Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts

[John Turner]

Well, even if it was (and I'm not going to check right back!), it's a good reminder and therefore worth repeating! It seems to be the same car shown in Chrisgram's #133 but at a different meeting since it carries a different comp. no.. Good stuff!

[terence]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Thanks db, sorry for the delay in replying. I believe this is the car that chrisgram has reminded us about, earlier in the thread located in New Zealand - Chassis number 018.

There was some discussion about an Arthur Carter owned car possibly no 005 that was raced in France (as a Marlboro car) and could be the one that Bill Griffin ran for a time in 1987. I guess it was resprayed after that?

This is the Schlesser or Rene Metge Supertourisme 'Marlboro' car on show at the 1985 TT. Is this the same car?

Note, it's got the deeper front splitter or airdam which wasn't homolgated for Group A until 1986 IIRC, but had been run on the French car first.

Not to sure on the Red,the photos I have are more of a flouresent than a straight colour.However the airdam could be the same.

[chunterer]

Yes, no worries. I appreciate the awkwardness that reading through a long thread entails for people who have discovered it for the first time - it can take half an hour to read through a 10 plus pager sometimes!!

It's worth having the youtube vid links just to be reminded of that fabulous sound of the 3532cc V8!

Tell you what though, ken clarkes' gone quiet on the history assistance again, his memory can't be that bad can it?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes, no worries. I appreciate the awkwardness that reading through a long thread entails for people who have discovered it for the first time - it can take half an hour to read through a 10 plus pager sometimes!!

It's worth having the youtube vid links just to be reminded of that fabulous sound of the 3532cc V8!

Is this an echo?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Not to sure on the Red,the photos I have are more of a flouresent than a straight colour. However the airdam could be the same.

You're right, the image i've posted hasn't reproduced colours all that well. The image I have shows that the car is definitely Dayglo red and white Marlboro livery.

Also, re the splitter/airdam, I don't know for sure that the French ST car in question definitely sported the same part that was homologated for the latter Group A cars in 1986, but it is very similar?

The question is was the car that Bill Griffin had in '87 this car (chassis 005?) rebuilt to Grp A regs? Or might it have been another car re-shelled with the French 'Marlboro' shell.

[terence]

Unfortunatly I cant remember when Arthur bought it ,but it was in the collection fro several years.

[chrisgram]

It's summer time here in NZ again and the Bastos Rover is likely to have an outing later this month. (Refer my videos on youtude.) Does anyone have any special requests for photos/dvd's? I'm not a professional photographer but am likely to have my camera handy. I'm keen to see #18 up against a Cologne Capri (genuine!) that also lives here in NZ.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Unfortunatly I cant remember when Arthur bought it ,but it was in the collection fro several years.

Any chance you could post a small image on here?

Originally Posted by chrisgram

It's summer time here in NZ again and the Bastos Rover is likely to have an outing later this month. (Refer my videos on youtude.) Does anyone have any special requests for photos/dvd's? I'm not a professional photographer but am likely to have my camera handy. I'm keen to see #18 up against a Cologne Capri (genuine!) that also lives here in NZ.

Good hope the car continues to impress over there. A Grp A Vitesse v a Grp 2 Capri would be quite a good match up, although I suspect the more modern car would win out?

Any news from the Vitess's exploits at the event and perhaps news of any other interesting Grp A cars you come across would be welcome.

[Charlie123]

Originally Posted by A Quartermaine

History on the Dennis Leech car
Charlie, my father owned this car during the early 90's he purchased it from Nick Humphrey referenced further back in this discussion forum. The history i know is summarised below:

The car was reshelled by Dennis in the late 80's, that shell was then destroyed by Nick at Mallory park. A new shell was prepared in pure white with the underside painted blue. Nick then sold the car to my father with buckets and buckets of spare TWR components - all very well engineered.

