Ferrari dismiss Stepney/McLaren suspend Coughlan

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

What what I said a couple of pages ago.

So you did.

It would be nice to see the Sauber name at the top of the list though wouldn't it.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there.

There's talk of Ron opening some sort of 'Pandora's box'.I can see Heidfeld running away with this championship.

No I am sincere martyn..I feel that would be more than unfair if the drivers points were affected in any way..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

No I am sincere martyn..I feel that would be more than unfair if the drivers points were affected in any way..

Even if it is found that Alonso used setup information from Ferrari to improve 'his' cars use of the Bridgestone tyres?

Note emphasis on 'his'.

[JeremySmith]

I just do not buy into a lot of this to be honest with you martyn... I keep coming back to this point I know, but look at the McLaren F1 organisation, let us go with what we do know about them, many years at this sport, a great deal of hard craft, leadership that is second to none in F1, do they need to use "back-room" schoolboy almost type "tactics" to win a championship?

Does Alonso need to use a "Ferrari set up" for his tyres to win races or a championship? I do not believe he does. I may be proven completely wrong about this, after all I am just guessing like the rest of us. We may never know the real truth..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Does Alonso need to use a "Ferrari set up" for his tyres to win races or a championship? I do not believe he does. I may be proven completely wrong about this, after all I am just guessing like the rest of us. We may never know the real truth..

Used it or not,if he has access to it or if any of McLarens drivers have had access to it,then that is all that matters as far as Ferrari are concerned.

And yes,we may never know the real truth.Trying to get at it is causing enough damage as it is.

[JeremySmith]

We just don't know do we? shame to let it ruin our enjoyment..

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Are you actually comparing Ron's running of McLaren to a disaster that caused the loss of thousands of lives? And do you actually expect people to take your post seriously after doing so?

It is clear why people think Ferrari are not doing the sport any favours; they are banging on about it all the time, sticking the ore in and not just letting the FIA get on with it. (In this post) I'm not saying that they shouldn't be doing what they are doing, just that your first question seems odd, as it is clear that others have said why they believe Ferrari are being detrimental to the sport! Others aren't referring to just the pursuing of Stepney.

Of course I am not comparing it as a one-for-one deal Adam. However, I am saying that Ron can't keep walking around acting as if he lives in some sort of glass bubble untouched by the situation when the preponderance of evidence shows that people inside his organization did see the info. You can't, as head of an organization, keep saying that you are not responsible for the actions of the individuals of that organization. Despite that, he goes on about how no one did; how integrity is important, etc., and emphasized at McLaren, but of course he can't control anyone or know what they are doing. As head man, he is either responsible for what goes on there or he is not.

What is becoming ridiculous here (to me) is the on-going demonizing of Ferrari, as if McLaren's "shyte" as P Mallett would say (hello Peter!) emits no odor whatever.

It would indeed be interesting if it were someone at Ferrari who had received info on the McLaren in the same manner as what has unfolded here. I think that is what many of you fail to see: you are so wrapped up in your Perception of each team that you automatically assign "right" and "wrong" to the behaviours based simply on who the team is.

The problem with F1, my friends. is that there is so much $$ at stake that the people involved have a completely disproportionate notion as to what constitutes "ethical." And even when someone does something ethical (i.e. FA turning over emails) they get their entrails removed with a soup spoon by the lot of you and painted as a traitor.

But go ahead and post along there as it is especially funny that no small few of you think that I post what I do simply because I like Ferrari...but then again, I like Mc and Super Aguri too...

[Teretonga]

I am looking at your signature John, and wondering how many ways I could apply it to this situation, demonizing Ferrari, McLaren, Torro Rosso or poor Mark Webber (These seem to be the most common objects objects of significant frustration, depending on each individuals position)

[climb]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...

Pursuing McLaren through the media, (mainly Italian media), may be construed as bringing the sport into disrepute, particularly if the substance of the dossier has not been determined and if in fact the case turns out to be something less than what it has been trumped up to be.
....

from what I could see, the first booster of this mess has always been Autosport, which is not an italian nor an Anti-Mclaren magazine.

And about the general uncertainty about how this saga will end up, yes of course all the media are just living on hints and allegations, but it's always happened in the sports info industry (and not only here to be honest) since the watermelon.

