Audi LMP1 Discussion

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Is it like the Hostility setup Audi have before the Pit Entry? That is HUGE...
This looks more like a small audi dealership, to me.

The AMR hospitality unit is just a masterpiece. 2 transporters, and a curved glass roof, and suddenly it's a Potted Palm Paradise!

I believe this is a hospitality building and its purposely built to look like the newer style dealerships

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Is it like the Hostility setup Audi have before the Pit Entry? That is HUGE...

"Hostility" as in if you walk in with a Peugeot hat you get shot?

[TF110]

He forgot the 'P', but Audi might not like that letter seeing as how their main rival's name starts with a 'P'.

[chernaudi]

R18 rear assembly photos are up at Mulsanne's corner.

Mike does bring up the fact that Pruett's theory about some type of "quick-change" gearbox does exist, as it seems that the R18's rear carbon subframe which the suspension attatches to by the letter of the ACO's rules is the gearbox, and not the actual gearbox casing.

However, Mike also says that this may be an extreme solution to a problem that may never happen, though he did say that Peugeot could complain about it if Audi ever used it in a race--as with the R15's front aero, Peugeot will probably whine because they didn't think of it first. However, Mike also has said that the quick change gearbox might not the the number one objective of the approach that Audi have used on the R18, and that lightness is the main goal.

[cdsvg]

Looking at the new images of the R18 sans engine cover, what is the purpose of the two symmetrical foil-covered tubes running back from the monocoque? They seem to lead somewhere towards the bellhousing. Clearly not engine induction, that can be seen in the center of the car emerging from inside the front of the fin.

[tux]

Maybe they extend to the coolers for gearbox/hydraulics/diff oil.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by cdsavage

Looking at the new images of the R18 sans engine cover, what is the purpose of the two symmetrical foil-covered tubes running back from the monocoque? They seem to lead somewhere towards the bellhousing. Clearly not engine induction, that can be seen in the center of the car emerging from inside the front of the fin.

Man I don't know. Been looking at those shots and scratching my head. For starters, where's the hell is source of the airflow as they originate from the cockpit? They then plumb into the bellhousing. They are clearly cooling something. Note the small branch that comes off the left hand duct near where it comes out of the monocoque and feeds something ahead of the turbo, there's also a branch that comes out near where it goes into the bellhousing. That feeds a square object on the side of the bellhousing. Can't tell what the object is as it's inside a carbon housing, though it's about 8" x 12" if not larger. I hate to be the start of a rumor, but what would a hybrid installation look like? Could that effect gearbox reliability? Audi has a history of race proving technology before our eyes and only telling us after the fact...

[Victor_RO]

Are competitors allowed to tell the ACO to keep a hybrid test secret in that case? Because they have to have kept it under VERY tight wraps to race the car as a hybrid, and having to pass the 400m-60kph test under ACO supervision doesn't help the level of secrecy.

[chernaudi]

What teams do in private testing isn't exactly the business of the ACO unless they're testing something that they want to homologate later.

Of course, there are various theories that Audi may run some type of heat energy recovery system for next near on the R18 instead of a simple KERS unit as heat recovery is a lot more efficient than KERS, and is lighter for the energy it recovers. Such a system would have to be approved for use in race conditions by the ACO, however, and Audi have been insistant that 2011 isn't their year for a hybrid, as even Peugeot, who have a considerable head start over the entire field in that area (2008), struggled so much with the 908 HY in its single test that it was ditched until after LM for testing to resume then.

The pipes could be for the AC unit, or something else entirely, as we don't know where they start or end, namely, do they originante in the cockpit/tub, or from where ever the "rear" end connects to.

I doubt that its for a hybrid system that's in current operation, as that would have to be homolgated, and as has been suggested, at the LM test day, teams had to perform a public test to prove the effectiveness of their systems.

But then again, Audi and Peugeot are big manufacturers, and the ACO has tended to bend over backwards for the factory money and have tended to let them get away with a lot more than the smaller teams have been over the years.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

What teams do in private testing isn't exactly the business of the ACO unless they're testing something that they want to homologate later.

Of course, there are various theories that Audi may run some type of heat energy recovery system for next near on the R18 instead of a simple KERS unit as heat recovery is a lot more efficient than KERS, and is lighter for the energy it recovers. Such a system would have to be approved for use in race conditions by the ACO, however, and Audi have been insistant that 2011 isn't their year for a hybrid, as even Peugeot, who have a considerable head start over the entire field in that area (2008), struggled so much with the 908 HY in its single test that it was ditched until after LM for testing to resume then.

The pipes could be for the AC unit, or something else entirely, as we don't know where they start or end, namely, do they originante in the cockpit/tub, or from where ever the "rear" end connects to.