The car did not run well at firs,t it ate Crown wheels regularly and the engine suffered from problems - when extracted the block had been ARALDITED together as mentioned in an earlier discussion. The engine was rebuild and a dry sump system fitted.

The car was used in Modified saloons against Brian Chatfield and the other BASTOS car mentioned, so that makes 3 in one series in the early 90s.as i dont believe the derek hale car was a TWR car. It was also used in thunder saloons but was a little underpowered by comparison to some of the more exotic machines. In order to help it along we did fix perspex and fibreglass panels (all the steel panels and glass were retained).

The car was sold on in 93/4 during our ownership it was always white an ran with sponsorship from ESTDALE. It was a fabulous car that was very regretfully sold. I have some pictures floating around that i will post in due course.

Best wishes
Adam Quartermaine

Adam,

If you do have pictures of the car as it was before and any other information, we would be glad to receive it, you can either post it here or send to charlie1williams@hotmail.com . That would be excellent. Or if it requires sending by post then get in touch and I can give you an address.

We'll be racing in the Heritage GT again this year alongside A1GP, BTCC, WTCC, F3/GT if anyone is interested. The car is currently having a bit of a winter freshen up. Should be fun, especially at Spa in October. Anyone know what times they were doing round Spa in 85/86? The track has been changed slightly a couple of times since, but it would be interesting to know anyway

Cheers

Charlie

[A Quartermaine]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

I beleive this is an '89 Modsaloon race at Brands. The car is Chassis no 20, the last Group 'A' Rover SD1 built, being driven I beleive by Kevin ------ from Leicester. After this it was bought by Arthur Carter for his collection, (along with Chassis no 5), where it sat until it was bought in January 2005 by a businessman from Surrey who at that time owned the car now owned by Charles Williams, which I rebuilt 2004/5 which started life as chassis no 17, won the TT @ Silverstone in '85, then won Nogaro, then was wrecked at Zolder, first corner, first lap by Uncle Tom. Chassis no 20 has now been rebuilt by myself & is used for track days & shows.

More later.

Ken / Charlie

The picture is the car we owned during the late 80's and it is the ex leech car, which was reshelled etc. I cant find copies of the FIA paperwork for the chassis number and other details but the easiest way to identify this car is the underside. When is was reshelled (2nd time) the chassis interior and exterior were painted ford diamond white and the underside navy blue.
I do have a few pictures from thunder and mod saloons floating around and will dig them out in due course.

Best wishes,
Adam

[TWR ROVER]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes, no worries. I appreciate the awkwardness that reading through a long thread entails for people who have discovered it for the first time - it can take half an hour to read through a 10 plus pager sometimes!!

It's worth having the youtube vid links just to be reminded of that fabulous sound of the 3532cc V8!

Tell you what though, ken clarkes' gone quiet on the history assistance again, his memory can't be that bad can it?

hi from New Zealand,came across this thread by accident,very interesting,the identity and history of the different TWR Rovers is certainly a little challenging.
A few years ago i accquired chassis #18,one of the four "evolution" cars(different spliter,rear end set up and twin plenum with Zytec)that competed in the ETC 1985/86 in Bastos /Texaco livery,competition number 7.
This car was brought to NZ by Allan Scott(former chief engine man for TWR)and both Allan and i continue to race in in classic and historic group A around NZ.
Just this last weekend was the Dunedin street race (part of the southern festival of speed)and we were fortunate to have the Rover out with Australian touring car ace Jim Richards who was campaigning a very beautiful group A BMW 635...a great reinactment of bygone days and a fabulous era in motorsport.
Late last year i purchased chassis#5(that was the one from the Arthur Carter collection)and when it arrived in NZ we started a full and meticulous restoration and it will be soon back on the race tracks too.Its a great car in superb condition and the true history that we found under all the paint is indeed interesting.....

[chunterer]

Welcome 'TWR ROVER'
We look forward to your continued participation in this thread and of course throughout Ten-Tenths in general.

