FIA Formula Two / FIA F2 - 2012 Season

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by Wendy Wool

So why hold F2 at Brands?

Interestingly nobody told Mans Grenhagen in European F3 Open your theory, managed some very impressive moves.

A quality driver will always manage to pull a pass, sadly F2 was not loaded with these.

And sadly the last of those moves caused Mans to retire from the 2nd race. To finish first; first you must finish!

[JackN]

Flavio, if you've been watching paddock hill since the '60s then I'd be very surprised if Matheo's is the first or last wheel you will see detached after a big shunt. If you're suggesting that if an F1 car went off in a similar manner it wouldn't lose a wheel then I find that surprising.

As far as Pommer's sponsor is concerned, would you rather he didn't race until he found a sponsor that better suited your socio-political views?

We are all happy to have a conversation about the pros/cons of F2 as a feeder series, but wheeling out the 15 year old / sponsor cheap shots every time does nothing to progress debate.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by dank

Have you seen Tuscher actually race at all this season? Something tells me you haven't, because the performances he has put in round after round have been nothing short of brilliant this year.

Well of course I have, why would I be posting here if I hadn't? I've followed and watched F2 since it's inception.

You are missing the point.

However talented Tuscher is, however high he climbs the ladder, the fact is the rules have been changed, or bent somewhat, to allow children to drive extremely fast racing cars with an element of risk that I personally am not comfortable with. Especially as this has been done specifically with the motive of financial gain for his managers in a "pro" series.

What will you say when a less talented 15 year old is tragically killed? "He died doing what he loved"?

At 15 nobody should be put in that position, which is why it is not allowed under MSA regulations.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

But the loose wheel was what gave me deja vu, it shouldn't still be happening.

i'd like to think it's coincidence rather than a reoccuring issue. i don't visit brands hatch enough to know whether many cars shed wheels either to give a context to the whole thing. but you're right, it shouldn't - if there's no danger to the driver in the car for the wheel to remain connected to the car. presumably there's a compramise between risking the driver and risking the spectators and other competitors.

market forces will make it irrelevant if it's not of any interest to drivers, much like fr2.0uk this season.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by JackN

Flavio, if you've been watching paddock hill since the '60s then I'd be very surprised if Matheo's is the first or last wheel you will see detached after a big shunt. If you're suggesting that if an F1 car went off in a similar manner it wouldn't lose a wheel then I find that surprising.

As far as Pommer's sponsor is concerned, would you rather he didn't race until he found a sponsor that better suited your socio-political views?

We are all happy to have a conversation about the pros/cons of F2 as a feeder series, but wheeling out the 15 year old / sponsor cheap shots every time does nothing to progress debate.

Yes, I am suggesting an F1 car wouldn't have lost a wheel in that shunt. Neither should an F2 car designed by Williams.

Yes, I would rather a driver could find a sponsor rather than a pornographer.

You have a vested interest, I don't. So what have my political views got to do with it? I have said nothing other than a general concern for the welfare of children and a distaste of advertising which would not be allowed anywhere on TV at the time of day it is broadcast.

If you want to stick up for a German pornographer exploiting young girls from his Spanish based website that is entirely your prerogative.

[bella]

i have no vested interest in any of this but the sponsor thing makes me uncomfortable. i think we covered that before though, in detail so let's not get into a discussion about exploitation and so on. and allowing a minor to be able to drive cars like that... well, we covered that too. it's the rules and if he wants to do it and isn't a danger to himself or others - which is the case, it seems - then so be it. it's a bit off on the moral compass side of things but as battles in motorsport go, there's far greater ones to fight.

[Deemun]

I think the writing is pretty much on the wall for this championship. 16 cars with a core of only a dozen or so regular drivers is not sustainable. It only has one more season before it has to renew it's FIA status and with so many competing championships something has to give.

While in theory its a good concept it has for one reason or another lost its attraction to the top drivers. Rememeber Red Bull ran drivers here in 2009. It has become nothing more than a souped up version of FPA.

I think JP could have made it a stronger series this year. Had he offered a scholarship or two he may have attracted a couple of talented, but not cash rich, young single seater stars that would have given the championship more credibility. As it is the talent pool is not that spectacular Tuscher aside.

As for the debate about whether Tuscher should be there or not I like Flavio am not comfortable with it but he has I grant you demonstrated a talent beyond his years; however this may not be the case with the next 15 year old that comes along. Each driver should be assessed on their own merit. To be fair to Tuscher he did impress at the Barcelona test last December. When he moves to GP3 or FR 3.5 next season, as he undoubtedly will, then we will see how good he really is.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Deemun

And sadly the last of those moves caused Mans to retire from the 2nd race. To finish first; first you must finish!

