Where were the doctors?/Delay getting to Ralf (merged)

[freud]

Originally posted by crazystu
simple answer............

the race would have been stopped and the question of;

"shall we run through the debris or the pit-lane" would never have been raised.

The race would have been stopped and the medics/teams/marshals/ anyone who wanted to would have got there sooner!!!!

who cares about tv times???? get some meds to a driver in distress!!!!

in case anyone has forgotten,..................

we are actually talking about another human being here!!!!

NO !!! I would not have gone to help him from the other side of the track ( 19yrs of marshalling has taught me that!!)

YES I would have wanted to!!!!!

NO !! I do not knock any of the guys on scene for not doing so, but...

If Michael 'HAD' stopped then the race would have been red-flagged and Ralf would have been able to receive some kind of assstance earlier/quicker. Would this have been a bad thing?????

YES!!! it could have screwed-up the tv schedules but.

would any motorsport fan have cared ????? NO!!!

Driver in trouble = Race Shutdown !!

end of story.

Well, I must say that I was a touch disappointed not to see MS stop his car right beside Ralf's car and run towards it to see his brother. I certainly remember an Ayrton Senna driving a car to reach Roland Ratzenberger's crash scene to see how he was (and that was the GP weekend when unfortunately he was killed in that horrific crash during the race).

In the past, drivers have stopped for a race car driver in times of horrific crashes. If not MS, anyone else could've stopped. Eddie Irvine stopped his car to help the MArshalls pull Burti out of his car at Spa a few years ago. Someone should've helped out Ralf in those first few minutes.

[MosquitoByte]

Yes it was a long time before any individual got to Ralf. Yes it could of been quicker. No, the Marshalls didn't do anything wrong.

As a senior flaggie and occaisional Sector Marshal in Oz, I believe those on the ground did it all right. It would have been potential suicide to even contemplate going out onto the straight without clearance.

As stated elswhere, this section of track is blind. Those on the ground can only rely on Race Control for clearance to go trackside - under anycircumstance.

We must all remember - our first duty is to ourselves.

[JohnSSC]

I think it needs to be very clear that the safety arrangements are made by Bernie and Company, not the race organizers. Both OWRS and IRL have their own teams. They do an absolutely outstanding job of getting to the drivers quickly and extracting/assisting them to minimize injury.

The model CART established with the able Dr. Terry Trammel should be THE model followed - period. It to me is unbelievable how quickly they react - often they are at the car before it has stopped moving.

Anything less than that level of service is a dis-service to the drivers and fans.

And by the way, no fan here would cheer because a driver is injured. I am insulted that anyone would even suggest that.

[EvilPumpkin]

I don't know that he was moving all that much - we got the impression that he was a sleepy boy there for a few seconds - sagging head etc. But TV can be misleading. I think it's a given that he would have been very dazed and shaken in any case.

I didn't wonder for even a second about the marshals not attending since I know they need permission to go. I have no doubt that if they had been permitted to go, they would have. You only have to look at the highly efficient and professional clearing of all the other incidents to determine that one! (ah the joys of marshalling - you clean up a bunch of stricken cars extremely efficiently, but the only thing people remember is the one you weren't allowed to go to! )

One thing that's been mentioned earlier - and it's important to remember this - the team were in radio contact with the driver. This allows for a level of prelim assessment that is simply not available in most levels of racing. I don't believe that it is a valid way of assessing an incident, but it does give you a way of determining if the driver has his ABCs and if there's anything you need to know about, like a fire that's not immediately visible. It also allows for the driver to be given instruction/reassured - a role that first arrival marshals would normally perform.

If I have an issue with anything, it's the length of time it took to get medical assistance to the scene - I would personally have considered it a bit long, given the level of impact. I'm not familiar with how the circuit works, or indeed F1 medical protocols so I can't comment on whether this was normal or not - perhaps someone with F1 experience could clarify on that one?

[Stephen Green]

Originally posted by GP Racer
I'm alittle late to the conversation here, as I just returned from Indy, but I have to say this post is nothing short of disrespectful to Americans.

We know how to handle emergency racing situations in our series, from the IRL, CART, and NASCAR, there response is normaly instantaneous, but when Bernie comes to town, only his people can make the calls at the race, all the way down to how an emergency is handled. It is out of the hands of the folks at Indy, and many who work there don't appreciate how they are taken out of the picture when F1 shows up.

