Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3

[Adam43]

There can be only one reason why the Vettel to Webber gap increases this year. Vettel is younger, still hasn't reached his peak so it will be because Red Bull are favouring him.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by E.B

Personally I see the gap between Vettel and Webber's performances widening this year. Just a hunch. But one I am reasonably confident of.

I tend to agree, BUT webber seemed to have Vettel's measure in the middle of last season, until he allegedly fell of his mountain bike again and hurt himself. If true, and if he has learned how to ride the bloody thing now he may be a force to be reckoned with. All ifs and buts I know however it could still be an interesting season between the two.
There doesn't seem much hope of anyone else other than Alonso having much of a say in the championship.

[OZ_HCR32]

Vettel has outperformed Webber two years in a row in the same car. We can sight injuries in season 1, but the fact is Vettel has done the job more often then Webber and it is a brave man to wager otherwise for 2011.

But, the way I am shaping up this year, I see it as perhaps Webber's best chance of beating Vettel yet....seems that is the opposite thinking to most.

So consider... that Webber seemed to have a stronger mid season last year. Story goes Sebs car wasnt quite right and needed repairs once they had identified the fault. Fair enough, but. A story broke later in the year by James Allen that the blown diffuser favoured Webber who was more adaptable to the technique required to drive the car to its full potential. When they updated engine tuning and electronics it made the cars easier to drive it appears as though Vettel again resumed the fractional speed advantage he enjoys over Webber.

So perhaps Webber is a little more adaptable to driving in a slightly wider window of performance then Seb. This could be an advantage of the wing and KERS setup of the car means that in order to get the best over a race distance, the car is a little compromised or difficult in its handling.

There are only a few occassions so you have to be careful not to read too much into those occassions, but Seb has been in tyre trouble more often then Webber. Monaco 2009, Canada 2010...Webber was nowhere in OZ GP 2009 but Vettel did run out of tyre and come under attack from Kubica.

Then i read Vettels recent comments on German television channel Servus TV
about the 2011 tyres..."The problem is the tyres wear down too fast," ....
"They are only good for 16 or 17 laps, then they start to break up and are ruined, then the driver doesn't have a chance. ... "The feeling when driving is different and that is a pity for us."

There is enough variables in the 2011 season that I can see it will be tough for any of the top guys to assert any dominance on the season.

No doubt that will be the same for all the drivers, but I can see how these variables may tip the scales in the Button - Hamilton battle and perhaps in the Webber - Vettel battle

[AUSRSR]

Could go either way, as stated, I think it'll who can adapt to the new cars, new tyres, new regs the best..

Counting down the days!

[E.B]

The reality is that regardless of what the actual point score read, Webber was in fact never ahead of Vettel due to his driving, when you take into account Vettel lost over 60 points in the car letting him down,..... Mark lost zero points to unreliability of the car.

That is not to say that Mark did not outperform Seb at all, as he did at Spain and Monaco (the races oddly enough when Seb's car had the chassis problem.

They both lost points due to their own errors, Mark perhaps having made a few more errors than Seb, though not much in it.

Last year is done and dusted and we have all commented throughout the season, but out of 19 races I can only think of maybe 5 where Mark perhaps truly outperformed Seb. About the same as Button did over Hamilton.

[OZ_HCR32]

Not sure you can say Webber lost 0 points due to reliability problems. Giving away a front row grid in Canada due to gearbox problems no doubt cost him points. And also the electric problem on the line at Spa most likely cost him a win rather then 2nd behind Hamo. But the take away is his problems still meant strong race finishes, ie Germany with oil pickup problems, Brazil with cooling problems where as Seb had two DNFs

But assuming the following points:

- Seb no car problems for in Bahrain or OZ GPs giving him the wins in the first 3 GPs. (this moves Webber down a place in OZ so from 2 pts to 1pt)
- Assuming Seb held status quo behind Webber in Turkey and finished second to Webbers first.
- Assume Webber didnt have the gearbox problem in Canada and suffer the grid penalty, giving him the track position to race without risky long strategy...likely win to Webber. (remember he got on the front row on the hard tyres so could have just raced for track position and covered the others)
- Webber no electric gremlins in Spa so he could have covered Hamilton in the race for the win rather then wrestling back through the pack.