I guess no 18, the car you own with Allan Scott is the car that 'chrisgram' has kindly linked to images on youtube. Fabulous to see it running and hear that sound.

The other car you own sounds very interesting indeed. No 5 is one of many that we are keen to confirm the history of, as depending on whom is posting info on here could be 2 or 3 different cars!

I would be very keen to learn more from you about 'what you found under all the paint.'

Does the history you have about it confirm that it is originally a 1983/84 BTCC car or is it this French 'Marlboro' car? Or something else entirely??!!

Please tell us more!

[TWR ROVER]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Welcome 'TWR ROVER'
We look forward to your continued participation in this thread and of course throughout Ten-Tenths in general.

I guess no 18, the car you own with Allan Scott is the car that 'chrisgram' has kindly linked to images on youtube. Fabulous to see it running and hear that sound.

The other car you own sounds very interesting indeed. No 5 is one of many that we are keen to confirm the history of, as depending on whom is posting info on here could be 2 or 3 different cars!

I would be very keen to learn more from you about 'what you found under all the paint.'

Does the history you have about it confirm that it is originally a 1983/84 BTCC car or is it this French 'Marlboro' car? Or something else entirely??!!

Please tell us more!

yes #18 is the car chrisgram has posted a video of(have had time to read some of this thread now)guess i must have run into Chris at the track but i didnt know he was so interesred in Rovers.Actually wherever we take it in NZ ,the Bastos car is a real crowd favourite,must be the sound !, and we campaign it pretty hard at times...shes a great old girl.
The Bastos car is really original and immaculate too...still in her 24hr Spa specification and setup,still without a major accident despite those fairly hectic two ETC years,and still with the original hand painted livery...theres not a sticker on it.
Car #5 is a very exciting project and i need to know more about this cars precise history so we can return it to as original as raced condition and appearance.(it seems some of the possibilities thus far mentioned on some of this thread maybe correct and some are obviuosly not).
I purchased the car via an agent representing Artur Carter(found out about it by accident actually ,it was sitting in the corner of a photo of some of the other cars in his collection that came to NZ,and as it was in Bastos colours i got told about it).We already knew then that #5 could not be a Bastos car and indeed when it arrived and we put it beside #18 its obvious the Bastos livery was done probably from photos and the car was trying to represent something it isnt.(dont know why?)
Whilst the temptation was to put the car in the correct Bastos livery and make it identical to #18,and therefore run two againest each other as a two car team,thats not the correct thing to do here.
Before buying the car we always had a theory that this car was likely the French touring car champion (1983 or 1984?i cant remember)of Jean Loius Schlesser,run by TWR with factory backing (presumably to enhance the image of the SD1 on the continent?)sponsored by Malboro.
As it worked out this seems to be what the car is...stripped right back properly we could first see the dayglo red malboro paint,particually when the windows were removed,front rear and rear side,the paint is preserved under neath the window edges in perfect order and in true non faded colour.Also on the roof of the car we can see the faint outline of J L SCHLESSER still insribed.On the door resemblance of competition number 3.
So we then had some good markings to indicate how to repaint the car...we could get the dayglo red and the white to meet precisely at the vee on the bonnet and the rakes up the sides...we could also get the colour right althou finding the correct paint is a bit of a mission(out of Austrailia in the end,its a sort of orange/red floro mix as you will know).
The car is now repainted in its base colours and we are busy handpainting the Malboro and other lettering...its going to look fantasic and you wont miss it even thru the mist and fog!(not that we have any of that out here in NZ).
What im keen to find out is...1/ did this car have any competition life before J L Schlesser or was it prepared particually for the French ST?(note it would seem from the car that the Malboro paint scheme was present right from the ealy preparation and conversion to a Group A car as it goes thru the window seals and nothing but base white underneath).
2/ did any one else compete with it for TWR and if so who ,when and where?did the car ever run in any other colours eg Mobil Bathhurst?
3/what was the history of the car after TWR sold it and when did they sell it and to whom?who were the next owner(s )and did it compete before being sold to Arthur Carter?(note omeone at sometime has put a late TWR twin plenum engine in #5 as thats what its got now(same as Bastos car) and in its TWR days it would has had a single plenum engine)however other french groupA differences that those rules allowed are still correct eg front air dam etc.)
4/finally we are desparatly seeking some photos of the car to get the detail right.Any would be appreciated in any livery(particuarly Malboro) and from any angle...for example we have got nothing showing rear of the car.My email is allan@nicholsgroup.co.nz.
regards Allan (TWR ROVER).

