Panoz to return to LMP1

[bjwedgemtu]

I think it could be done. Engineers are weird people, i know because i'm going to school to be one. If we want to build something then it will be built. If panoz comes out with an front engine LMP1 i'm sure it will be a very well built piece of machinery

[joeb]

I was wondering how much work would have to be done to the old car to make it eligible in the P1 rules? I know the rear wing would have to be redone, but how about other aspects that I can't think of? I checked Mike's site, and the physical size of the car seems to be within bounds, but what else would it need to be "competitive" with the likes of Autocon and Intersport?

[Cuttlefish]

Well, for one thing, it would need to have the undertray and splitter completely redone to comply with the 2004 regulations.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by bjwedgemtu

I think it could be done. Engineers are weird people, i know because i'm going to school to be one. If we want to build something then it will be built. If panoz comes out with an front engine LMP1 i'm sure it will be a very well built piece of machinery

Like the LMP07 was?

[bjwedgemtu]

the LMP07 was not the fastest car but had some improvements over the LMP1...which is the reason it was built.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by bjwedgemtu

the LMP07 was not the fastest car but had some improvements over the LMP1...which is the reason it was built.

in theory anyway.. shame theory doesn't always work out in real life.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by Cuttlefish

Well, for one thing, it would need to have the undertray and splitter completely redone to comply with the 2004 regulations.

Nor could it pass a crash test. (It didn't the first time, except for some "slight-of-hand" that won't be allowed this time around.)

[Flyin Ryan]

No love for my catamaran idea?

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

No love for my catamaran idea?

I should have replied earlier to your catamaran post, sorry. I can't really visualise what you mean by it so a sketch would be handy.

[yamato]

I think he means with the driver in one of the side pods????

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

No love for my catamaran idea?

No ..... you should be burned alive for conjuring up such revolting and repugnant images in ones mind !!!

[courageous]

if they are just thinking of bolstering alms grids, then they could just add a prototype invitational class & let non-aco legal cars run (if they performance balanced them to fill the gt1 void then i doubt anybody would object)

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Ted bennett

I should have replied earlier to your catamaran post, sorry. I can't really visualise what you mean by it so a sketch would be handy.

Not necessarily for you. I'm from the coast so I know what it is but I don't know if everyone does. A catamaran is a double hull boat where each hull is on the sides and provides the main structural support for the inner part. On most catamarans, there's nothing in the middle touching the water and what ones do is usually less structural and more ascetic.

For a racecar, as I'm visualizing it in my head, your "hulls" would be the width of the tires and would run down the full length of the cars. That structure then would hold the central structure of the driver, cockpit, engine, and transmission. The connections between the side hulls and the cockpit/engine/transmission could be analogous to suspension A-arms. I suppose in a way it'd have a passing resemblance to an open wheel car/single-seater, just with covered tires and running hulls down the side. The reason I think this has potential is because of all the tricks you could do in regards to air handling after Mulsanne Mike was saying that was one of the inherent difficulties of roadsters. You don't have to flow the air over the car, you can instead just have the air go right on by and not hit anything, reducing your frontal friction coefficient, and what air you can capture you could have a good-sized tunnel by having no car structure there, and that will direct it to the rear wing.

I suppose the cars in a way now are catamarans (the only things touching the ground are the tires), but I was thinking more in visual terms for reasons of air flow. I'll have to see if I can make a picture on my ProE and post it here.

Potential problems:

-Can the central weight be held up by the sides? In an oval car you might be able to shift the weight more toward the car's left, but in a road racing car the weight would have to be in a more neutral position. This would also have to have a smaller engine that would likely be turbocharged.
-Crash test. If there's a well-designed frame, this can be done though I think.
-How much air does it really help direct?
-Depends on design, but could be a higher cg.

[Hugewally]

Not like this catamaran car then?

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-07-04-010.jpg

[AndrewF31]

lol, that is one funny looking car.

Aren't there landspeed record cars that look like catamarans?

[MulsanneMike]

Well to do the catamaran concept means a full width monocoque which means an inability to move air efficiently through the car. Sure, you could put air through the center part but you forget, you have an engine up front that precludes this from happening. Additionally, while I can't see anything in the regulations that states a maximum distance laterally (there is a minimum) for the width of the safety structures, I think the ACO would take issue with the driver effectively being the first thing that would be hit in a side impact collision.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Well to do the catamaran concept means a full width monocoque which means an inability to move air efficiently through the car. Sure, you could put air through the center part but you forget, you have an engine up front that precludes this from happening.

No. Not through. Over and under. The arms that connect the side hulls to the central body would be thin and flat and take up only as much space length-wise as necessary structurally.

Additionally, while I can't see anything in the regulations that states a maximum distance laterally (there is a minimum) for the width of the safety structures, I think the ACO would take issue with the driver effectively being the first thing that would be hit in a side impact collision.

The hulls would have to be structurally better to be able to support the central weight, and the driver and cockpit crash structure would be located centrally. Once I finish my current project, I'll see if I can do a concept on ProE and pass to you. Nothing will come of it, it's just for giggles.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

No. Not through. Over and under. The arms that connect the side hulls to the central body would be thin and flat and take up only as much space length-wise as necessary structurally.



The hulls would have to be structurally better to be able to support the central weight, and the driver and cockpit crash structure would be located centrally. Once I finish my current project, I'll see if I can do a concept on ProE and pass to you. Nothing will come of it, it's just for giggles.

I understand your idea, and thought of it myself when the rumor was first introduced at Sebring. I did a quick look at the old LMP and my drawing and realized that the concept in some way already was used in the LMP, and that the engine and driver monoque takes up too much room the allow efficient air to pass thru. Remember there must be room for "2" people in the car!

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

No. Not through. Over and under. The arms that connect the side hulls to the central body would be thin and flat and take up only as much space length-wise as necessary structurally.

How much room do you think is between the bottom of the tub and the floor pan?

Remember, you want to keep the CG as low as possible...

[Flyin Ryan]

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Looking from Top, very rough

*** Rear wing
||| Side hulls (tires underneath)
{{{ Cockpit
+++ Roll hoop structure behind driver
=== Driveshafts
xxx Transmission
vvv Engine
\\\/// Represents cowling that goes over engine/transmission and guides the air to the side of the cockpit
<<>> The central weight support, only thick enough to support the cars weight, does not cover the full height of the car, for fun we can have louvres on top or it can guide the air in a certain way to the rear wing
--- Empty space
%%% Front splitter, air cover for front driveshafts and transmission

[joeb]

so if there is a P1 Panoz run by PTG next year I guess that is the end of the GT2?

[Hugewally]

Its a sad turn of events to see that an old car will be brought forward...

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

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So the idea would be to have three 'hulls', one each covering the left/right wheels, and one in the center housing the driver and drivetrain - with as little structure as possible in the two channels in between? Interesting, but what about cooling? I guess that channel area on conventional cars is normally used for the radiators.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by joeb

so if there is a P1 Panoz run by PTG next year I guess that is the end of the GT2?

Is that the latest rumour ?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

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xxx Transmission
vvv Engine

You want the transmission before the engine!?. How would you make that work with rear wheel drive.
Besides, with all that empty space, where would you generate downforce for the front?.
But like i wrote earlier, there really isn't any space for the air to run thru sufficiently, look at how little room Audi was able to make around the rear wheels on the R15.