If you are going to say no mechanical problems or crash into one another...then Webber after Spa would have had 210 points vs Sebs 205.

The only reason I took note of that is that it proves what is in my eyes Webber's main problem. He never seems to start a season strongly, his starts to seasons are littered with missed opportunities...even back in his Williams days. It usually takes him to Malaysia to start to come on. To me that is his biggest weakness, he never gets a result in the first few races. It means even if both had clean seasons, you are right in saying that Vettel would have led for most of the season...but Webber would have been ahead on one occassion and that is after Spa. SO was more consistant points scorer through the bulk of the season and pulled back some of the defecit from his bad start.

So even with his mistakes and Sebs hiccups, his weak start to the year (8th, 9th, 2nd and 8th) means he gave away so many points. He needed to ensure those results were all top 3!

And yes....lol we need to get 2011 under way so i dont keep going over the past ... and trying to re-write it

[Mr V]

I'm sure i'll get laughed off the board here but the way i see it is simple. Vettel had 62-66 points worth of failures to Mark's none, yet still beat him by 14 points. That's 77-80 points (this doesn't account for points that Mark would have lost had Seb finished) difference. That to me is the true difference between them.

[Knowlesy]

That Vettel is a car breaker?

[E.B]

Seb's job is to drive the car as hard and fast as he is able. Red Bull's job is to make a car to cope.

As for car breaker, I reckon Mark did the best job of breaking a car that we have seen for many a race........by anyone.








At Valencia.
Or was that just a low downforce setup problem?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by E.B

As for car breaker, I reckon Mark did the best job of breaking a car that we have seen for many a race........by anyone.

And Vettel doesn't waste his time by taking out or trying to take out cars that are not a threat in the championship, so he's also a smarter thinker when it comes to crashing cars.

[E.B]

If you had quoted my full comment you would have been very aware that my post was very clearly very tongue in cheek, complete with smileys to ensure it could not be taken as anything other than a bit of humour.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm sure i'll get laughed off the board here but the way i see it is simple. Vettel had 62-66 points worth of failures to Mark's none, yet still beat him by 14 points. That's 77-80 points (this doesn't account for points that Mark would have lost had Seb finished) difference. That to me is the true difference between them.

Ding, ding, ding, ding......we have a WINNER!
No laughing matter Mr V, that's the 'actual' difference between their abilities.

If Webber thinks he's as good as Vettel, why has he never appeared at the Race of Champions?.......perfect way to prove it..........or does it always fall one week after his yearly mountain bike stack

[Knowlesy]

I wouldn't call the Race Of Champions an accurate barometer of anything. Kovalainen won it once!

[wnut]

Vettel was in a class of his own at the end of last season.

Massive pressure, way behind in the championship and he delivered at the clutch moment every time.
Huge BMT (Big Match Temperament). BRT?

[andy666]

Just had a thought , with the relaxing of team orders this season, will Red Bull expect Mark to move over to let Seb through ? I just cannot see Mark playing that game . Forget KERS and rear wing flappy things to make F1 more entertaining . Bring on the fireworks !

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by andy666

Just had a thought , with the relaxing of team orders this season, will Red Bull expect Mark to move over to let Seb through ? I just cannot see Mark playing that game . Forget KERS and rear wing flappy things to make F1 more entertaining . Bring on the fireworks !

I thought RB said that nothing changes from last year and both drivers are to "fight it out" for the WDC so we shouldn't see Webber pull over for Vettel at any stage or the reverse... They can't change there tune after all the fuss that was made over their decision not to back one driver last year...



I personally think Webber will adapt to managing his tyres better than Vettel so will be a interesting year for sure.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by St00ge

I thought RB said that nothing changes from last year and both drivers are to "fight it out" for the WDC so we shouldn't see Webber pull over for Vettel at any stage or the reverse... They can't change there tune after all the fuss that was made over their decision not to back one driver last year...