[chunterer]

Allan,

Thanks for all this, very very interesting.

I may have posted a Marlboro image earlier in the thread (http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=162) and I would strongly suggest that this is the car you are talking about (005). This was taken at the TT in 1985 and I believe is the car that 'Schless' won the French ST title with that season. Bizarrely I was on a school trip to France earlier that year and the coach drove past a back street Austin Rover dealer and I swear I saw it parked outside there too!!

As chassis 004 has been confirmed as a 1984 Sanyo (and later Bathurst Mobil) car by David Carvell who campiagned that car in 1987 as a privateer in BTCC, I had assumed that 005 was the sister Sanyo car. Your info is pointing in a different direction though!

I can confirm (sadly no pics) that a Marlboro Dayglo/White liveried Vitesse ran in later rounds of the 1987 BTCC driven by club BMW competitor Bill Griffin from the Swindon area. It was definitely at the final Silverstone round where it did a few laps before pulling off into the pitlane.

My assumption is that this is your car which must've been converted from French ST spec. Either that, or it was another re-shelled with the Marlboro shell. I reckon the Griffin's bought or leased the car from TWR or something before it was then sold on again in 1988 and repainted in the mock Bastos colours you refer to. There's even some story that Gerry Marshall owned it later on as well?

I have been trying to get someone from the Griffin family (don't think related to Chris Griffin, a classic SD1 racer who postes on here) to come on and talk a bit about this car but so far no luck. It's a key piece of the history jigsaw though!!

I don't know if you already know about it, there also a picture of a Marlboro liveried car on a ARG Rover enthusiast site. It's in a competition section of the Rover SD1 history along with Bastos, Sanyo and the 84 Gitanes car. I'm assuming it's the same car you've now got.

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/

I hope this info helps you a bit more and lets also hope we can get some more people from the mid 80's to help us out. Ken Clarke who was probably a close working colleague of Allan Scott back then has said he will rack his brains to try and help us, but there must be other people.

Anyone know Jeff Allam?!!

[Chris Griffin]

Originally Posted by chunterer

...I have been trying to get someone from the Griffin family (don't think related to Chris Griffin, a classic SD1 racer who postes on here) to come on and talk a bit about this car but so far no luck. It's a key piece of the history jigsaw though!!

Nothing to do with me Chunters, unfortunately.

I'm sure Ken Clarke was in touch with Jeff Allum a while back. A round about the time Uncle Tom sold his collection. Didn't Jeff buy one of the GpA cars?

[chunterer]

I thought so Chris! Thanks for confirming though

Yes Jeff bought 019 which until the Kevin Eaton car cropped up on here earlier (020?) was thought to be the last one I think.

I understand that Jeff has the car residing in his dealership?

I wonder if anyone could tempt him into registering, I bet he'd find this thread amazing!!

[bigears]

I know it is a long shot but is there any way I can contact Trevor Lewis whose his team, Trevor Lewis Racing was based in Solihull (near Birmingham) in the UK?

He is the very driver that drove the Vitesse at the Modified Saloon Championship race at the Birmingham Superprix with an onboard camera in 1987.

[TWR ROVER]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Allan,

Thanks for all this, very very interesting.

