BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[NZSTfan]

Crikey there must be sod all to talk about today. Do the Edgels get pinged for lighting up the rears at the green light on one of their rides?
And anyway define team member? I dont get paid and i have no obligation. They just appreciate my input on the weather side of things. Ive done the same for a few other teams too. Does this make me a team member for them as well?
On this 80% rule....i am well aware of it but i am yet to see any driver in utes, st and nzv8tc going for a yeeha with an excited guest adhering to that rule....which is a doofus rule anyway IMO

[Goat Boy]

Honestly who gives a monkey's?

[socram]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Honestly who gives a monkey's?

Not me...

"The number of rules is obviously inverse to the number of people watching, driving or enjoying a race/series."

[adbutler]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Honestly who gives a monkey's?

Comment of the day!

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Crikey there must be sod all to talk about today. Do the Edgels get pinged for lighting up the rears at the green light on one of their rides?
And anyway define team member? I dont get paid and i have no obligation. They just appreciate my input on the weather side of things. Ive done the same for a few other teams too. Does this make me a team member for them as well?
On this 80% rule....i am well aware of it but i am yet to see any driver in utes, st and nzv8tc going for a yeeha with an excited guest adhering to that rule....which is a doofus rule anyway IMO

You wonder why ST is failing and people have pointed out no enforcement of rules..... yet your happy as you got a ride despite it being in breach of rules.

You then get upset that its a slow news day and still failing to get the point! The series is screwed until the rules are enforced and managed by people with half a clue and by someone that cant contradict themselves in pitlane when you ask the same question twice on rules.

[NZSTfan]

Hi BP
Totally agree with you regarding rule enforcement. However in my case, being a sponsor, I have not caused the team to breach any rules. If the rule did apply to someone like me who happens to give them 'take it or leave it' information on weather, then I strongly doubt the team would have allowed me to go in the car. I dont provide any technical input at all, which is basically what the rule implies.
You may choose to interpret that differently then so be it. I am not going to get into a keyboard war with you.
In hindsight my post should have been clearer that I am first and foremost a proud sponsor, which does entitle me to some perks.
End of...

[promax]

I'm not sure why you're surprised people have questioned your involvement with the team. Your essay reads like you're heavily involved with the team. Hell.. you even make the call on what tyre to use.

[NZSTfan]

Not quite promax. I make a call on the weather status and give that info to the team. They then decide what they think is best for the situation. I also gave the same info to a couple more teams that I like. They also can do whatever they like with that info.

[flyingduck]

I'm a sponsor, on race days when I attend the team I support gives me an odd job to make me feel part of the team, I'm a sponsor not a team member much like STFAN.

Well my question is who is going to be at the next round to increase the field as while 8 cars did have some close racing definitely needed more cars.

[Ugy]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Honestly who gives a monkey's?

+1

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by socram

I sincerely hoped that Super Tourers would fulfil all the promises and meet all the expectations, to give us something worth watching, but it hasn't happened, so sorry Mark, to a paying punter, it is no longer a draw card.

At the start of the series I think it did do well and has slipped over time.

I think part of the problem is that sometimes the world changes faster than businesses can respond to it. It was clear around 2006-2007 of the old NZV8's that they needed to start thinking beyond the cars they ran at the time and by the time that was birthed in the form of V8 Supertourers, several years had passed along with turmoil over the creation of that series. In that time the world entered a global depression(in my opinion), finances and economies changed and the car market itself changed. Ford vs. Holden was a big pull for a while, but that's almost dead now(sadly).

So I think when Supertourers should have been hitting it's peak 2-3 seasons in, instead the world has changed beyond that and I don't think that's what the public is looking for right now.

My concern with Supertourers from the beginning was all the same engines which for a top level series is just a little too much "parity" for me. But I think the issues are wider than that and it has to do with the marketplace in general.

Around the world, grids are bursting with sports cars, even in NZ with the South Island series and in Australia with GT. The guys with big wads of disposable income and sponsorship/patronage have shifted in that direction and there are plenty of pro teams and manufacturers that support sports car racing. Often these series run long races so costs can be shared among drivers or the rich guy can hire a pro driver to share the seat.

Like I said in another thread those involved have to decide whether they are running a series for their own ego and self fulfillment or if they are running a series as an ongoing profitable business. There are two different roads to take and if you want to have an ongoing profitable business you have to endeavor to put a spectacular product on track that people will be excited about seeing. "Spec" series as I call them might be fine for a support class, but for a top level series it's got to blow the socks off the public.