And secondly, its an American tradition to give a standing ovation to any athlete or driver that gets injured on the field or track, and its a damn fine tradition of respect for what they give us! I'm also damn sure that RS heard it, and appreciated it, the same as Webber heard it and appreciated it, when he got out of his flaming car today!

You could have easily posted this without the anti-American slant.

Sorry if this was said before, I didn't get to read all the posts...

I'm not sure any of us are criticising the Americans here, merely stating that in OWRS, CART etdc you have a different way of dealing with accidents than others. I refer of course to oval tracks only here which in themselves provide a whole new set of problems for marshals. I think we all agree that medical assistance should have arrived sooner than it did, and that no marshal should have gone trackside without express instructions from race control.

Please can we try to refrain from attacking each other as that only serves to cause ill feeling. By the very nature of the accident it will cause heated debate as to the why's and wherefor's of what happened, but lets not resort to personal attacks.

ok, rant over and time to settle down with the first coffee of the morning

[Stephen Green]

Could the F1 mods merge this with the existing thread on the same subject for me??

Thanks Stephen.

[Gt_R]

Hmm..i think before things blow out of proportion, i don't think it's really people blaming Americans or anything (if there are any posts in this thread which is attacking the Americans, it's not appropriate.).

IMO, i am pleasantly surprised when the WHOLE stretch of grandstand stood up and clapped. It's VERY obvious they are not cheering Ralf crashed...but rather it's a very good gesture of support to Ralf..and i'm sure Ralf, Williams and the F1 community appreciated it. I do.

If people misread this gesture, then i'm sure it has more to do with cultural difference than anything.

As for how the marshals had their hands tied... i do agree and respect the American marshals alot..i believe they have far more experience handling accidents invovling ovals. And while i do understand how they would feel grieved/insulted that Bernie and his team of personnels step in to exert control and limit the marshal actions, i do hope the marshals understand that it is not an anti-American thing, but rather the standard of practice throughout ALL F1 events. It's just the system that F1 works under Bernie...and Bernie love everything to be done HIS WAY..(well, even the way transporters are parked)

So let's not all get into a nation vs nation, culture vs culture personal attacks.

I agree that the FIA and their safety procedures were sort of caught out in this accident. However, to give "free rein" to any marshals would cause confusions in many situations that may prove to cost dearly later on.

[Super Tourer]

Yep - lets keep nationality out of it as it has nothing whatsoever to do with it. It is simply a different working practice that I'm sure all involved will accept has it's own merits in the confined Indy circuit environment.

I am sure lessons will be learnt from this, as Stephen said in an earlier post when the CART race came to Brands the CART safety team were in charge and the UK marshals weren't able to act as they normally would. Similarly at Indy the FIA took charge.

I haven't managed to read every word on the thread, so forgive me if I am repeating a comment already made, but due to the unique working environment of the Indy track, perhaps the FIA would be better contracting the IRL safety teams to conduct rescue work along side the FIA doctors, as their experience of tending 'in the wall' accidents and accessing the track quickly is invaluable.

Perhaps on this ocassion, both Bernie and the FIA could accept that they are not infallable and let those with greater experience of the event lead the way with on track incidents.

[Suzy]

Originally posted by crazystu
Please explain 'Garcon'??????

so you advocate marshals diving onto a live track with cars doing 200mph+ ???

you think marshals not to attend a driver "just because he's moving" ?????

you think medical assistance should take longer???

and then you think that that any Medical response should wait until the entire track has been shut-down before they move???

mmmm interesting!!!!


MY briefing, ( as a marshal for nearly 20 yrs) goes like this......

"to the marshals"

"Your first priority is yourself....
then your team mate.......
then other members of the marshalling team.......
then the driver.......
then anyone else.
lastly, after spectators, comes the car."

I will not allow my marshals to put themselves in a position of danger, be it on a circuit/hillclimb/rally etc.

to be accused of anything else I take great offense, and would hope that if you wish to take it further then to do so in private to save the moderators some work.

Now I'm confused. You are insistent that no marshals put themselves in danger on the track which is fair enough.

