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17 Dec 2008, 00:10 (Ref:2356503) | #151 | ||
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Just had a look in the aforementioned Bathurst ’87 annual of what is said regarding the various M-Sport entries. What it essentially says in the introduction to the various teams and cars (page 84), Schnitzer ran their regular WTCC entries #40 and #46, but “As well they ran two extra, similar looking cars – Nos. 41 and 47 – for Motorsport”. “These two cars had been literally commandeered from the semi-works Linder and Zakspeed teams (Nos. 41 and 47 respectively) in Germany for Bathurst. Previously those cars had been used by those teams to contest the lesser European Touring Car Championship and German Championship”.
As I understand it, the #41 (Gary Brabham/Juan Fangio II) was the Linder car and the #47 (Anette Meeuvissen/Mercedes Stermitz) was the Zakspeed car. A little further on it says that CiBiEmme and Bigazzi raced only one car each: #42 CiBiEmme (Johnny Cecotto/Gianfranco Brancatelli) was a one race old car, having only done the Nürburgring WTCC, while.. #43 Bigazzi (Olivier Grouillard and BMW Junior Team driver [sic] Winni Vogt). “It’s No. 43 brand new to replace the previous team car rolled by Olivier Grouillard in practice for the sodden Silverstone TT round of the WTCC”. This then explain the plain white livery of this car, considering Silverstone happened only four weeks prior and half the globe away from Bathurst. A long distance shot of the car in the race does show the regular '87 M-Sport colors though. Looking at a picture of the #41 at page 125 (from the race itself) confuses matter a bit. The Compaq sponsored car is shot from behind and has a small CiBiEmme sticker on the right hand side of the boot lid as well as on the pillar of the rear wing, making it a Linder car, run by Schnitzer, sponsored by CiBiEmme!? If it’s any clue, the stickers say Pirelli tyres, as for the #42 car (and #43), while #47 has Yokohama stickers on, as does the #40 and #46. As for the entry list in the back of the book, it’s not definite regarding the #41 and #47 entries, while the other four M-Sport cars is listed as of their regular teams. My best bet is that CiBiEmme somehow ended up running two cars at Bathurst, but that it was not necessarily how it was intended in the first place. Considering how the four white/red/blue striped cars were seen at the TAFE work shop during practice and qualifying, the Schnitzer team might have felt for a bit of relief. Schnitzer even had a car air freighted to Australia for the following weeks race at Calder, that eventually saw Pirro and Ravaglia finish second. http://www.groupc.org.au/Photo%20Gal...%20m3%2010.htm I’m not taking absolutely taking everything written in the Bathurst annuals as the gospel truth, but if every race had this kind of testimonies written about it… To add a bit further on things, the DTM Zakspeed cars of Eric van de Poele and Marc Hessel ended up in Sweden for 1988. Per-Gunnar Andersson running the BMW Dealer Team Sweden cars for himself and Lennart Bohlin sharing one car during the early part of the season, but running a two car team from mid-summer. Jesper Last edited by Jesper OH; 17 Dec 2008 at 00:13. |
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17 Dec 2008, 09:16 (Ref:2356641) | #152 | ||
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Jesper excellent input once again.
I also have to agree that it is strange to have a car loaned from Linder run by Schnitzer with CiBiEmme logos on it and still running Pirellis which CiBiEmme did anyway IIRC? Hmmmm, another little mystery methinks!!! Thanks also to KA and ian. Between the 3 of you, you've kickstarted the thread back into life!! |
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17 Dec 2008, 10:03 (Ref:2356685) | #153 | |
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17 Dec 2008, 10:08 (Ref:2356687) | #154 | |
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17 Dec 2008, 10:13 (Ref:2356691) | #155 | |
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17 Dec 2008, 10:14 (Ref:2356692) | #156 | |
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Excellent,many thanks.Ian.