Right now I think things might even be headed lower in the toilet, especially with near dead series like NZV8 still out there flogging around(believe me I loved that series years ago but it's time to move on) and you have entities like MSNZ, which I have no idea what they are doing. I get the vibe of a lot of half hearted stuff thrown at the ceiling with no direction. Perhaps someday a new leader will emerge with a good strategy and direction. Or perhaps not.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

At the start of the series I think it did do well and has slipped over time.

I think part of the problem is that sometimes the world changes faster than businesses can respond to it. It was clear around 2006-2007 of the old NZV8's that they needed to start thinking beyond the cars they ran at the time and by the time that was birthed in the form of V8 Supertourers, several years had passed along with turmoil over the creation of that series. In that time the world entered a global depression(in my opinion), finances and economies changed and the car market itself changed. Ford vs. Holden was a big pull for a while, but that's almost dead now(sadly).

So I think when Supertourers should have been hitting it's peak 2-3 seasons in, instead the world has changed beyond that and I don't think that's what the public is looking for right now.

My concern with Supertourers from the beginning was all the same engines which for a top level series is just a little too much "parity" for me. But I think the issues are wider than that and it has to do with the marketplace in general.

Around the world, grids are bursting with sports cars, even in NZ with the South Island series and in Australia with GT. The guys with big wads of disposable income and sponsorship/patronage have shifted in that direction and there are plenty of pro teams and manufacturers that support sports car racing. Often these series run long races so costs can be shared among drivers or the rich guy can hire a pro driver to share the seat.

Like I said in another thread those involved have to decide whether they are running a series for their own ego and self fulfillment or if they are running a series as an ongoing profitable business. There are two different roads to take and if you want to have an ongoing profitable business you have to endeavor to put a spectacular product on track that people will be excited about seeing. "Spec" series as I call them might be fine for a support class, but for a top level series it's got to blow the socks off the public.

Right now I think things might even be headed lower in the toilet, especially with near dead series like NZV8 still out there flogging around(believe me I loved that series years ago but it's time to move on) and you have entities like MSNZ, which I have no idea what they are doing. I get the vibe of a lot of half hearted stuff thrown at the ceiling with no direction. Perhaps someday a new leader will emerge with a good strategy and direction. Or perhaps not.

How about these m/star
Bathurst bound Mazda 3 V8 breaks cover
http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/02/04/...-breaks-cover/

Yahoo

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Woah! First and foremost, I am a sponsor and because of that status i asked for a hotlap and got one. I have no obligation to the team. I dont have to be there full stop. They don't tell me to be there at a certain time and i dont get paid in any way.
It just so happens that I like to be an active sponsor and help them out with things i know about that COULD be of benefit to the driver. I do not work on the car at all. I am nowhere near the car during pitstops so i guess if you want to put it crudely then i am a hanger-oner by your definition.
Hell, i had more to do with the ute and i did about 12 hotlaps in a row with them! Surprised I'm not in the jail of motorsport!
Crikey....

Thanks for the info once again GH

Sorry NZSTfan, you had fun so the fun police turned up. Can't have fun at motorsport meetings, so stop that and behave yourself.

[NZSTfan]

^^ so true mountainstar.

[promax]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Not quite promax. I make a call on the weather status and give that info to the team. They then decide what they think is best for the situation. I also gave the same info to a couple more teams that I like. They also can do whatever they like with that info.

It's all good. Personally I'm not concerned about the role you play with the team you're involved with. Anyone that has read any of your posts knows you're passionate about the class.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

How about these m/star
Bathurst bound Mazda 3 V8 breaks cover
http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/02/04/...-breaks-cover/

Yahoo

That's just more of the same... another silhouette car with a spec-engine.

Personally, I'd stop bothering with the cheap knock-offs and bring the original, i.e. V8-Supercars. Now of course they are crazy expensive and you's never get a full grid, but do you need to? I don't think there's anything wrong with multi-class racing, so simply try to get a handful of professionally run and driven V8SCs to be your top class and then make up the rest of the grid with various other locally available modern-ish touring cars. Throw in some Porsche Cup-cars for good measure, perhaps?

I guess it would look somewhat like an updated version of this...

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Not quite promax. I make a call on the weather status and give that info to the team. They then decide what they think is best for the situation. I also gave the same info to a couple more teams that I like. They also can do whatever they like with that info.