But, in an earlier post, you advocated a driver stopping on the circuit to attend to another driver whilst other cars are circulating, thus putting him/herself in danger on the track.:confused:

Too many people getting involved causes chaos. I'm a fully-qualified First Aider and, yes, I do treat people from time-to-time. There is nothing more infuriating than having other people, frequently relatives of the injured person, interfering and getting in the way. Sheer panic on their part means that they are unable to act in a rational fashion. I've had one person physically push me out of the way, grab somebody with a suspected neck injury and start rotating their head to see how far it can move!!!

Incidentally, going back to another thread in the topic, somebody said that Ralf was clearly okay because his head was moving. Er, I can remember Ayrton Senna's head moving in the cockpit shortly after his Imola accident and I am afraid that he definitely wasn't okay. Likewise, I've seen Mika's head move in an accident and he certainly wasn't okay either.

Freud: Ayrton Senna commandeered a medical car to attend the scene of the accident just after Roland Ratenzberger had been taken to hospital. For that he was called to the Stewards of the meeting and given a severe ticking off.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by freud
Eddie Irvine stopped his car to help the MArshalls pull Burti out of his car at Spa a few years ago.

Not true.

Eddie was there to help because he had crashed out in the same incident.

[avsfan733]

how did Ralf's Visor get up? just noticed that on review of the incident

[ASCII Man]

Well, he crashed into the wall rear end first, so it's not hard to imagine that it flipped open when he hit the wall.
The impact must have been quite big for it to do that though.

[Super Tourer]

70G according to reports

[freud]

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/040622/13/4kgh.html

MEDICAL TEAMS TOOK TOO LONG

It took 'too long' for rescue and medical teams to reach a dazed Ralf Schumacher after the German shunted his Williams at more than 300km/h at Indianapolis. That's the criticism of BMW motor sport director Dr Mario Theissen.


"It was one of my thoughts at the time," the compatriot revealed.


Someone counted more than 90 seconds before the medical car, occupied by veteran FIA doctor Professor Sid Watkins, arrived on the scene to check Ralf's injuries.


"I'm disappointed [about it]," McLaren's David Coulthard told Autosport.


"Two or three minutes - that's life and death stuff."

Moreover, Coulthard wanted the race to be black-flagged, not put in Safety Car conditions where the pack passed slowly through debris and a poorly Schumacher.


"I got on the radio and said 'tell Charlie Whiting to stop the race because there's too much debris'. Obviously they chose not to," noted the Scot.


Ralf's brother Michael was also asked whether the FIA race director should have stopped the race after the massive crash. He fired: "Why are you asking me? You should go and ask Mr Charlie Whiting."

[Kicking-back]

Factual error in that report - reference "black flag" rather than red flag.

And they've only used half of DC's quote because he went on to say that with hindsight it was the right decision not to stop the race.

Red flagging it would not have got medical help to the scene any quicker.

[F1JordanUk]

Your life FIRST
Fellow Marshals Lives SECOND
Drivers life THIRD
The car LAST

You will be of no help when your dead.


And Ralf signaled the Williams pit crew he was Ok and put up his own visor

[Shinners]

Muppet rescue signed in as shinners ( forgot my password Doh !!!).

I have held silent to date but I would now ask that we consider several points . I also write this as a professional Emergency Medical Technician and a rescue crew chief and someone who has stood at the point where Ralf impacted.


1) This is one of the fastest corners in F1 today.

2) The ability of a car to deviate from line reduces as the speed increases.

3) The circuit is designed for the other way so a crashing car enters a wider area rather than a narrower one as in this case.

4) The incident occurred at the end of a lap and a long way from the nearest emeregency services vehicles due to the nature and length of the last corner at Indy ( F1 direction ).

5) The car landed towards the centre of the track reducing the usable track width.

As a rescue crew chief I do not want to arrive on scene before a safety car has passed an incident at a high speed corner as the ability of drivers to deviate from line is reduced. If the track is not slowed by some means then by my vehicles presence I have magnified the risk to in order;

Myself
My crew
The other drivers
The injured driver.
My vehicle.