By which time he was already in trouble for overtaking under the safety car.

Sam Dejonghe also crashed out of qualify to line up 21st but gave an entertaining drive for the spectators to come up to 7th.

[Peat]

I think alot of damage was done by the struggle that Andy Soucek had to get a drive in ANYTHING after taking the inaugural title. But the championship hardly had any mega-talents in it to start with....

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by Peat

I think alot of damage was done by the struggle that Andy Soucek had to get a drive in ANYTHING after taking the inaugural title. But the championship hardly had any mega-talents in it to start with....

Agreed but Soucek had already been around for a while anyway. I don't think anyone seriously considers F2 as a serious feeder proposition to F1 which is why it shouldn't be marketed that way. But what it can be is a good progressive step for drivers that have proved that they have the talent but don't have the funding to go to F3 or GP3. Which is why if JP had offered a scholarship or two (which he used to do for the FPA championship winner) he may have found people taking a bit more interest. Would have been good to see the likes of Scott Malvern & Dan Cammish competing here. I'm sure one or two other drivers could be suggested.

It's ironic, though perhaps not surprising, that the only driver to have made any real progress from this championship is it's 2010 runner up, a certain Jolyon Palmer!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Deemun

It's ironic, though perhaps not surprising, that the only driver to have made any real progress from this championship is it's 2010 runner up, a certain Jolyon Palmer!

Ha Ha Ha!

Steady on Deemun or you'll have JackN back on here questioning your political credentials!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Deemun

Which is why if JP had offered a scholarship or two (which he used to do for the FPA championship winner) he may have found people taking a bit more interest. Would have been good to see the likes of Scott Malvern & Dan Cammish competing here.

And what would be the point of helping to fund drivers who want to miss out on one or two intermediate levels they need to do to learn and develop before jumping into a high-level series? Would just make it more of a farce. The series already looks like BARC Renault + from about row 4 down.

[Deemun]

Originally Posted by peebee2

And what would be the point of helping to fund drivers who want to miss out on one or two intermediate levels they need to do to learn and develop before jumping into a high-level series? Would just make it more of a farce. The series already looks like BARC Renault + from about row 4 down.

Don't really see where you are coming from here peebee? Are you suggesting that neither Cammish or Malvern would have been ready for F2? If you are then I have to strongly disagree. Either or both would have been front runners this year.

[Peat]

The problem with the more 'cost-effective' formulae about like F2 and the BARC Formula Renault is that, and this will sound harsh, it is a massive waste of time.

If they are all you can afford, then where are you going to go from there if you do well? The fact that you are in such a series would suggest that you don't have bottomless pockets and you can pretty much forget securing meaningful external sponsorship nowadays.

Look at GP2 - frequented largely by a group of very limited talent, 'my daddy's richer than yours', chinless wonders.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Peat

The problem with the more 'cost-effective' formulae about like F2 and the BARC Formula Renault is that, and this will sound harsh, it is a massive waste of time.

If they are all you can afford, then where are you going to go from there if you do well? The fact that you are in such a series would suggest that you don't have bottomless pockets and you can pretty much forget securing meaningful external sponsorship nowadays.

Look at GP2 - frequented largely by a group of very limited talent, 'my daddy's richer than yours', chinless wonders.

Hi Peat,
I’m Scott Malvern’s dad (oh yes him again) & I can see your point of view but I don’t agree that series such as F2 or FRBARC are a massive waste of time. It has always been a really big challenge for Scott to go racing, even in his karting days, but he has a talent for it and more importantly he enjoys it so why shouldn’t he continue to practice it?
We have always had our feet very firmly planted on terra firma and know that Scott has more chance of walking on the moon than he does of making it to Formula One. We’ve always known that. But once you accept it and set yourself a different set of goals then I think the sport becomes far more of a pleasure than a pain.
So Scott has been competing in BARC FR this season. Of course he would have loved to have tested himself in a higher category but circumstances dictated that it wasn’t possible. But in his view it was important to remain active and go wherever there was a drive available and in that way at least reminds people that he is still around.
Where does he go next? Who knows? As we have seen with his career to date, winning and success provides no guarantee to a continuing career but if he doesn’t keep going then at least he knows it’s not due to any lack of hard work, dedication or desire on his part and he has many other skills and experience to fall back on that should ensure he makes his living from motorsport even if ultimately that isn’t as a driver.
Have a good day
Cheers
Dominic Malvern

[Peat]

Hi Domonic,

Sorry, i could have reigned in my sweeping statement. Fair play to you. Enjoyment is key. If you have the budget available and enjoy doing it then there is nothing else left to be said.

