[BTCC] Round Ten, Brands Hatch GP 23-24 Oct, Races 28,29&30

[SR18]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

I really hate inconsistency of TOCA, back in the days Hondas were peggeed back , in 2011 they even forced them to run 0.1 bar less turbo boost compared to the other turbo cars

WSR in 2019 build a good car without being unconventional like the boxer engine , maybe made to look better thanks to 2 crack drivers , mid season penalties came first they had to chose higher ride height or more weight than boost reduction by giving everyone else more boost

2020-2021 Infiniti is top dog , specially in 2021 clearly obvious that it carry 75kg weight while his rivals can't perform with it yet here TOCA doesn't apply any penalties

100% agree with you

[Speedysnapper]

Whilst on the subject of inconsistency, can somebody please tell me why ingram got penalised for his (not) push to pass on Shedden at Donington, yet at Brands Hatch both Butcher and Chilton got away with far worse, Chiltons even causing ££££ damage to other cars….. please explain, because right now, I am struggling to see this championship as not being somewhat biased……

[medius]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

2020-2021 Infiniti is top dog , specially in 2021 clearly obvious that it carry 75kg weight while his rivals can't perform with it yet here TOCA doesn't apply any penalties

Ash Sutton's car does, the other two Q50's don't. major difference being driving talent combined with engineering talent. I wouldn't say the Infiniti in general is fastest, THAT single Infiniti is fast. But....

TOCA have no mandate for individual cars. For example if one Honda needs pulling in, all Hondas get pulled back. Likewise if WSR get on a roll and get an adjustment so does Tom Chilton trundling around in 21st.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by SR18

Success ballast is going to be scrapped???

BTCC reveals hybrid details, ditches success ballast for 2022 rules

'The BTCC will no longer use success ballast when it introduces new rules in 2022, and the Cosworth hybrid system will instead be used to balance performance in the series'

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

I really hate inconsistency of TOCA, back in the days Hondas were peggeed back , in 2011 they even forced them to run 0.1 bar less turbo boost compared to the other turbo cars

WSR in 2019 build a good car without being unconventional like the boxer engine , maybe made to look better thanks to 2 crack drivers , mid season penalties came first they had to chose higher ride height or more weight than boost reduction by giving everyone else more boost

2020-2021 Infiniti is top dog , specially in 2021 clearly obvious that it carry 75kg weight while his rivals can't perform with it yet here TOCA doesn't apply any penalties

2019 - 9 out 10 race 1 and 2 were won by BMW.
2017 - 8 out of 10 race 1 and 2 were won by the Subaru.
Between Donington and Croft in 2012, 9 out of 10 consecutive races (incl R3s) were won by Honda Yuasa.
Between Knockhill and Brands in 2009, 9 out of 12 consecutive races were won by Chevrolet.
Between Mondello and Donington in 2006, 9 out of 10 R1&R2 races were won by Halfords.

2021 - Best run of results for the Infiniti - 2x 1sts and 2x 2nds in a six-race sequence. Best 10 race sequence - 4x podiums. Ingram and Butcher had periods of greater dominance than the Infiniti did during the season.

Do you see the difference?

[S griffin]

But none of them were really dominant. A lot of it was track specific. I admit Honda Yuasa were quite dominant in 2011-12 though. But with others like the Chevy it depended on the track. There were still plenty of other winners

To be fair Infiniti could have won more, but others raised their game as the season wore on. Sutton was just good at banking points and made the most of his luck

But that’s enough, the racing is still good enough

[Matt K]

Can't see the point in giving reasonable arguments for why Sutton and Infiniti were not really dominating this season - some are so insistent on the idea they were 'too strong, too fast' that logical arguments don't reach them. If someone doesn't like the fact there are team/driver combinations that can just be the best in a given year, then I'd suggest watching one-make cups where all cars are the same (still different teams though) or Formula E where results seem rather random.