[climb]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Of course I am not comparing it as a one-for-one deal Adam. However, I am saying that Ron can't keep walking around acting as if he lives in some sort of glass bubble untouched by the situation when the preponderance of evidence shows that people inside his organization did see the info. You can't, as head of an organization, keep saying that you are not responsible for the actions of the individuals of that organization. Despite that, he goes on about how no one did; how integrity is important, etc., and emphasized at McLaren, but of course he can't control anyone or know what they are doing. As head man, he is either responsible for what goes on there or he is not.

What is becoming ridiculous here (to me) is the on-going demonizing of Ferrari, as if McLaren's "shyte" as P Mallett would say (hello Peter!) emits no odor whatever.

It would indeed be interesting if it were someone at Ferrari who had received info on the McLaren in the same manner as what has unfolded here. I think that is what many of you fail to see: you are so wrapped up in your Perception of each team that you automatically assign "right" and "wrong" to the behaviours based simply on who the team is.

The problem with F1, my friends. is that there is so much $$ at stake that the people involved have a completely disproportionate notion as to what constitutes "ethical." And even when someone does something ethical (i.e. FA turning over emails) they get their entrails removed with a soup spoon by the lot of you and painted as a traitor.

But go ahead and post along there as it is especially funny that no small few of you think that I post what I do simply because I like Ferrari...but then again, I like Mc and Super Aguri too...

This is 1000% thruth and honesty John, I totally agree with you

I already had a discussion with Peter about a leader's responsibility over his employees' behaviour; someone like him deny any direct one; but when we had that dispute, it all was based on the alleged thruth of Ron's position, i.e., nobody except Coughlan was aware of Ferrari dossier, whereas now it seems that a lot of people at Macs would talk about it very "naturally"

A typical situation of "Pulcinella's secret", as we define it in Italy.

[Marbot]

One thing is for sure.No matter what happens on Thursday,I think we'll reach the 2000 post mark with relative ease.

Note: So long as it's all kept on topic that is.

[Gt_R]

I will love to agree with you JohnSCC, i think you're right. But to do so, people will just brush off the comments as "yawn..the Ferrari fans are on it again.."

What makes it upsetting is how extreme views have become, that one cannot even voice one's opinion and have it judged on the content of it, rather than the team one supports.

Granted, our bias will affect some degree of our judgement (i admit i'm just as bias as any other posters here), but its sad that rather than a team or fans reflect on the wholeness of the situation, they rather pin the problem and blame somebody else for the mess.

The media plays a huge role, no doubt. But to fault the Italian media, without finding the same fault with the UK/Spanish media, or media such as grandprix.com or others who are also bias in their "opinions", is just unfair. And i don't know about the rest of you, but i tend to avoid Italian media and Spanish media (websites/etc) because (1) I don't understand those languages (2) They tend to be too "passionate"

Like Alonso, English isn't my mother tongue either... but anyways, i think JohnSCC sums it up quite nicely about the perceptions.

[Gt_R]

Look, Ferrari also understand that this issue isn't good for the sports, but they have few alternatives besides protecting the rights and interest of their team and the investments, and seek to regain those rights through the regulatory and legal process. They can't just go "oh it's alright.. the data is lost, lets just take it as a gift, and keep quiet".

And "Banging on the door"? Ferrari barely said much since the Appeal was granted, and even then, Jean Todt have refused sensitive or subjective information despite much probing from media such as Autosport, etc etc.

And one often fail to realise that F1 means more to the essence and lifeblood of Ferrari (and fans) more than any other teams, and of those existing on the grid, only Mclaren and Williams come close. These are the teams that exist BECAUSE of F1 (unlike Toyota which exist...and join F1 for marketing purposes), and none of those 3 will love to see F1 suffer.

Too much speculations, presumptions and all are just driving the issue beyond the reality of the situation.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

But go ahead and post along there as it is especially funny that no small few of you think that I post what I do simply because I like Ferrari...but then again, I like Mc and Super Aguri too...

A bit like accusing people of demonizing Ferrari simply because they are anti-Ferrari! It's all the same pot.

First we had many people being biased.
Then we had many people saying "you are just saying that because you are biased".
Now we have stage three, the equally tedious "you are just saying that I am biased because you are biased".