R18 doesn't run any AC and it's pretty clear the ducts originate in the cockpit and plumb rearwards given the off branches that cool items along the way.

[Tim the Grey]

Surely the firewall is breached by these things? So they cannot open into anywhere the driver sits???

I had wondered if there WAS A/C, then it's COLD, not cool, air feed to wherever...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

R18 doesn't run any AC and it's pretty clear the ducts originate in the cockpit and plumb rearwards given the off branches that cool items along the way.

Hasn't there been speak of the R18 running AC at some tests, so they could add it if Le Mans turned out too hot?

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

R18 doesn't run any AC and it's pretty clear the ducts originate in the cockpit and plumb rearwards given the off branches that cool items along the way.

The R18 has a provision for an AC system (Audi press photos reveal controls for an AC unit on the dashboard, albeit on the opposite side of the dashboard from the driver, which shows that they're a low priority control whether or not the AC is fitted or functional). Also, some photos from the LM test does show some pipes entering the cockpit from near the rear bulkhead (there are photos on E-I for sure that show one of these pipes), but I don't know if they're in anyway connected to the pipes in the rear of the car.

there are slots just in front of and integrated into the engine air intake for some type of ducting/venting, but it would seem that it's likely for the cockpit, but not whatever the pipes in the engine bay are.

We'll likely need a good interior shot to determine what those pipes go to in the car, as Audi at the Sebring test didn't want photographers to take detailed shots into the cockpit, espeically without a driver in the seat.

Audi are obviously hiding something, and it may have to do with cockpit venting, or a provision for something they'd want to try for the future, like the heat energy recovery system that was rumored.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The R18 has a provision for an AC system (Audi press photos reveal controls for an AC unit on the dashboard, albeit on the opposite side of the dashboard from the driver, which shows that they're a low priority control whether or not the AC is fitted or functional). Also, some photos from the LM test does show some pipes entering the cockpit from near the rear bulkhead (there are photos on E-I for sure that show one of these pipes), but I don't know if they're in anyway connected to the pipes in the rear of the car.

there are slots just in front of and integrated into the engine air intake for some type of ducting/venting, but it would seem that it's likely for the cockpit, but not whatever the pipes in the engine bay are.

We'll likely need a good interior shot to determine what those pipes go to in the car, as Audi at the Sebring test didn't want photographers to take detailed shots into the cockpit, espeically without a driver in the seat.

Audi are obviously hiding something, and it may have to do with cockpit venting, or a provision for something they'd want to try for the future, like the heat energy recovery system that was rumored.

Nothing to do with cockpit cooling and all to do with cooling the carbon bellhousing. Sam's straightened me out; hybrid would need prominent stickers on it to warn crews/marshals.

[chernaudi]

And if Audi does have a way to get the gearbox out of the car for easy maintainance, it does beg a question: How?!

With the metal "stitches" seemingly firmly in place, there's not a lot of room for an easy gearbox removal unless the stitches are removable themselves.

This goes back seemingly to Mike's main point--that the Audi solution allows for lightweight without sacrificing strength, though Sam might be able to show a guess as to how such a thing would occur, but after I've had a few looks at the Audi gearbox assembly, I doubt that Audi have placed much stock in a quick change gearbox. A lightweight, simple gearbox casing it may be, but it may be only of academic value due to a gearbox failure being unlikely given history of not only Audi, but much of the field (most issues have recently been with the electronics in the gear change systems), and that it seems that the Audi solution my not be so "quick change" after all, though I do think that Mike and Sam know more than we do about this.

And it seems that those pipes, where ever they're sourced are used to cool the whole engine bay in addition to the bellhousing assembly (at least one looks like it goes to the turbocharger assembly, and other vent off into the engine bay above the bellhousing/gearbox assembly).

[MihokS5]

I'm really curious to see pics from scrutineering. I wonder if Audi will be running the new style front fenders and rear engine cover that we saw them testing at Monza...

[chernaudi]

Probably not--at Mike's site, it's been suggested that they're sprint race/high downforce bodywork.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Probably not--at Mike's site, it's been suggested that they're sprint race/high downforce bodywork.

why would they test that before Le Mans? Do you think Imola is a priority now?

I have not yet compared my shots from scrutineering with those from Spa, so I can't tell you if there are any technical and visible differences. The liveries are what they were at the Le Mans Test Day, when Dr. Ulrich assured me that those were the definitive ones.

[chernaudi]

Yes, because Audi have said that at both Sebring tests that the cars were in LM aero trim.

However, I do think that it's gotten to be sort of ridicuous that Audi and Peugeot have different bodywork for LM and similar tracks and a different set for about 90% of the other circuits of the world, but I guess that's what regulation changes have brought on--Peugeot even ran a new front end for the 908 at LM in '09 and '10 that rarely appeared elsewhere.