The decision not to stop the race meant that we did not have an instant message to slow down to all drivers by red flag. Once that decision had been made the ability of the emergency services to respond was limited to a point where they could scramble ahead of the safety car but behind the majority of traffic so as not to end up reducing the available avoidance gap even further.

It is unfortunate to read about the many suggestions that marshals should have run onto the circuit. All professional emergency services ( I include BMMC and other trained marshals ) are taught that you do not place yourself at risk until the scene hazards are minimised.
I am sorry that Ralf had his accident but what happened happened, others being seriously injured or killed as a result of hasty actions would only have caused greater problems.

On a final note you do not transport a spinal patient at speed , you travel slowly and carefully if there are no other more life threatening injuries. The speed that I saw the ambulance travelling at was appropriate if Ralf was conscious and under the care of Advanced Life Support trained personnel.

I believe the decision not to red flag the race was wrong and delayed care to Ralf however this was not the fault of ground personnel. It is also a reflection of their professionalism that they did not react to the emotion of the situation but held their ground and proceeded as per their training. Given the level of cleanup required and the location of the incident the safety car decision was questionable.

Muppetrescue.

[JohnSSC]

Thank you Muppetrescue. While I advocate the use of a "Simple Green Rescue Team" Concept as it was known in CART, you very succinctly explained why the reactions of the marshalls was exactly what "the book" called for.

Racing is dangerous enough without doing things to make a situation more unstable.

[TedN]

Originally posted by ASCII Man
Well, he crashed into the wall rear end first, so it's not hard to imagine that it flipped open when he hit the wall.
The impact must have been quite big for it to do that though.

This photo seems to indicate the Ralf's visor was indeed opened by the impact.

Ted

[blueflagger]

Whereas the ChampCar and IRL rescue units are effective and efficient (though we marshals sometimes have issues with them) they still may not have gotten to the incident quickly.

Due to the design of the track, they would have been parked in the same location as the units used for F1 and still would need to be released by race control before leaving the station.

However, their (ChampCar & IRL) drivers are very used to driving the rescue units amongst race cars whereas the F1 teams, although race drivers, don't get near the same amount of experience in their vehicles.

[Vicki]

I just want to say I saw the clip of Ralf's crash on one of the forums on this site and I am in awe at the way officials reacted. It seemed like an eternity before anyone did anything and it makes me SO ANGRY! I'm not saying we need to endanger peoples lves, all I am saying is that maybe the FIA needs a smoother and shorter way of making decisions in emergencies. My apologies to any marshalls reading this, I think you do a great job and you need more recognition. I am only 14 but I know something was not right with that response.

[thebear]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
It was an appalling lapse on the part of the marshals. It now looks like Ralf is basically OK, but if he'd been badly injured those lost seconds and minutes could have been critical. Poor show, IMS.

You can NOT blame the marshals! Nobody goes onto the track without the express consent of the Chief Steward(clerk of the Course). As a marshal at the '02 race, that was repeated and repeated. :confused: It would also have been very dangerous to hop over the pit wall as the closing speeds are very high and you could not count on drivers reducing speed sufficiently to dodge YOU until they had been `collected' by the Safety Car.

As for the `parade' by the ambulance, that was the quickest way to exit the premises. There is no direct route except coming off track on the `backside'. At that point, there was no paddock or pit traffic to dodge or delay them.

[Vicki]

Even if marshals had gotten there in less time, I read that they can't help a driver due to a risk of aggravating the injuries. So if they had of been there, what could they have done? Someone please enlighten me.

[Peter Mallett]

I believe the marshals are required to assess the scene and address the safety of the crashed car and the other cars on the track. It is the medical team who must treat any injuries. IIRC there is a specified response time and medical teams are placed strategically to meet that time zone.

I don't think any rules were breached here and also I noted a marshal telling Ralf to keep still and not move. (Difficult for both parties).

We may be suffering from a perception problem here. It was an enormous impact. It was also spectacular (if I may use that word) so our viewpoint may be distorted. I think they got to him in good time but it just "seemed" to take an age.

[Vicki]

Is it just me, or did the cameras switch to MS's pitstop so that people were not too freaked out? If that was the case, it made it worse cos we didn't know what was going on. Plus, it shouldn't have mattered if the schedule had run over, people should be more interested in the preservation of human life than in some fictional soap saga.