I may have posted a Marlboro image earlier in the thread (http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=162) and I would strongly suggest that this is the car you are talking about (005). This was taken at the TT in 1985 and I believe is the car that 'Schless' won the French ST title with that season. Bizarrely I was on a school trip to France earlier that year and the coach drove past a back street Austin Rover dealer and I swear I saw it parked outside there too!!

As chassis 004 has been confirmed as a 1984 Sanyo (and later Bathurst Mobil) car by David Carvell who campiagned that car in 1987 as a privateer in BTCC, I had assumed that 005 was the sister Sanyo car. Your info is pointing in a different direction though!

I can confirm (sadly no pics) that a Marlboro Dayglo/White liveried Vitesse ran in later rounds of the 1987 BTCC driven by club BMW competitor Bill Griffin from the Swindon area. It was definitely at the final Silverstone round where it did a few laps before pulling off into the pitlane.

My assumption is that this is your car which must've been converted from French ST spec. Either that, or it was another re-shelled with the Marlboro shell. I reckon the Griffin's bought or leased the car from TWR or something before it was then sold on again in 1988 and repainted in the mock Bastos colours you refer to. There's even some story that Gerry Marshall owned it later on as well?

I have been trying to get someone from the Griffin family (don't think related to Chris Griffin, a classic SD1 racer who postes on here) to come on and talk a bit about this car but so far no luck. It's a key piece of the history jigsaw though!!

I don't know if you already know about it, there also a picture of a Marlboro liveried car on a ARG Rover enthusiast site. It's in a competition section of the Rover SD1 history along with Bastos, Sanyo and the 84 Gitanes car. I'm assuming it's the same car you've now got.

http://www.austin-rover.co.uk/

I hope this info helps you a bit more and lets also hope we can get some more people from the mid 80's to help us out. Ken Clarke who was probably a close working colleague of Allan Scott back then has said he will rack his brains to try and help us, but there must be other people.

Anyone know Jeff Allam?!!

thanks for that ...the really interesting thing is do now is determine if the Malboro car pictured in your thread(showing comp no.3) is the same car as is pictured on the austin-rover website(comp no. 5)....i think they may appear to be the same car but actually are different.
Compare the two photos closely....one has a white interior and roll cage (car 3),the other black(my malboro car is black inside and always has been we think).
on the other hand my car has the front spoiler complete with dayglo paint underneath,and the cooling holes and the steel lip shown on car 3...however the boot spoiler on my car is as in car 5 and not the one allowed under french rules as shown on car 3 ...other diferences in these two cars are numerous grapics and sponsor details ...all explainable as these things did change as cars got freshened up however the main Malboro signage on each car is definately in a different position across the doors.
Was there two Malboro cars and if so which one is which chassis number and where did each compete and who were the drivers?....

[TWR ROVER]

[quote=TWR ROVER]thanks for that ...the really interesting thing is do now is determine if the Malboro car pictured in your thread(showing comp no.3) is the same car as is pictured on the austin-rover website(comp no. 5)....i think they may appear to be the same car but actually are different.
Compare the two photos closely....one has a white interior and roll cage (car 3),the other black(my malboro car is black inside and always has been we think).
on the other hand my car has the front spoiler complete with dayglo paint underneath,and the cooling holes and the steel lip shown on car 3...however the boot spoiler on my car is as in car 5 and not the one allowed under french rules as shown on car 3 ...other diferences in these two cars are numerous grapics and sponsor details ...all explainable as these things did change as cars got freshened up however the main Malboro signage on each car is definately in a different position across the doors.
Was there two Malboro cars and if so which one is which chassis number and where did each compete and who were the drivers?....[also it was definately Gerry Marshall who either owned or campaigned (or both) the car i have./quote]

[TWR ROVER]

opps ,need to work out how to use this properly......what i meant to say was that Gerry Marshall definately owned or campaigned (or both) 005

[chunterer]

Allan judging by what you say the image I posted of the French car in '85 TT paddock had black interior (can't really tell from the image but I'm sure it did).