While I don’t understand what the rule is trying to achieve, it’s still a rule.
If it covers “people providing any technical services” with a weekend like that, I’d imagine weather is a pretty important technical service (if a good engineer may shave tenths of a second a lap, a good weather call can save tens of seconds)... Certainly if you’ve ever had to pay an invoice from the Met Service, it’s apparently a VERY technical service.

Do I think it’s a stupid rule.... yep.
Do I think you broke the rule.... yep.
Is it another case where some of the rules are applied some of the time... apparently so.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

....which is a doofus rule anyway IMO

Agree. But apparently here lies one of the issues the series has.
Some teams regarding some of the rules as being "doofus" and totally ignoring them, as you have shown.
Different persons have different opinions as to the rules, if the rules were ignored as those persons felt fit, what happens to the class.
Or is the result of this now shown.

[NZSTfan]

Ok, so we are still going on with this are we?

Lets look at the rule that JK kindly posted for us:

17.3.1 Prohibitions:
(1) No Ride of any type is to be also used by any Team or Group in any way for Testing of a Car.
(2) At any Meeting Ride unless specifically permitted by V8ST, Team personnel or other people providing any technical services to a Team are excluded from being a passenger in a Car.


I am in no way 'team personnel' but I guess the sticking point is 'other people providing any technical services to a Team'

Define technical services? This is the moot point, unless there is a glossary of terms that identifies what actually constitutes a technical service. To me, technical services is something to do with car set up; things like starting pressures, damper settings, geometry settings, wheel alignments, aero settings, that kind of thing.

I struggle to put the highly subjective nature of 'weather man' into the category of providing technical services. Its a matter of interpretation. Now unless there is a clear definition of 'technical services' in the rule book, then I have to agree with most of you that this is where problems begin to start. If there is a clear definition of Technical Services that someone can produce (i.e. from a current glossary of terms) then this is one area that I guess a loophole can be found.

But lets not forget here, first and foremost I am sponsor. This allows me and clients to enjoys the fruits of the blessed hot lap experience, which I am sure from my so-called 'essay', was just that, a great and unforgettable experience.

The last couple of days of being part of this discussion has left me wondering just how powerful (for want of a better term) having confidence in what the atmosphere is up to. Have I stumbled across something that I could do which would help a team immensely? If so, what is Bernies number? cos I wouldn't mind jetting all around the world providing Wx info to a F1 team!!

It does make me laugh though when I watch V8SC and all you see is a blotchy 100km radius rain radar. Yes radars are handy, but they get interference from all sorts of things, including scrub fires, mountains etc. I wonder if those teams have someone who is responsible for making Wx judgements? if so, does anyone have Warburtons number?

With regards to the hotlap times: someone before me (I think it was socram?) made a point that I think is bang on. You exit pitlane, go over the start/finish line once, and then return to pits. What constitutes a '80%' lap? Well, at a guess I would say the fact that you only cross the start/finish line once means that your actual lap time (which is always the time taken to cover the distance between start/finish line twice) would fall into 80% of the fastest of the day. If not then every single competitor in this country would get pinged when taking a sponsor for a fang.

So 10-tenths Judge and Jury, am I guilty your honour? and if I am, do I have to spend my time in cell block D at Paremoremo? or can I have it cushty and get me some home detention instead?

But seriously, I am seeing the funny side of this. I did not ever think that some people would actually think that making a Wx observation would be so important. Oh well, lets hope I get it right in the future for teams that I may have an association or affiliation with.

And Chappelli....if you want my advice, I would NEVER engage the MetService for anything, and I certainly wouldn't pay them for information that is free to anyone who knows how to use a computer. You seem like a nice enough fellow, so I will extend the same service to you. If you want to know what is 'likely' to happen in the skies above you, then pm me and I will do my best for you

Right, I'm off to the Warewhare to get me a ball and chain...they are having a sale on them right now....

[GT 86]

If you guys are so hell bent on enforcing this rule then given me an answer to this. I wasn't there but my sources tell me that Tim Edgell has taken his guys in the car before on more than one occasion. On top of this he apparently pinched a wheel in the hot laps from the start finish flag to turn 1 trying to bed brakes in?

Evans got pinged at Taupo $500 for taking a team member for a ride whatever the excuse was.
No one has the balls to enforce the rules and therefore everyone is ignoring them. Im not saying this is cheating but everyone is using their interpretation of the rules for themselves whether it be a performance gain or not. I don't think one car in the pit lane would be 100% correct given there are to many variations in the rules, applied dates for these rules and too many variations in what is supposed to be standard components.

