Brabham BT36

[Andrew Fellowes]

Another data base, the Bridgstone Japanese one, also agrees that Bellco had a BT30 and and a BT36, both cars and Takahara Noritake's BT36 are all out at Fuji 3/5/73.
But it does not happen again.

[Chris Townsend]

Arajuo entered Atlantic races in his BT36 from mid 1973 but only showed up a few times. Does not seem to appear in 1974. [Have checked almost all 1973 programmes] Would suggest the car goes back into play sometime in 74.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Andrew - all the Japanese results databases, mine included, are derived from the JAF website so there's no surprise they all agree. If JAF transcribed a 0 for a 6 or a 5 for a 6, then we're all wrong together. I've added information from RCN (via Bryan or Milan IIRC) to mine for 1972 but I think everyone takes their 1973 data from the JAF site.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Chris thank you so much, because that means that 36-9 did not go to Japan -at least for 1973 anyway and I imagine it's unlikely it would have gone later.

Allen so one typo by JAF and we are all in the poo!

[allenbrown]

Andrew

It would have to be more than one typo. The second BT36 appears consistently for several seasons. The appearance of three Brabhams at Fuji May 1973 is the key point. One of those BT36s could have been an upgraded BT30 but we don't have enough missing BT30s either. I don't yet know enough to speculate whether the Japanese changed the descriptions of their cars after an update the way Croft libre racers did but it's possible.

Given this extra BT36, I think we need to re-examine all the BT36 histories to see if one of the identifications is fragile. Tom my initial read through, Archie Philips car seemed the weakest which is why I asked about it. Was its chassis number mentioned in a race report? How did we work out its number?

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Allen

Phillips chassis number given MN 8.7.71 p.5

Chris

[allenbrown]

Thanks Chris. In that case, I can't understand that second BT36 in Japan.

Anyone know if there's an active historic racing scene in Japan? Have any of these cars resurfaced?

Allen

[David McKinney]

I haven't taken the time to go back through this entire thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating what we already know...
The only BT36 in European historic racing whose origins I know nothing about is a car used in recent years by Christian Geoffroy and before that by Thierry de Mortier. I think it's BT36-20, which perhaps tells us all we need to know!
Takahara's #12 was owned by Mike Freeman in the UK for many years but is now back in Japanese ownership
The Mitsubishi company reportedly owned a BT36 in 2003

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

so forgive me if I'm repeating what we already know...

I post with trepidation these days just waiting for some one to tell me ‘Hey old boy that’s the third time’ Fingers crossed.

I think you can put a question mark against Mike Freeman, I did ring him and he said no, he hasn’t owned a BT36. I can’t confirm that as I have only 1 of my note books with me this morning but I am as close to being positive as there is.

I have one more,

BT36-3 as we know was advertised by Kaydon Racing, 10/8/72 and a month later there is an ad for a BT36 described in an almost identical fashion that would suggest that it is the same car.
A/S Sept.14th p.58 BT36, Continental driver, very little use etc., MRE.



p.s. I now have an address for Noritake Takahara

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

I now have an address for Noritake Takahara

I hope is English is better than it was when he did the Tasman (I don't think he could even say "hello")

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

I hope is English is better than it was when he did the Tasman (I don't think he could even say "hello")

Just 22 years old at the time I think, what a lucky lad to be able to do something like that. I trust his driving was better than his English?

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

I trust his driving was better than his English?

Frankly, no-one took much notice. It was an F5000 series, and no F2 car was going to make much impression.
However, a check of practice times shows he did not disgrace himself against the other F2 cars in the series:

Pukekohe
Dave McConnell (Surtees TS15) 1m 11.4
Ken Smith (March 722) 1m 12.1
Kelvin Cameron (Brabham BT23C) 1m 16.8
Takahara 1m 18.2
Levin
McConnell 45.0
Smith 45.1
Takahara 46.6
Cameron 47.2
Baron Robertson (March 722) 47.4
Wigram
McConnell DNA
Smith DNA
Takahara 1m 14.1
Robertson 1m 15.2
Doug Heney (McLaren M4A) 1m 18.0
Teretonga
Takahara was the only F2 entrant to practise
Surfers Paradise
Graeme Lawrence (Surtees TS15) 1m 12.1
Takahara 1m 15.1

after which he returned to Japan

[allenbrown]

So is this a Brabham BT30 or a BT36?

