of FIA tests in the very first post, it shows them testing both a closed canopy and an open top shield style. So I see no reason to expect restriction of topic to just "closed cockpit" (not directed at crmalcom, but a few recent posts imply "closed cockpit" only discussion).
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8 Sep 2020, 13:45 (Ref:4000928) | #1615 | |||
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https://racer.com/2020/07/17/first-r...cooling-scoop/ |
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8 Sep 2020, 14:26 (Ref:4000932) | #1616 | ||
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So when you are fighting for tenths or hundredths in a top level series and your cockpit is enclosed (or nearly so), the engineers are going to focus on speed vs. comfort. I think the right thing to do was done and that was the rule makers defined expectations around maximum temp in the cockpits. Indycar is in a unique position in which they can mandate all teams to use a single device to ensure airflow into the cockpit. The more you close it off, the more the air will be stagnant. So instead of saying "cockpit temps must not be above X", Indycar can just put in place a standard solution (assuming that solution gets the desired results). In a series such as F1, they would likely need to define rules similar to what was done in sportcar/prototype racing. Even if not fully closed, they would have to find some type of specification that defines airflow through the cockpit. It could be easily done. Probably a minimum volume of ambient air (not heated ambient) that moves from the foot position and out through the open top. At speed this could be done without any extra energy. When stopped, maybe a fan? It's all speculation as its not yet a problem in F1. Or is it? F1 cockpits are pretty open, but you can see that teams will try to adjust the flow to prevent or at least control any turbulent flow. The clear plastic vortex generators are easily visible on the leading edges of the current F1 cockpits. My point is that even now, I expect F1 cockpits are somewhat stagnant (not as stagnant as with an aero screen solution). It would be interesting to know the temperature differential in the air from the toes to the head of a F1 drivers. Richard |
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8 Sep 2020, 16:08 (Ref:4000955) | #1617 | |||
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8 Sep 2020, 16:56 (Ref:4000966) | #1618 | ||
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I "think" the sports car solution didn't exactly mandate A/C. (Again, I could be wrong). I think they set limits on the temperature the driver will experience. With the solution potentially being A/C, but not required? I think they also increased the min-weight to help (which I know is a trigger for many here and I understand the angst of the ever growing dimensions (weight and size) of the cars.) Richard |
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8 Sep 2020, 18:08 (Ref:4000977) | #1619 | |||
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8 Sep 2020, 18:34 (Ref:4000978) | #1620 | |||
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There are lots of ways around the majority of issues that people bring into the closed cockpit argument. If the engineers were allowed to investigate fully. |
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8 Sep 2020, 18:49 (Ref:4000989) | #1621 | |
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Question is, do we really need to go too much further? A bit of cooling could help, if it’s mandated by the FIA. At the moment, there’s no need for it, so we’ll just have to wait. Have to say the halo does it’s job, even if it took some getting used to
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8 Sep 2020, 19:07 (Ref:4000996) | #1622 | |||
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If it's job is to prevent all objects then there is still a lot of open space for carbon fibre, gravel stones, smaller mechanical bits, etc to get through. So in that context it's not fully doing it's job. |
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8 Sep 2020, 19:21 (Ref:4001002) | #1623 | ||
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I said 'clearly not'... there's no way it could be. Is there? Nobody would have that level of hubris, surely? |
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8 Sep 2020, 20:26 (Ref:4001025) | #1624 | |||
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Had it been a front wind assembly or a selection of bargeboard components would the Halo have been considered good enough? Hence my observation that it does offer protection against large debris, but not smaller stuff. |
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16 Sep 2020, 11:37 (Ref:4002767) | #1625 | |
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Not sure if it's been mentioned before, but just to chip in with some numbers from NASCAR it's not uncommon to see temps upwards 130-140° F/50-60° C inside the cars during hot days.
In some more extreme cases they've even seen temps around 160° F/71° C, which is effin' crazy. |
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