[Ugy]

Sounds like a great series then, whatever rules it has means nothing. Thank god we still have sports with rules.

[socram]

Ignoring the specific V8 Super Tourer rules just for a second, the MSNZ rules regarding Hot Laps are covered by the issued permit as they are classed as part of the meeting. The only way they could be circumvented on a race day would be after the permit had expired (say 6pm for example) and permission could then only be granted by the track manager, not the Clerk of the Course nor the MSNZ Stewards.

I am not a party to the Super Tourer Rules but I have to agree with NZTSfan that unless rules are cast iron solid, there are going to be loopholes and until those loopholes are closed and there are grey areas, there are problems.

What no-one has challenged is 'Why the rule in the first place?' The underlying intent is never enough. It has to be spelled out. One presumes that any team member could (and should) be taken for a hot lap ride outside the specific race meeting permit confines.

If we don't look after sponsors, we lose them. If we don't look after drivers, we lose them. If we don't look after spectators, we lose them. If we don't look after the volunteer officials, we lose them. What is so difficult about that?

[NZSTfan]

Well put socram.
And I have just got off the phone to the team owner who fell about laughing regarding this situation. His comments where 'you are a sponsor, and as such you are entitled to some hotlaps. If it just so happens that you, as a sponsor, can provide us with information on the weather then that's a bonus for us, but we don't act on your information alone, that's what the team is there to do'

So, maybe other teams should be looking for a weather geek too? As it seems to some on here, my weather analysis is a huge benefit to any team.

GT, your comments are bang on too. I have seen MANY infringements of even just the basic rules around pit stops etc. Did they get pinged, no.

So if the class is struggling because no-one is enforcing these rules, then that is a huge area for improvement, and should be looked at right away.

I also think the class is struggling due to other reasons too, one of them being the apparent high cost of replacement parts. An ST engineer said to me that if the teams where simply given tolerances on the parts they could use, then that would allow lower budget teams to participate. He spoke in particular of the front splitter, which costs around $5k before painting etc. They are made from fibre-glass from what I can tell. Ask anyone who deals with fibre-glass, and they will tell you that the splitter is a $1k - $1.5k item tops. So who is clipping the ticket on these items? And that is just one item. Another often talked about is radiators and the cost of these compared to something that is basically identical. I don't know the actual radiator costs sorry, as that is none of my business, but I have been privy to some info that suggests the mark-up on this item alone is quite substantial.

But there is another can of worms. Its a controlled class, so I can see the importance of having a controlled part supplier. But that means that the supplier could put whatever mark-up they want on the products because they have a 'done-deal' and everyone has to buy through them. If the 'give us the tolerances and we'll take it from there' approach is applied, then that gives teams the chances to bend to rules (which I don't mind, innovation is everything in this sport), but if no-one is there to properly scrutineer the cars under this model, then alas, we have another case of 'no-one following the rules' again.

GT, if you find out who those other motorsport criminals are, then I have been given a large cell in D block. They say safety is in numbers, so maybe, if arrested by the fun police, they can share the cell with me. We could talk about motorsport while trying to dig a tunnel out of there....

But seriously, it is clear that in my case, I have not broken any rules because the rule (at this point) is not clear enough. That gives teams plenty of legroom when trying to negotiate their way around things.

Tighten up ST, get good forceful people on the ground and a rulebook that is black and white, and can be enforced by Lady Poppins if need be.

If this rule book has been this open since day 1, then we have a problem, Houston.

[CDM]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

If this rule book has been this open since day 1, then we have a problem, Houston.

Hello???? Please don't tell me its taken you this long to realise that!


To be fair I don't think anyone really cares that you got a hotlap that may have been inside or outside the rules. The point people have been trying to make is exactly that, that the rules for what is supposed to be a "strictly controlled formula" are so loose you can drive a bus through them, and the enforcement of them has been pitiful at best and that, Houston, is why there is a problem

[Goat Boy]

I have to say, that in all the years of intelligent discussions (not all that many to be honest), bickering (lots of that), mud-slinging (lots of that too) and other talk that I have read on this forum, I have never ever found a topic which is quite as boring as the one you guys seem intent on banging on about. Enough already! Meanwhile, I am going to criticise the grammar of an Aussie, which is always fun (refer next post)...