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17 Dec 2008, 10:53 (Ref:2356706) | #157 | ||
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17 Dec 2008, 13:23 (Ref:2356793) | #158 | |
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Yes it is an M3 it raced at Silverstone and a few races in the DTM series. You are correct it may seem odd to go all the way to Calder but not do Bathurst!
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17 Dec 2008, 15:16 (Ref:2357022) | #159 | |||
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18 Dec 2008, 10:09 (Ref:2357524) | #160 | |
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It's the Schwaben Motorsport car of Thomas von Loewis- as Ian said, it mainly ran in the DTM, but also turned up in the WTCC a few times- Nurburgring (logically enough for a German privateer), the TT and then surprisingly popped up at Calder and Wellington.
Drivers were always von Loewis and Prince Leopold, joined by Jan Thoelke at the 'Ring, and the only WTCC result was 12th at Wellington, otherwise posting 3 DNFs |
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18 Dec 2008, 10:25 (Ref:2357540) | #161 | |||
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I have a little history about the 87 Zakspeed DTM cars, it seems they ran 3 chassis that year - M3-04 for Mark Hessel M3-10 for Eric Van de Poele 1st half of season M3-36 VDP 2nd half M3-10 was used in the 87 Nurburgring 24 hr where it had a small shunt but finished the race. |
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18 Dec 2008, 11:19 (Ref:2357570) | #162 | ||
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Welcome Guy, appreciate the input on the chassis numbers.
We could transfer that info to the archive thread shortly. |
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19 Dec 2008, 04:25 (Ref:2358044) | #163 | ||
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Thanks Adrian. |
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19 Dec 2008, 16:57 (Ref:2358354) | #164 | ||
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At first I wondered if that was a typo, but frustratingly, there's not a clear pic of the car in the book... However,.it appears in the background of several and appears to still be in BMW Motorsport colours (ie white with the M-Sport stripes). So is this the original paintjob for one of the other M-Sport cars sold to Bill Bryce, or a Bryce respray of the ex-CiBiEmme #42? Given that by Calder, we've got no less than 7 factory-backed M3s in Australia/NZ (including CiBiEmme's #42, and the replacement car flown in for Calder), it would be interesting to be able to unravel which exact cars appeared at which races for which teams, and what subsequently happened to them....As you said, the information in these books is pretty comprehensive, but is it always 100% gospel...? |
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19 Dec 2008, 18:40 (Ref:2358408) | #165 | |||
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Page 123 has a very nice shot of the car from it's right hand side going up the mountain, with the ajoining text saying ex-CiBiEmme car. Blues legend Muddy Waters once released an album entitled "Mud In Your Ears". Given the visual aspect of this forum, a retitling of Muddy's title might be appropriate here Jesper |
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19 Dec 2008, 18:56 (Ref:2358418) | #166 | |||
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http://amagawa.hp.infoseek.co.jp/93-...TC-R9entry.htm R1 - 1993.03.14 - Mine - 10th o/a, 3rd in class R2 - 1993.04.25 - Autopolis - 7th o/a, 2nd in class R3 - 1993.05.16 - Sugo - 9th o/a, 4th in class R4 - 1993.07.04 - Suzuka - 16th o/a, 6th in class R5 - 1993.08.08 - Aida - 6th o/a, 1st in class R6 - 1993.08.22 - Tsukuba - 8th o/a, 3rd in class R7 - 1993.09.19 - Tokachi - 9th o/a, 2nd in class R8 - 1993.10.10 - Sendai - 7th o/a, 3rd in class R9 - 1993.10.31 - Fuji - 7th o/a, 2nd in class Eventually Reid was classified in third, Kawamoto in forth, in division 2. The difference being found on the number of miles covered over the season! Jesper |
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19 Dec 2008, 19:12 (Ref:2358425) | #167 | |||
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http://www.groupc.org.au/Photo%20Gal...up_A/index.htm (Lot's of interesting pictures to be found there, BTW) Jesper |
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20 Dec 2008, 10:25 (Ref:2358746) | #168 | |
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Hi Jesper,you beat me to it! The results for the Asahi Kikos car all match mine (from a different source),so I think we can take them as accurate! Ian.
