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20 Oct 2015, 07:56 (Ref:3584289) | #151 | ||
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Whilst Bargs is a very experienced driver, the fact is that he is no longer good enough to keep a seat in V8 Supercars, or get an endurance gig in any of the Aussie V8 Supercar Teams, so no "super-shoe" in that car, just a good driver with lots of experience. In my opinion the TLX cars still have a lot of potential to increase their performance to bring them much closer to the ST cars, such as adopting the same big brake 380 mm diameter rotor, and six pot brake package instead of running their smaller 355 mm rotors etc. The TLX cars could also run the exact same .625" wider wheel's that the ST run all of which will help them get closer to the ST cars. The difference between the caliber of the drivers is always going to be a challenge, and one not easily solved, again this is very evident when you compare Blair MacDonald's 100% legal V8ST car's performance [set up identically to Craig Baird's car] with the Lance Hughes TLX cars which were a lot quicker than Blairs ST car, to see the issue. Last edited by Mark Petch; 20 Oct 2015 at 08:05. |
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20 Oct 2015, 20:00 (Ref:3584413) | #152 | ||
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Hate to bring this up yet again, but there has never been any problem with running different classes within the same so parity is irrelevant. In fact, the slightly bigger gap would be preferable to identify each class, seeing as bodyshells alone aren't sufficiently different.
I do believe that a compulsory pit stop is just a bit of a ploy to try and make the racing less processional, but with different classes on the same grid, it isn't required. According to the Herald report, Saturday's crowds were small, so maybe a 2 day meeting has to be a bit special to warrant it. A better start to the season at last though. |
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20 Oct 2015, 20:31 (Ref:3584421) | #153 | ||
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I think with a smaller number of good drivers in the series you will see less processional racing anyway. ST was always quite close at the front end of the grid which got people complaining about it being processional - well either you want parity or you don't, and I for one never have.
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Nice one, Centurion! |
20 Oct 2015, 21:04 (Ref:3584423) | #154 | ||
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Interesting post in several respects, the big P word again. I would prefer a level playing field, meaning that there a set of tight, clearly defined rules and within those rules you can do what you like, however, having said that the big teams with the best drivers and best budgets will always dominate as can readily be seen in Australia. Whats the alternative? I tend to agree with Socram, there are now three categories of V8 Touring car racing in the one race, and that is helping to fill the field and provide 3 races in one, so that is a win/win for everybody in my book but there are very divided opinion's on that. My own personal view is let the TLX's do whatever they want to bridge the gap from a technical point of view, engine capacity, rpm, whatever it takes, however, at the end of the day the real parity issue is between the various drivers abilities, and that's unfixable, and also the real reasons why the V8 Touring car ranks are so thin on the ground here in New Zealand. The sad fact is that when a driver is the limiting factor, the driver either packs up his toy's and goes home, or joins a free for all class like GT1 etc, were pretty much anything goes and the driver with the best car and team win regardless of talent, the end result is either that driver is lost to the sport or joins a less demanding category of motor-racing. |
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21 Oct 2015, 00:13 (Ref:3584474) | #155 | ||
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I'd agree with all of that actually.
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Nice one, Centurion! |
21 Oct 2015, 00:15 (Ref:3584475) | #156 | |
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i love the healthy banter that is taking place after the first event. I hope that after each event a sincere and worthwhile open debrief is held by those leading the future of motor racing at the top level in New Zealand. Pukekohe is going to be a fantastic place to showcase developments in front of a massive audience. Mark it is fantastic to get an insight as to what can actually be changed on the cars to gain parity. Not sure what you can do about the driver quality except time. In the old class of TLs there was always 3 or 4 different races happening which made for exciting racing. Not sure what you mean about a 100% legal ST but I am assuming to are referring to days gone by in ST racing as referred to by Foggie in his interview.
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21 Oct 2015, 00:20 (Ref:3584478) | #157 | ||
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It's a funny thing, sport. Different people like different things - league people complain that rugby is not free-flowing and has too many stoppages. Rugby people complain that there aren't enough goals in football. Football people don't really care (I've seen some truly brilliant 0-0 draws), but if they did they'd probably say that the scores are often ridiculous in rugby. But not as ridiculous as they are in basketball (which annoys me).
It's the same with motorsport - some people like lots of overtaking, but you get that in motorbike racing and I find it annoying for the same reasons as I do basketball goal scoring. On the other hand, racing where it is so close that the only time you can really pass is in the pits (like F1 was for a while and A1GP was too) can be quite boring to watch. I do like categories where there are a fairly broad set of rules and some very fast cars mixed in with some slowpokes, it all adds to the challenge of the racing - less formal, no doubt, but hugely entertaining - for me. But not for everyone else, necessarily. |
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Nice one, Centurion! |
21 Oct 2015, 00:44 (Ref:3584482) | #158 | ||
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21 Oct 2015, 00:49 (Ref:3584483) | #159 | ||
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It will come, sooner or later. Just keep tweaking the rules to suit until everyone is happy (I don't think everyone has ever been happy though).