In the day of the Audi R8 and cars of that era, all you did to convert a car from LM spec to sprint spec is tack on some gurneys and diveplanes, open up the front fender louvers, and crank some more rear wing in the car.

With the R18 and the 908, almost every body panel front and rear on the car is at least slightly different between LM and sprint spec. This all started with the old 908 with it's blanked off nose, the R15 with it's revised bodywork, and the ARX-02, which had a low drag LM package that was never raced.

And these seem like minor changes, but Audi and Peugeot have had to invest in tooling and new molds to make the different body panels, which is one thing that the older, more powerful LMP 900 cars never usually did--and mind you, they're not making much more power than the current cars are.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Yes, because Audi have said that at both Sebring tests that the cars were in LM aero trim.

"deleted a few lines"

And these seem like minor changes, but Audi and Peugeot have had to invest in tooling and new molds to make the different body panels, which is one thing that the older, more powerful LMP 900 cars never usually did--and mind you, they're not making much more power than the current cars are.

I don't see how your explanation (?) answers my question.

And talking about what older cars can do, you must remember the lap times both the Audis and Pugs recently set at Spa. Last weekend on a sunny afternoon, Bob Berridge ran his Sauber C11 round that track in 2.05. (on control tyres).

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by henk4

And talking about what older cars can do, you must remember the lap times both the Audis and Pugs recently set at Spa. Last weekend on a sunny afternoon, Bob Berridge ran his Sauber C11 round that track in 2.05. (on control tyres).

I don't think that really says anything about the current cars, more about how poweful the old C11 still is in historic racing trim, and what a madman Berridge still is behind the wheel. Didn't he set a 3:42 during the Group C race at Le Mans last year in-between punctures?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

I don't think that really says anything about the current cars, more about how poweful the old C11 still is in historic racing trim, and what a madman Berridge still is behind the wheel. Didn't he set a 3:42 during the Group C race at Le Mans last year in-between punctures?

I am very much aware that circumstances have changed, but I am getting tired of references to the past, so I was giving an extreme but very recent example. (and Christian Gläsel in his C11 was not much slower than Berridge b.t.w.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by henk4

I am very much aware that circumstances have changed, but I am getting tired of references to the past, so I was giving an extreme but very recent example. (and Christian Gläsel in his C11 was not much slower than Berridge b.t.w.

The C11 is a beast of a machine anyway.

[gwyllion]

FYI Audi is ready for the race of the year

[chernaudi]

There are only a few tracks in the world that would require an LM-spec bodywork for these cars:

Le Mans (obviously)
Paul Ricard (LMS only)
Monza (not on the schedule)
Fuji (non on schedule)
And maybe Road America (ALMS only, and that's pushing it as far as aero requirments at RA is more of a downforce track than the other options).

These tracks are in the minority, as over 90% of the world's circuits need much more downforce. I don't think that Peugeot ran their Sebring bodywork with the intent of running it once and putting it into storage.

The LMP 900 cars ran with 600-700bhp from 1999-2002, and 550-600 from '03-'05 ('06, and in once case '07 if you count the ALMS). The current cars are making 550-600+hp. So why design different bodywork instead of designing something that only will require minor changes?

And that also backs up my argument that the post LM ILMC events are starting to take priority, as outside of LM, can any of us name a track that would require an LM aero package on the current list of events? Sebring didn't, Peugeot proved that Spa didn't, Imola doesn't for sure, Silverstone, PLM, and Zhuhai don't require LM aero.

At LM now, teams basically have got what they got, and it'll be so until the end of the ILMC season as LM will likely take precident again in the off season unless the WEC rebranding starts to place more emphasis on the sprint races/championship with the drivers' title now up for grabs next year and keep the likes of Audi and Peugeot sacrficing the likes of Sebring and Spa as glorified test sessions.

And for the Sauber, there's a lot of difference between cars that have 600bhp and can make up to a 1000 in short burst without fuel restrictions. But the current cars are showing that power isn't everything in many circumstances. In testing, Audi and Peugeot have been as fast as their older cars have been at most tracks, but the straightline speeds do indicate that they're not too far off the power of the older cars. Even NASCAR Sprint Cup vs Nationwide cars, the epitomoy of low tech professional cars, can lap within about a half of a second of each other at most tracks in spite of the NW cars having about 100 less horspower and slightly less downforce/more drag.

I just find it a bit oxymoronic that the ACO are "trying" to save the teams money with the current rules package, yet Audi and Peugeot and even private LMP1 teams have spent more money on speicalized sprint and LM bodywork than ever seemingly, but if those teams have they money for such things, they're gonna spend it.