Apart from this, a fantastic season from Sutton and his team, personally I wanted him to win more races but his (and his engineer's) strategy for the season has paid off a great deal. Chapeau bas, clearly the best this season.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I suspect the Juniors also had "least laps completed vs laps they should have completed" - Saturday was just a mess for the Juniors, they barely got any running in with saftey cars and red flags. That's probably why they get less Sunday time - they waste it.

Juniors also missed out on a televised race at Oulton Park because of all the red flags meaning the final race of the day was held over to Knockhill.

Ultimately, if the drivers want to be in a championship where every race is watched by a thousand people on YouTube, there are plenty of options open to them. But the hundreds of thousands of viewers they get on ITV4 seem to be more appealing to the sponsors.

[Spanner monkey]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wonder what Dick Benetts meant with we need help from somewhere! won't go further

That they will need 3 paying drivers without BMW backing...

[antnee]

How fast is the Infiniti?

Podiums this year
9 - Cook (inc the DSQ), Ingram, Hill, Sutton
8 - Turkington, Shedden
6 - Butcher
4 - Proctor, Rowbottom, LLoyd
3 - Moffat

Teams Wise
15 - BTC
14 - BMW (3 cars)
12 - Laser
12 - Dynamics
10 - MB

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

I really hate inconsistency of TOCA, back in the days Hondas were peggeed back , in 2011 they even forced them to run 0.1 bar less turbo boost compared to the other turbo cars

WSR in 2019 build a good car without being unconventional like the boxer engine , maybe made to look better thanks to 2 crack drivers , mid season penalties came first they had to chose higher ride height or more weight than boost reduction by giving everyone else more boost

2020-2021 Infiniti is top dog , specially in 2021 clearly obvious that it carry 75kg weight while his rivals can't perform with it yet here TOCA doesn't apply any penalties

On reflection, you have literally described how consistent TOCA have been when carrying out performance adjustments.

When the Honda engine was adjusted - ALL cars running the NB engine had to make the same adjustments.
When the CoG changes were introduced - ALL RWD cars had to make the same adjustments.
When base weights or start boost reductions were implemented - ALL RWD cars had to make the same adjustments.
When the BMW engine was adjusted - ALL cars running the NB engine had to make the same adjustments.

Now, you are advocating for TOCA to change their approach because one driver has had two very consistent and reliable seasons (only finishing outside the points in 3 of 57 races) - and carry out a performance adjustment on ALL cars driven by Ash Sutton.

[Sodemo]

The infinity doesn’t get its speed from the engine, it’s one of the slowest cars in speed traps, it’s from the chassis.

The team has either done an amazing job on the chassis within the rules, they have found a legal loophole somewhere within the rules, or they are exploiting something outside of the rules, although the latter I’d have thought very unlikely.

[CroftPilgrim]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

IMO, Sutton won the title by getting results when the car was heavy - and not because he had more power.

Absolutely spot on. He set fastest laps with maximum ballast. You can argue about whether that was fair or not, but it's the reason he won.

[S griffin]

For me he did all that was required. To do it in spite of the ballast was a great achievement and shows what he was up against. He’s a tin top legend, one who could win in any series and should be remembered for years to come

[SR18]

Originally Posted by S griffin

For me he did all that was required. To do it in spite of the ballast was a great achievement and shows what he was up against. He’s a tin top legend, one who could win in any series and should be remembered for years to come

Being waved by by the whole field in multiple races isn't a great achievement

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by SR18

Being waved by by the whole field in multiple races isn't a great achievement

Ah right - so it's no longer that the car is too good and needs pegging back, but we've now moved on to blaming the rest of the field for not competing?

What's the point in having the car's performance reduced if the field are going to wave it through anyway?

Incidentally - who do you think did the waving by?

Turkington, Hill, Ingram, Cook, Shedden and Butcher were all competing hard for their own results - did they wave him through?
If not - then their teammates need to be looked at. Did Jelley, Oliphant, Jackson, Osborne, Smiley, Proctor, Rowbottom and Smelt do the waving through?
If it wasn't those challenging for wins, or their teammates, then that leaves the other BMWs, the Vauxhalls and the Cupras?