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Nice one, Centurion! |
21 Oct 2015, 03:02 (Ref:3584501) | #160 | ||
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I agree with Mark on post # 156. Most people on here know where my loyalties lie, but I think the merger has both good and bad points to be fair.
I heard from a good source that Barg's car differs from other TLX's which makes him so much faster. Why is it that last year there was not massive gaps between him and Nick Ross, but this year he is right up there? If its down to good old engineering nouse and setup, then good on them. But something tells me Bargs is getting some special attention. The thing I liked about ST was the P word was sorted right from the get-go. Yes we had a couple of cheats, but motorsport would be lost without them. I did not find the racing processional at all, and to this day, the 2013 Enduro and Championship decider at Puke with all the classy co- drivers, is for me, one of the best races I have ever seen. One thing I said to one of the directors of the new company is that it would be a crying shame to somehow dilute the ST to bring them in line with TLX. As I understand it, the ECU's are still mapped the same, so no power or torque loss. I think they are seemingly struggling a little on the Dunnie, but they will get their heads around that soon enough. Just goes to show how good the Kooks were! They suited that chassis/engine to the ground. Anyway, my point is that the ST is so close to a SC in terms of build, style, tyre size, brakes etc etc. If young drivers want to be a SC driver then having them in a ST is the logical thing to do in my view. A TLX on the other hand is a very different concept. Although they do have more adjustable bits, which a V8SC also has. But its the chassis that is important to me. But all that aside, the sport was getting nowhere with the two parties doing battle, so this is the only logical thing to do. From here I think the onus is on TLX owners to get more out of their cars. But looking at the timesheets, they certainly held their own in Taupo. Bargs was right up there (hmmmm) while the others seemed 2 or so seconds off the pace. I agree with Mark that this could be an easy fix. Control the suspension, brakes, wheels and tyres, and magically you will sort the P word. Some engines may have to be tweaked to up the power or RPM, but I think parity could be very easy, albeit on two totally different platforms. Stu |
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"You see, the problem with NZ is that we all think we are a poor Australia, when in all reality we are just a rich Fiji" - Owen Evans, April 2015. |
21 Oct 2015, 04:53 (Ref:3584506) | #161 | ||
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lol more conspiracy theories from fan
The fact the Richards team and Bargs have had their hands on the Toyota for a while now.. might have something to with the speed difference between the lead Toyota and the Nissan. The Nissan looked rather evil at some rounds last season. Plus do we really know if Bargs was pushing the Toyota to tentenths? Or was here just doing enough when he was leading in NZV8. Bargs in the Toyota was competitive with the Manuell ST at the last NZV8 round at Puke. So it shouldn't be a surprised to see him competitive in this new combined class. |
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21 Oct 2015, 04:59 (Ref:3584507) | #162 | |||
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21 Oct 2015, 05:38 (Ref:3584510) | #163 | ||
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But seriously you are absolutely right, its V8 Touring Car number that we want, and as long as there is battles up and down the field who cares about parity. As I have said in a previous post, let the TLX guys do what ever they want, or probably in truth, can collectively agree on, to make their cars faster. If Nick Ross wants to prove beyond any doubt that it's his car not him that is off the pace, he could easily lease or buy one of the 10 ST's sitting in workshop's around the country and go head to head with the other ST drivers on an equal footing. Heck I will even lend him my ex SVG Falcon if he's up for it! |
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21 Oct 2015, 06:06 (Ref:3584514) | #164 | ||
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At last, we seem to have more agreement than disagreement on here - which probably echoes what is happening on the track. Great to see.
Totally agree with GB #159. As long as there are genuine amateurs around, willing and able to mix it with those with deeper pockets, the sport could be deemed to be healthy. Anything that prices them (amateurs) out is a step in the wrong direction - and we all like to cheer on the under-dog at times, particularly if they present themselves as sporting and are personable. They may never reach the top but as in all sports, the top of the pyramid is always very small, but as long as the base is broad, the sport is generally healthy. So yes, large grids please - in all classes or combined classes if required - and the greater the variety the better. |
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21 Oct 2015, 12:54 (Ref:3584570) | #165 | |||
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This. Nail, head, hit. |
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21 Oct 2015, 19:35 (Ref:3584640) | #166 | ||
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So we all agree then, in a weird sort of way. That's got to be a first!