If we all just stick to discussing the situation rather than over-analysising people's motives maybe we'll get somewhere. I doubt it, but maybe.

No one has the moral high ground on being biased, accusing biased, or accusing biased because being biased.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Look,

Look, what I have to say is important, don't set me to ignore.

Ferrari also understand that this issue isn't good for the sports, but they have few alternatives besides protecting the rights and interest of their team and the investments, and seek to regain those rights through the regulatory and legal process. They can't just go "oh it's alright.. the data is lost, lets just take it as a gift, and keep quiet".

They say that here:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62231

Originally Posted by Autosport

Todt says spy row damaging F1
"I mean, it's a taint on the sport every time that there is a bad controversy," he told reporters at the Monza circuit on Sunday night.
...

Another link:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62233
They will persue it in the FIA, Italy and the UK Civil Courts.

And "Banging on the door"? Ferrari barely said much since the Appeal was granted, and even then, Jean Todt have refused sensitive or subjective information despite much probing from media such as Autosport, etc etc.

Not specifics, but Ferrari have been quite vocal on the matter, confirming there view that it is an injustice.

And one often fail to realise that F1 means more to the essence and lifeblood of Ferrari (and fans) more than any other teams, and of those existing on the grid, only Mclaren and Williams come close. These are the teams that exist BECAUSE of F1 (unlike Toyota which exist...and join F1 for marketing purposes), and none of those 3 will love to see F1 suffer.

Irrelevant in this context I feel. They're passionate, great.

Too much speculations, presumptions and all are just driving the issue beyond the reality of the situation.

I couldn't agree more.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"Irrelevant in this context I feel."

Just to put into perspective that many think Ferrari (or Mclaren, or FIA) are damaging the sports with any intentions, because none of them would want to cut the veins that pump blood to their hearts. It's like a son killing the man who brought him up, he won't.

Granted, Ferrari was furious after the first council meeting, and Jean Todt and Luca have came out to voice their opinions. Fair enough, don't you think..you can't have them just keep quiet. Even Ron came out to issue a statements.. But the media coverage (the reusing of old quotes, cutting up one interview/speech to create 5/10 headlines over 3 days) made it seem as if teams/drivers had more exchanges or voiced opinions more than they really did.

And apparently, what is justice to one will be injustice to the other, and such opinions aired. They are vocal, but why is it then when others have rights to be critical and voice out about it (to the extent even praised for saying things...) that Ferrari are the ones that are blasted for doing so? Should Ferrari just accept their bad luck that information was lost, that what they felt was true wasnt revealed, and that the procedures they don't feel fair?

And since that fury of the 2/3 days, Ferrari had not initiated much remarks, nor make offensive remarks against Mclaren which are uncalled for. Rather, the top management (ie Todt) have rejected numerous probing attempts, and said sparingly little. Nor did they make much offensive statements that directly criticise the integrity of Mclaren or mock/taunt Mclaren.

And this trend isn't that hard to observe if we try to recall exact informations that have came out direct from the Ferrari camp, you'd realise there isn't that much... at least not enough to continuously be banging on any doors.

I'm not saying that Ferrari is right, Mclaren is wrong. Far from it. What i am trying to do is that, knowing that we are all people with reasoning abilities, to put forth information to minimise any misunderstandings towards a team i felt that others are unwilling to try understand.

[davyboy]

There is a difference between revenge and justice, and quite often those who have been harmed find it most difficult to distinguish between the two.

[Teretonga]

While the red men have been quiet lately I actually believe they have done more to incite the issue by 'leaking' various bits of info to the Italian press indirectly which has certainly inflamed the situation within italy. i also recognise that the italian press didn't need much encouraging and may have 'created' some things but I don't see the 'red men' quite as neutral as Gt_R has painted them.

[Gt_R]

But then again, the issue of whether Ferrari REALLY leaked secrets, or is it just our bias cause us to THINK Ferrari leaked secrets? I mean, this kind of speculation is dangerous, especially if you base your feelings and judgement on them. If conspiracy is the name of the game, we could have easily claim "Mclaren leak the secrets to Italian press, then blame Ferrari for doing it so that the fans will jump on them...".. there's just too many ways to go about it.