I personally think Webber will adapt to managing his tyres better than Vettel so will be a interesting year for sure.

Yeah you are right in what you say , but just imagine this scenario . Red bull clearly had the quickest car last season but lets say Ferrari has caught them up and are just as quick this year, will they still have the same view about letting the drivers "fight it out" . Remember Helmut Marko (or whatever his name is) and his favouritism for Seb last season ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by andy666

Yeah you are right in what you say , but just imagine this scenario . Red bull clearly had the quickest car last season but lets say Ferrari has caught them up and are just as quick this year, will they still have the same view about letting the drivers "fight it out" . Remember Helmut Marko (or whatever his name is) and his favouritism for Seb last season ?

Strange that you mention Ferrari. Which one will it be, I wonder?

Also. If we go back to Monaco 2009, we can see for sure that Webber is better on 'edgier' tyres.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Strange that you mention Ferrari. Which one will it be, I wonder?

Also. If we go back to Monaco 2009, we can see for sure that Webber is better on 'edgier' tyres.

I thought mentioning Ferrari would have been a safer bet , if i had said my favourite team (Mclaren) i would probably have been laughed out of this forum !!!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

or does it always fall one week after his yearly mountain bike stack

Ahhh, the old falling off the bike excuse, what happens if Mark doesn't fall off his bike this year but still gets beaten? What excuse will you find then?

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Ahhh, the old falling off the bike excuse, what happens if Mark doesn't fall off his bike this year but still gets beaten? What excuse will you find then?

*scratches head*

Don't think he's the one making excuses there, V.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Ahhh, the old falling off the bike excuse, what happens if Mark doesn't fall off his bike this year but still gets beaten? What excuse will you find then?

He can always revive his 2 favourites, gearboxes & aero!
Who can forget his attempt to drive backwards down Hanger Straight in the wet as a result of a gearbox 'glitch'........of course it had absolutely nothing to do with losing traction on the white line (as seen on the replay).
Or when he 'lost' the front aero trying his desperate outbrake in Melbourne where (in his words) the front of the car "took off"
No car/aero issue there Mark, that's called "screwing up".

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

He can always revive his 2 favourites, gearboxes & aero!
Who can forget his attempt to drive backwards down Hanger Straight in the wet as a result of a gearbox 'glitch'........of course it had absolutely nothing to do with losing traction on the white line (as seen on the replay).
Or when he 'lost' the front aero trying his desperate outbrake in Melbourne where (in his words) the front of the car "took off"
No car/aero issue there Mark, that's called "screwing up".

Then there was the time that he got hit up the back end by a Torro Rosso. That was hilarious!

If we add up all of the mistakes that both Webber and Vettel have made over the years, then I don't think that it would stand either one of them in good stead.

[fomoco]

Doesn't matter what Mark thinks or does, the "Team" is structure ver Seb,Sab,Sook, whatever.

Mark is like a few other over time, given the right equipment, can do and are capable of winning a Championship.

But due to Sponsor , team Owner, and Team principal(A waffle expert in media spin) they like Mark, will never be allowed to win.

They will always be, (Team Principal media spin) " he drives fantastic, he is part of the team" when really what should be said,
"we have chosen who we want to win, he is there to get points towards the Constructors Championship"

Sorry to make the point to Euro F1 people, but this is the reality of the sport. Unless you are from Euro, you dont mean ****.

F1 says it's a World CHampionship, Sorry its a "Old School Tie Club". Run by people who seem to think pre Colombus, We are the only place on earth that runs anything.

Euro teams, including Eng, do not like people from the southern hemphisere and the US coming over and winning races, championships.

This is proved in polls about F1, How many Euro's remember or choose to deny , that Jack Brabham, built his own team, Car and Won, yet they vote for for people who only drive for some manufactures, i.e. ferrari.

Jack did it three times, and his mate Danny, yet again, he was not from Euro.

So, I pity Mark and other drivers, I depise Christian Honer and others, nothing more than crap artists.

Unless your Euro, or drive for a certain team, you will always be a
NUMBER 2

[Marbot]

To that I would add that if Webber hadn't screwed up at the Korean GP.........