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Nice one, Centurion! |
21 Oct 2015, 20:31 (Ref:3584647) | #167 | ||||
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He actually prefers the other Toyota. It is a bit stiffer, since it hasn’t done as many miles and has a new front end courtesy of the Manfeild shunt it had. Quote:
You only have to look at how the other TLX's handle to see that the Toyota's are setup differently and try to achieve their speed in a certain way, that the others don't. Quote:
A good example of that is the one time that the Falcon TLX was run by RTM, it was significantly closer to the front and Haydn said it was one of the best weekends he'd had racing in the class. |
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21 Oct 2015, 20:57 (Ref:3584652) | #168 | ||
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This is similar to A1GP, when there was one garage with three teams running out of it who were a country mile quicker than anyone else. They had the best engineering setup.
If you wanted true car parity one of the things you would have to do would be to force all teams to share their setup data after each test - but even then different drivers prefer different setups so it still might not work. |
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Nice one, Centurion! |
21 Oct 2015, 21:16 (Ref:3584655) | #169 | ||
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Personally I think that previously there were 'games' going on in the TLX category that have now disappeared, and Barg's and the Richards Team are just doing a great job. So its now up to the other TLX cars to lift their game. |
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22 Oct 2015, 02:30 (Ref:3584691) | #170 | ||
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Best news comes from the HRC newsletter in that there were over 200 cars at the meeting. That is what we wanted and judging by so many well supported classes, we are at last on the up and up. Makes a change from the 68 cars at a tier one meeting at Taupo not so long ago.
Congratulations to all series/group organisers as there is no doubt whatever that they are one of the major keys to this successful turnaround. Sadly for some, there may be some great cars out there that should be racing but are now 'classless', so maybe we need some sort of allcomers class at each meeting with priority given to those orphaned cars? |
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22 Oct 2015, 19:00 (Ref:3584797) | #171 | ||
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Off Topic, however, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but doesn't GTNZ already provide for All Comers racing? Or are you talking about open top racing? If you are talking about open top racing, as in sports cars and single seater's, then I suggest you help organise them into a group that can give a formal mandate to a representative, and then apply to the newly formed, and MSNZ sanctioned, SOG's organisation, so that they have a voice and can be given due consideration during Event planning early next year. If you have in interest in doing this then then I suggest you phone PJ at GVI Penrose, who is the Chairman of SOG's and talk to him about you ideas etc. |
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22 Oct 2015, 19:27 (Ref:3584801) | #172 | ||
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Off topic indeed Mark, but for 20 years I have been very busy as Convenor with not one but two race groups. (There were too many cars for one, so we had to split! The irony of that should appeal to some...)
For the last 10 years, totally on my own, with no committee. For the last 7 years, we have had over 100 registered, paid up drivers, (and 9 out of the last 11 seasons) so I think I have already done my bit as I am standing down at the end of this season and not looking for a replacement series thanks. As you well know, Series as opposed to clubs, don't get a vote at MSNZ conferences anyway. Although we worked very closely with the late Ian Snellgrove (MSNZ), setting up a template for structured series rules/articles, we turned down actually being a Sanctioned Series for very sound reasons. We remain to this day, an invitation series for similar reasons, as it also allows us full control of entrants and running the series, maintaining series discipline and eligibility. Allcomers NOT part of a series was what I was suggesting, as this allows organisers/promoters to add a varied local content grid at each venue to add a bit of variety. Whether that is a single seater, saloon or sports GT grid would be up to them. |
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22 Oct 2015, 20:25 (Ref:3584811) | #173 | ||
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Ray, With no disrespect, It seems that you are not aware of what has happened in the last 6 months. The all new Series Organising Group SOG, is now responsible for the Premier Series Summer motor racing calendar, which this year consists of 9 major events including the closed shop Australian Supercar Pukekohe round, and the Manfield NZ Grand Prix meeting. It is now SOG's that make's the collective decision's as to what categories race over the Premier Motor racing Season, not MSNZ, other than the V8 Super car meeting. I am not suggesting that you yourself organise the "classless" all-comers but if no one is prepared to do that then obviously they have no voice at SOG's and I for one would support them joining SOG's if they can get themselves organised. |
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22 Oct 2015, 21:14 (Ref:3584818) | #174 | ||
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Thanks Mark. I understand where you are coming from. Obviously, it is the SOG's group we have to thank for getting things back on track (no pun intended). There is no current SOG's thread on here, but you can just start one!
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I always did march to a different drumbeat - Peter Brock |
23 Oct 2015, 19:24 (Ref:3585050) | #175 | |
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Ray, what type of race cars are you referring to as classless?
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