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20 Dec 2008, 12:36 (Ref:2358805) | #169 | ||
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What's your source, Ian? As I'm looking for any kind of results for Japanese group A results I'm curious (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...05#post2353805 - I'm getting to 1993 eventually!)
Thought a bit about the M3-60 Zakspeed number. If #36 was taken up mid-season (the '87 DTM season ended in August), It could be that this car was taken up by Zakspeed for the October Hockenheimring race; A race over 2 x 100 kilometer heats, and essentially the future DTM format from 1988-1996 ITC. This race was a non-championship event and generally little known. From memory only, Zakspeed was a BMW team till 1989, then shifting to Mercedes-Benz. Jesper |
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20 Dec 2008, 13:41 (Ref:2358826) | #170 | ||
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Thanks for that link, had not been on their site for a few years. Mal |
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23 Dec 2008, 16:13 (Ref:2360248) | #171 | ||
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Quick question
In 1990, the BTCC Mobil sponsoredBMW M3's for Sytner and IIRC Mike Smith ( and the Hoy Securicor and Harvey/Bristow Labatts car). Were they Group A or the then new Super Touring class. I always thought they were group A, but I red an article online that said Vauxhall and BMW had an advantage for 1991 because they used Super-touring the previous year. thanks |
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23 Dec 2008, 16:34 (Ref:2360260) | #172 | ||
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http://fineprintbooks.com.au/images/pics/61528.jpg ) They seem less detailed than the Tuckey version, but include a section which goes through the entry by type of car, giving background on each individual entry, often including a little history of the car... Helpfully, they seem to contradict each other on the origins of the Bryce M3..... Perhaps one of our Aussie correspondants can advise which is the more reliable source as a rule! |
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23 Dec 2008, 16:39 (Ref:2360262) | #173 | ||
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Andy, indeed, in 1990 the M3's ran to the new 2-litre 'Class 2' spec as it was originally known before the 'Super Touring' name was assigned in 1991 IIRC. The only pukka Group A cars were the Class A Sierras.
Prodrive continued to run Sytner but the second car was shared between Kurt Luby, Kelvin Burt and Tim Sugden under a kind of Junior Team umbrella. Vic Lee ran a car for Jeff Allam, Godfrey Hall continued with his Maguire run car with John Clark in a sister one. No one ran old spec 2.3 M3's because there wasn't a class for them anymore, it was the Sierras and I guess anything else anyone wanted to run (but didn't) in the over 3000cc big class and the new 2-litre engined cars in Class B. The Securicor and Labatt's Vic Lee run cars you refer to were entered alongside the Prodrive cars in the 1991 series, which Hoy won. Hope that helps? Last edited by chunterer; 24 Dec 2008 at 14:29. |
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23 Dec 2008, 18:07 (Ref:2360333) | #174 | ||
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fantastic. Doning a piece on Super touring for Speedhunters and just wanted to clarify.
Thanks |
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23 Dec 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2360361) | #175 | |||
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Regarding the 1991 BTCC M3s, Vic Lee said in a contemporary interview that the secret behind his M3s - including champion Will Hoy's car - was that they were build to Super Touring specifications, while the opposition build on older group A thinking. If I understood Lee correct, the Prodrive car among others, could have been build from the ground up to 2-litre Super Touring spec., but not to the full extent of what the regulations actually allowed. I know that the 1990 Lee M3 for Jeff Allam, was a former Bigazzi (or CiBiEmme, can't remember now) car, and this experience inspired him to build his own fleet of cars for 1991. Jesper |
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Tags |
atcc, bigazzi, bmw m3, btcc, cibiemme, dtm, e30, etcc, frank gardner, group a, linder, prodrive, ravaglia, schnitzer |
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