Really, I will like to think that if it's an organised and planned "leak" by Ferrari, they would have more sense than to leak it to their local media (which obviously make people look towards them for leaks). A phone call to the UK media, the Spanish media, Autosport, F1racing.....

The red men are not neutral. The juniors (mechanics, engineers) are upset because they felt their hardwork is stolen from them. The seniors (management) felt the same too, but also knew the value of those information in financial terms, and the financial implications should they be disadvantaged by this loss of data which is in possession of a rival team. Hence, they are keen to address this issue in order to revert a right balance.

And given that Mclaren has rarely done Ferrari any favours in the past, and now this, i think Ferrari wouldn't be too concerned with taking Mclaren's interest into consideration before they act. They just answer to themselves, the FIA, and the fans.

[JohnSSC]

GT_R, climb and Teretonga: thank you for the kind words.

Adam, well I guess I am "tedious" then for trying to point out that there are many arguing a position based not on facts but on bias towards a particular team.

It is no less "tedious" a position as constantly being reminded that somehow neither the organization nor the individuals in charge are responsible for the behaviours of the employees of that organization. Now, this brings up the interesting question as to why the leaders of said organizations are worth so much annual dosh as since they are not responsible for the individuals within than they should not be able to take credit for their actions when they do well.

From my own experience in management, it has been made quite clear to me that I would be held accountable for the behaviours of my team, and that making sure that a professional workplace was maintained was ALL of our responsibilities. I have been rewarded when this occurred and "disincented" when it did not.

To be fair here when reading the various news stories and news releases (we tend to get summaries over here) it would appear that McLaren has done far more talking than Ferrari. Certainly Todt has not been followed about like RD has and I think part of that is because he has been quiet (for the most part - please, I am aware of the exceptions!!).

It saddens me though, that when some one of us tries to bring up another point of view it is described as "tedious." No offense, but when a discussion is as heavily visited by mods or former mods, it becomes difficult for some of us (at least speaking for myself) to post contra to their line - not that mods shouldn't post (I find their insights just as valid/valuable and they add to the discussion), but it does make one wary that they could "cross the line" sooner than usual.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

I will love to agree with you JohnSCC, i think you're right. But to do so, people will just brush off the comments as "yawn..the Ferrari fans are on it again.."

well said JohnSCC - I agree 100% - and I don't like (understatement!) Ferrari, certainly from the MS era on-wards.

[JohnSSC]

Thank you Rick!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Adam, well I guess I am "tedious" then for trying to point out that there are many arguing a position based not on facts but on bias towards a particular team.

Yep, it is tedious.

It saddens me though, that when some one of us tries to bring up another point of view it is described as "tedious."

I never said that on topic points of views were tedious. Just the secondary stuff.

No offense, but when a discussion is as heavily visited by mods or former mods, it becomes difficult for some of us (at least speaking for myself) to post contra to their line - not that mods shouldn't post (I find their insights just as valid/valuable and they add to the discussion), but it does make one wary that they could "cross the line" sooner than usual.

The request is to just discuss the topic, rather than the tedious "you said that because". Rise above it and (just) discuss the topic, hopefully without bias, but also without dismissive posts along the lines of "you're POV is invalid because you are a particular fan".

If you think that because I, or any other, mod disagrees with you means you will be treated differently then you are mistaken. This is just another example of an assumption of something because of a posters position (Ferrari fan/McLaren fan/mod/etc...). The request is to drop that superfluous stuff.

No offense taken, but tread carefully from now on. (thought about leaving that joke out, but what the hell).

[JohnSSC]

I come from an era where one had to be ever-mindful of a certain bat-wielding mod...

I suppose it would be easier said then done to discuss the "issues" except so often the accompanying commentary leads us down what you feel to be a "tedious" path. There is no concomitant attempt to "de-demonize" if you will the personalities/teams involved, yet responding to those comments is undesirable.

One would think that the discussion (as this whole situation) will tend to "flow" and not always move in a linear, predicable path. I therefore reserve the right to be tedious if the need arises - after all, what some define as tedious some support...

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Should Ferrari just accept their bad luck that information was lost

Information wasn't "lost" though - it was used without authorisation by one of their own employees whose role in this seems to have been long forgotten.

Could anyone explain to me why McLaren are being alleged against because of action taken by their employees whereas the action of a Ferrari employee which started this whole mess has been disregarded?