[David McKinney]

I'm tempted to say "No", but I don't think that's the answer you're looking for

[Andrew Fellowes]

Interesting start to the morning in Oz with that photo!! David sadly I would have to agree.
This is a bit long but says it all. (BT30 style rear wing, -suspension umm who knows!)


The "Colt F2000" that was entered in the 1971 Japanese GP was the last original Mitsubishi formula machine, and it was also the final product of a period of race activities that stretched back to the beginning of the 1960's. The Colt F2000 was based on F2D chassis, and employed the side radiators used in the previous model, but included refinements in aerodynamics. The engine was still based on the R39B, but was now bored-out to a capacity of 2000 cc. This four valve DOHC, in-line, water-cooled unit was the first 2 litre engine that Mitsubishi had ever manufactured and it produced 280 horsepower, which enabled the F2000 to record a top speed of 290 km/h.
The 1971 Japan GP was the first time that the GP title had been held for formula cars and, in addition, the regular meeting date in October was changed to May, swapping with the JAF Grand Prix. It was this year that the Japan GP became the biggest race of the season, in reality as well as in name, when a record race crowd of 75,000 spectators attended the event. So it was an unbelievably proud day for Mitsubishi and Japan when the Colt F2000's entrusted to Kuniomi Nagamatsu and Osamu Masuko left all their rivals, including the touring teams from overseas, in their wake as they scored a 1-2 victory before the passionately excited record crowd. This was Mitsubishi's first ever GP title.

[John Turner]

In which case it shouldn't be on this thread! So is it actually a 'Mitsubishi Colt F2000', Andrew? l'll make it a new thread, probably in the main forum, at this stage!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Yes it is, but I have a note somewhere that Mitsibishi bought a BT30, hence the hope that perhaps it was a Brabham. I assume it was a space frame chassis but oil & water very different. The year makes it almost impossible for a BT36 replica but it could have a lot of BT30 in it.

[Bryan Miller]

The roll-over bar is too square at the top , and short of cutting the whole roll bar out and doing another at about the same height , for no apparent reason makes me believe it is not Brabham based.

[allenbrown]

John

Please don't move it. I've put it here deliberately as part of the discussion of the "extra" Japanese BT36. It has been suggested that the Colt was Brabham-based so could itself have been the basis of the later "BT36".

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Brabham did supply Mitsubishi with kits of parts(no chassis Nos) so please keep these together as its part of the story.

[John Turner]

I'll leave it here for now, and await developments, with interest!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

As to Phil Barak, I spoke to him 18 months ago, he confirmed that he had owned a BT36 but he hadn't a clue what the chassis number was.

& now I can't find him, 2 years ago he ran his Elan from his business at Silverstone but I can't find that either! Sorry Allen I was going to see if he could remember who he bought his car from so we could verify that it was 36-8.

The 2nd BT36 in Japan is so very odd, I can't see that it can be a mistake, typo or otherwise.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

The 2nd BT36 in Japan is so very odd, I can't see that it can be a mistake, typo or otherwise.

I agree. I can see three possibilities: that it was a set of unnumbered parts acquired by Colt as part of their F2 program and later sold on as a complete car, that it was an updated BT30 or that we have been overzealous in filling gaps in our BT36 histories and got a BT35 or a BT30 in there by mistake.

Finding sources in Japan would help a lot. Our good friend driftwood seems to have Japanese contacts; I wonder if he can help.

Allen

[Andrew Fellowes]

Out of the blue I found this;

http://img398.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foro1201qi.jpg
Agosto de 1975 - Ricardo Zunino arriba del Brabham BT36 ex Carlos Reutemann.

[Andrew Fellowes]

BT36-2 ex Graham Hill, 2005