I just find it almost tragic watching some of these lads throwing every last penny at it in the belief that it is their stepping stone to Formula One stardom. But, i guess that's how all these teams survive and it creates/sustains jobs. If they want to spend the money, let them.

The point i was hamfistedly getting to was that the budget leap required to progress from BARC Renault to F3, and F2 to GP2/WSR is unattainable if you are already maxed out.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Peat

Hi Domonic,

Sorry, i could have reigned in my sweeping statement. Fair play to you. Enjoyment is key. If you have the budget available and enjoy doing it then there is nothing else left to be said.

I just find it almost tragic watching some of these lads throwing every last penny at it in the belief that it is their stepping stone to Formula One stardom. But, i guess that's how all these teams survive and it creates/sustains jobs. If they want to spend the money, let them.

The point i was hamfistedly getting to was that the budget leap required to progress from BARC Renault to F3, and F2 to GP2/WSR is unattainable if you are already maxed out.

Thanks Peat & no need to apologise; no offence was taken. Yes I agree with what you are saying & I heard the extreme case of someone recently renting out their own house and living in a caravan in their front garden to keep their son going in a junior formula & of course there is the well documented case of Nigel Mansell selling his house to keep his Formula Ford career alive.

I think you need to be realistic. As I said we know that Scott is highly unlikely to make it to F1 but that is probably true of many drivers far more well heeled than he is. But given the opportunity he would have loved to have run in F2 this season & I believe he would have done a good job and sure it may not have led to anything more but a season in a 500bhp car and driving on some top circuits would still have been fun

[kurski]

Originally Posted by Deemun

I think the writing is pretty much on the wall for this championship. 16 cars with a core of only a dozen or so regular drivers is not sustainable. It only has one more season before it has to renew it's FIA status and with so many competing championships something has to give.

I think it is ridiculous that the Formula 2 can also use the name of the FIA as the series is totally bad and GP2/WSR 3.5 are better series.

Formula 2 champions anyone has not risen up to Formula One series and Soucek is not now drive anywhere when SunRed has not brought another cars according and Stoneman is moved P1 Supertock. If Luciano Bacheta to win the championship I'm not so sure that he will to move GP2 or WSR 3.5 series.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by kurski

I think it is ridiculous that the Formula 2 can also use the name of the FIA as the series is totally bad and GP2/WSR 3.5 are better series.

Formula 2 champions anyone has not risen up to Formula One series and Soucek is not now drive anywhere when SunRed has not brought another cars according and Stoneman is moved P1 Supertock. If Luciano Bacheta to win the championship I'm not so sure that he will to move GP2 or WSR 3.5 series.

F2 is a sanctioned FIA championship & that is why it is entitled to run under the title FIA F2. Max Mosely was responsible for the category being re-activated and Jonathan Palmer's MSV organisation won the tender to run the championship back in 2008.

It is not "totally bad" but just catering for a different market place to GP2 or WSBR. Whether or not, as has already been pointed out, it will continue for much longer in the current climate is another matter. Now that Mosely has left the FIA I don't think that it has many allies and drivers that can afford to compete seem to prefer GP3 which puts them with the European F1 Grand Prix.

But Jonathan Palmer is a shrewd business man if nothing else and I'm sure he is planning his next move. FPA served him well for 13 years all be it with it going through a make over and re-generation or two during that period but essentially it remained the same and then he sold the cars on to a race school abroad. Love him or hate him you have to admire his business acuman.

[Wendy Wool]

Any bets for Super FPA returning in 2014

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Wendy Wool

Any bets for Super FPA returning in 2014

You could well be onto something there!

I take it you were a fan of the Special Saloon Championship that you have adopted your U/N from?

[Peter Cammish]

Originally Posted by kurski

I think it is ridiculous that the Formula 2 can also use the name of the FIA as the series is totally bad and GP2/WSR 3.5 are better series.

Formula 2 champions anyone has not risen up to Formula One series and Soucek is not now drive anywhere when SunRed has not brought another cars according and Stoneman is moved P1 Supertock. If Luciano Bacheta to win the championship I'm not so sure that he will to move GP2 or WSR 3.5 series.