This would suggest it's yours (005)?

Therefore the car in the ARG tribute site link which as you say is white inside might well be another car.

Another thought I had is that another French driver Rene Metge shared the '83 TT winning Hepolite car with 'Soperman' so is there a chance that Metge then took that car back to France with him and had it modified to French ST spec and re-painted Dayglo/White? Ironically this car has number 3 on the side but I reckon that one of the '83 BTCC cars that Soper drove and was the TT winner is likely to have been 001, 2 or 3

It's clearly going to be tricky to confirm things, but the permutations partly make this thread so entertaining!

What will help, and I don't want to keep stating the obvious, is if we can get the right people from the period to hear about this thread and provide vital clues. We can but hope!!

[Sarnie]

Have just had a look through my pics and uploaded a few Rover's which may or may not help....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90009468@N00/

Wasn't Jaimes Baker's Toyo Super Road Saloon Vitesse an ex ICS car, I seem to remember you could still see ICS on the roof under the paint
& that #11 car of Kevin Eaton looks very tidy, an ex GrpA ???

If you like Rover's and Capri's I've just started to upload some of my vid's on Youtube, lots more to follow as I have about 40 hrs of footage.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyg2Uo_EMhE

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Sarnie

Have just had a look through my pics and uploaded a few Rover's which may or may not help....
http://www.flickr.com/photos/90009468@N00/

Wasn't Jaimes Baker's Toyo Super Road Saloon Vitesse an ex ICS car, I seem to remember you could still see ICS on the roof under the paint
& that #11 car of Kevin Eaton looks very tidy, an ex GrpA ???

If you like Rover's and Capri's I've just started to upload some of my vid's on Youtube, lots more to follow as I have about 40 hrs of footage.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyg2Uo_EMhE

Thanks for the nice pictures. Actually, I'd forgotten that Kevin Eaton had painted over the Bastos colours (maybe this was later on). Still, this'll help anyone trying to identify this particular car if they now have it.
A great thread this one, let's keep it going.

[TWR ROVER]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Allan judging by what you say the image I posted of the French car in '85 TT paddock had black interior (can't really tell from the image but I'm sure it did).

This would suggest it's yours (005)?

Therefore the car in the ARG tribute site link which as you say is white inside might well be another car.

Another thought I had is that another French driver Rene Metge shared the '83 TT winning Hepolite car with 'Soperman' so is there a chance that Metge then took that car back to France with him and had it modified to French ST spec and re-painted Dayglo/White? Ironically this car has number 3 on the side but I reckon that one of the '83 BTCC cars that Soper drove and was the TT winner is likely to have been 001, 2 or 3

It's clearly going to be tricky to confirm things, but the permutations partly make this thread so entertaining!

What will help, and I don't want to keep stating the obvious, is if we can get the right people from the period to hear about this thread and provide vital clues. We can but hope!!

other way around ....the car on the Austin-rover website has the black interior and roll cage...the one you posted from the 85 TT pit has a white interior and roll cage(thats a photo that is in a few books and it is definately the 84 french ST champion car of JLSchsessler) and we are 90% sure that this is the car we are restoring...and indeed the two pictures maybe of the same car.However they also may not be and chassis 005 maybe the other car....whats got us a little puzzled is chassis #005 appears to have never had any white paint in the interior...(suppose someone could have chemically stripped it at some stage),ones thing is for sure though its definately had the dayglo pink most if not all of its life so was probably built as a marlboro car?The question remains ,how many Marlboro cars raced in France ,when and by whom?
We need an earlier contributer Terence Bowler? to cast some light on the previous history of 005 ,as he obviously altered the car to its mock bastos colours when he was working for the cars previous owner to me,Arthur Carter.
Also of interest is that when we got the car to NZ ,despite it obviously not have been run for many years,it started quite readily!

[TWR ROVER]

opps,spelling, Terence Bower ,i meant.Would be interesting to hear from you.