Unless you are suggesting that teammates of his rivals actually helped Sutton rather than their own team?

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by SR18

Being waved by by the whole field in multiple races isn't a great achievement

Let me guess... Honda fan?

[Overboost]

Originally Posted by Spanner monkey

That they will need 3 paying drivers without BMW backing...

Indeed, though the pressure may be eased if they get paid for running under a different banner, say MB Motorsport for example.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by SR18

Being waved by by the whole field in multiple races isn't a great achievement

As someone who raced a saloon car fairly successfully many, many years ago, you chose carefully who you pick your battles with, because, if you don't, you usually end up losing lots of time on the track by trying to defend an irrepressible force. There is little point in trying to defend against a car/driver combination that you know is going to be far quicker than you.

And sometimes you can even get on the tail of that faster car and improve your end result by getting past other cars using opportunities created by the faster car.

It isn't as simple as just waving another competitor through; you have to think tactics all the time.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by SR18

Being waved by by the whole field in multiple races isn't a great achievement

Originally Posted by Pickles

Let me guess... Honda fan?

No - Turkington....

Originally Posted by SR18

I am a Turkington fan but come on how bad has he been this Weekend? NO overtakes?? ridiculous...

And at the same time - not a fan of Sutton....

Originally Posted by SR18

[Sutton]was waved bye by the hole field. It's just disgusting

Originally Posted by SR18

It's unacceptable. And this has been the case multiple times this season.
At least Chilton and Hill did not wave [Sutton] bye.

Originally Posted by SR18

Sutton never has been one of the fairest drivers

Although an interesting comment previously made:

Originally Posted by SR18

It's time we get rid of the success ballast. In my opinion it's not acceptable to penalise somebody who does better than the rest of the field. I found the Turkington-Sutton situation from R3 laughable when Sutton beeing waved by by almost everyone once again and Turkington struggling because of his win in R2. Something needs to change ...

Which I guess means it's not acceptable to penalise somebody who does better than the rest of the field, unless that somebody is Sutton?


Oh - and a bit of a bugbear of mine at the moment is the continued reference to 'penalising' cars or drivers. Penalties are for when a regulation has been breached. I know what the posters are referring to - but boost adjustments etc. are not penalties. A penalty is bounded - performance adjustments endure.....

[Nononsensecapeesh]

I'm just happy for Sutton and hope he can make it three in a row next year.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

I'm just happy for Sutton and hope he can make it three in a row next year.

And something that I noticed during the ITV coverage on Sunday is that Sutton seems to have really good relations with most of the other drivers (I'm sure that there is at least one exception), and the fact that, as was mentioned in the commentary, he has been mentoring his own team-mate which accounts for Moffat's progress this year.

I don't think that many other drivers have earned that respect down a pit lane.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And something that I noticed during the ITV coverage on Sunday is that Sutton seems to have really good relations with most of the other drivers (I'm sure that there is at least one exception), and the fact that, as was mentioned in the commentary, he has been mentoring his own team-mate which accounts for Moffat's progress this year.

I don't think that many other drivers have earned that respect down a pit lane.

I agree Mike and thought it was great to see. He clearly has a lot of talent and appears to be a really nice guy. Over the past couple of seasons although he may have had the occasional coming together with other cars I feel this has been due to his competitive nature encouraging to try a move that wasn't 100% on*, and unlike a number of others that share the grid with him, none of these contacts have been deliberate. He does appear to race fairly and give his competitors room but has an extraordinary ability to put his car in places where others cannot. This is probably why he is shown such respect.
*(I will now await comments citing an obscure occasion where Ash was deemed to have deliberately punted someone off!)

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

(I will now await comments citing an obscure occasion where Ash was deemed to have deliberately punted someone off!)

There are none - the whole field waves him by

[Greem]

Notably he also doesn't get involved in rubbishing his competitors in interviews, or on social media. He's quite the smooth operator, isn't he?