F2 was always my favourite racing series as a lad back in the 70,s I think the whole thing went downhill when the name was dropped for F3000 , it created confusion in the minds of non motorsport people that has never gone away and is even worse with the GP3, GP2 , WSBR names, nobody outside of motorsport understands it and in truth nobody outside motorsport really cares. F2 has to be the name of the step Formula to F1 and you would hope that Gerhard Berger will see this and sort it out for the future but as there are lots of vested interests then perhaps he wont. At the end of the day people on this forum have to understand that the talent pool dimishes the further up motorsport you go as it becomes financially darwinistic (is that a word). I agree with Dom Malvern (I will have to stop doing this) and for sure I would have liked Dan to run in F2 if possible, having said that I had a written contract for GP3 with a team that has won a race this season for 75% of a F2 budget so I am not entirely sure that the motorsport market place is that strong at the moment for all series which should sound warning bells but wont!. one thing I do know is that 75% of a lot of money is still a lot of money and when you approach a sponsor and say GP3 they generally switch off (see above) mind you they always switch off when I approach them!!!!! and yes I wish the Wendy Wools was still going we could build a 5 litre Skoda, better than the current crop of strangled tin tops that trundle around now, Tony Sugden what a great driver he was.

[ivanalesi]

FFfan makes a very, very good point. The F1 dream is impossible even for A LOT better funded drivers than Scott.
You know, if you're a super rich, you're quite probably not very stupid at the first place.
Right now F1 teams behave like junior teams, they give the rides to the highest bidder. They can't be bothered to find sponsorship or properly cut their costs, but they just find it easy to get another Maldonado, Senna, Perez, Petrov or Pic.
So, when Joe Rich gets the proposal for F3, GP3 or GP2, he looks at it also from the parent's perspective and the perspective of a very good businessman. He's asked to pay a huge sum of money for junior to race and even if he's successful, he'll still have to pay in F1 for many years. So, you spend some 8-10mln until junior gets prepared for F1 and then you need to spend at least that much for every year in F1! In other words he would need to spend at least 20-25mln EU(if you put interests it's like 30+) for junior until he goes properly professional and earns 2-3mln salary! Then you read the papers with Ferrari laughing out claims for Alonso's salary, McLaren trying to lower down Hamilton's salary and you start realizing that unless your kid is not only capable of being in F1, but also capable of being a freaking F1 legend superstar, you got no chance of ever returning this huge investment! Moreover, if your kid fails to stay in F1, he'll need to pay to race almost everything else or being lowly paid to race LMP/GT and you will still need to support him to have the life he's used to have.
I can tell you, this reasoning is behind the sporadic appearances or even all together pulling out of racing for quite a few kids with the funding to go all the way to GP2 and even F1.

Basically right now, you need a father or supporter who is just happy for you to be in F1, no matter what is the cost and more importantly - no matter if you'll ever return anything of this huge investment and start living w/o needing his support. There aren't many such rich ppl
Compare the situation with 15-20 years ago and it's the total contrast. I remember Berger was paid $20mln to race for Ferrari, then Schumacher $25mln and others know much, much better how much was spend on their careers up to F1. Even Alesi was paid $8mln at the end of his career by Sauber. Just put together top karting + FFord + F3 + F3000 in the late 80's and I bet it's less than $2mln. Back then you could run a mid grid team with the amount of sponsorship brought by guys like Senna, Petrov or Pic. With Maldonado you'll be a title contender!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by Peter Cammish

F2 was always my favourite racing series as a lad back in the 70,s I think the whole thing went downhill when the name was dropped for F3000 .

You are so right Peter. I still have my programme from the Yellow Pages Thruxton Europe Cup meeting 1970, amongst others, framed here in my office!

I did support the modern F2 from the start but it's now simply not what it could have been. I think some of that is snobbery amongst drivers or parents that would rather be in a dedicated "Team", some of it mistakes made by the promoter, some of it the economic environment but mostly that they have been outmanoeuvred by GP3.

None of that is the fault of the drivers though and I wish them all well.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

You are so right Peter. I still have my programme from the Yellow Pages Thruxton Europe Cup meeting 1970, amongst others, framed here in my office!

I did support the modern F2 from the start but it's now simply not what it could have been. I think some of that is snobbery amongst drivers or parents that would rather be in a dedicated "Team", some of it mistakes made by the promoter, some of it the economic environment but mostly that they have been outmanoeuvred by GP3.

None of that is the fault of the drivers though and I wish them all well.

I agree with both Peter & Flavio. I never understood why they had to change the name back in 1985 from F2 to F3000. So what if they changed the Formula regs & changed the car and made everyone use a Cosworth DFV? They could still have stuck with the F2 name. How many times did they change the F1 regs or the F3 regs for that matter? They still stuck with the same name.

Maybe because F2 still existed then in other parts of the world such as Japan. But in IMO is all it did was confuse the public. People understood the ladder. Drivers climbed up from FF1600 usually to gain their first taste of S&W's in FF2000 & then if they were good enough F3, F2 & F1. Very easy to understand!

Try selling today's model to a potential partner! You need to strat with a Flowchart & a complicated one at that!! But what do I know? I'm just a grumpy old man!!