[BTCC] Races 16, 17 & 18 - Snetterton, Norfolk - 2nd August 2009

[crmalcolm]

Paul,
I think that the majority (if not all) posters here are supportive of Liam, yourself and all the efforts being put in to get the car on the grid whenever possible.
It would please us all to see Liam driving at every round, and I know I personally have enjoyed seeing his performances so far this year.
As davyboy has said - the fact that people are talking about Liam shows the interest generated and it is unfortunate, but inevitable, that people will always speculate when a driver misses a round.
So far this season we have had speculation (usually financially related) surrounding Bell, Hughes, Morrison, Shedden, Vaulkhard, Eaves et al. Liam is now another name to add to the list unfortunately.

I wish you every success in getting the car/engine sorted soon and look forward to seeing Liam mixing it up with the front runners in the not-too-distant future.

Good Luck, Chris.

[touringlegend]

Originally Posted by privateer

Thanks for the kind words of support we do also have press releases done at every round these are sent to all the official and unofficial sites just some do not print them.
Its frustrating for me as it was my idea that Liam came back from Spain to race in the BTCC he wanted to stay another year in Spain so now it looks so bad on me as if we had stayed in Spain he would have competed at the top and earned good money doing so but we will still get to a couple more BTCC round yet

Paul, thanks for your input on this topic.

If you don't mind me asking, in hindsight would you have steered clear of the Seats? Seat Sport seem to very protective of their designs, maybe rightly so, but this doesn't help a independent team like yours. Though I'm guessing the Seat's were the best option to buy as the BMW and Chevy's are extorniate for spares by all accounts, never mind buying the actual car.

[privateer]

To be fair we were warned about the seat parts etc but the cars seamed to be reasonably cheap.We did have Chevrolet offered to us at got to say a realy good deal the cars were reasonably cheap but it was the engine deal that stopped us realy.Bmw never an option because Liam was into front wheel drive but my god they without doubt are the cars to have

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by privateer

To be fair we were warned about the seat parts etc but the cars seamed to be reasonably cheap.We did have Chevrolet offered to us at got to say a realy good deal the cars were reasonably cheap but it was the engine deal that stopped us realy.Bmw never an option because Liam was into front wheel drive but my god they without doubt are the cars to have

Paul,

Firstly a fantastic insight to Liam's situation and straight from a direct source so we can all now stop speculating! , I for one am very pro Liam and do understand its a huge step into BTCC with budgets, he's also a Norfolk lad and that makes him an even better prospect!.

A couple of questions which I know have been touched on, firstly the buying of the cars, you have said 3 of the four engines were broken so was a test only completed in one car with the 20v unit? , as there were 3 cars in total I assume these had no units in to test?
In hindsight and bearing in mind the cost of the engines should prospective buyers look to test all units before a deal is done?

Liam I understand wrote of one chassis, which one was this the ex Plato,Hines chassis? , I am suprised all the chassis are in use after the motorbase drivers had huge crashes in 07 with them, Did David Bartrum have the same issues as you with parts supply?

Why are Seat so protective of the engine, makes little sense and hardly encourages teams like you to go and buy one of there cars, why will they not sell you parts?

Can you put a different maunfacturer engine in it although this would be an odd way of thinking?

The Seats have had little success since leaving the works team in the hands of privateers, did this bother you or was the price so good it off-set this thinking that would leave a development budget. In hindsight would the ex Integra of Pinkney not have been better?

Are you still planning on selling the other car you have or now keeping this as a spare?

I wish you all the best for the future.

[Matt Speakman]

Originally Posted by privateer

To be fair we were warned about the seat parts etc but the cars seamed to be reasonably cheap.

My girlfriend has a phrase - buy cheap buy twice! But if I was going to join the BTCC for this season a deal involving 3 S2000 Toledos, 4 engines, & a variety of spares for not too much money is what I would have spent my sterling on at the beginning of the year.

A real shame it hasn't gone smoothly, but as the old man would say, it's all character building & will leave you coming back more determined than ever before.

Best of luck getting the car out again, look forward to seeing it on track & mixing with the front runners

[privateer]

In Reply to Icebaby,
We bought 2 cars complete with engines 1 X 20v 1X 16v both cars were herd running the other 2 x 20valve engines were at the engine builders. When buying a BTCC car you would not test all the engines its usualy done by word of mouth just testing the car could cost £10k pluss.THese engines are fragile and can go down at anytime its part of the risk.

Liam destroyed the Plato car which we got £14.75 for when we scrapped it!! Liam wrote a note on the roof about the car befor it went to be crushed its not printable but very funny! All the shells we have used have been re Jigged as they all were incorrect in one way or another.

Its not just Seat all works engine builders would be the same not forgetting its quite unusual to own works engines they are usualy rented units. No we cannot use a different manufacturers engine though we could use a VW group product.

The Toledo was a good cheap grounding for Liam. We did seek advice from Liams engineer Paul Ridgeway befor the purchase but non of us expected or budgetted for the engine woes.

Dave Pinkney tried to get us to buy the Alfa and we did concider it and to be honest could not have been any worse than these Toledos!

WE may put both cars now for sale and look for something different but we have to prove those engines first

[Icebaby]

Cheers for this info Paul,

I see your point that you now need to prove these cars are able to run without issues and that the engine problems are overcome as any prospective buyer will have concerns otherwise, if you sell are you going to keep in BTCC but go with another manufacturers car?

£14.75 for the ex Plato car is a great shame, I really thought you could have got more for it on e-bay, the tag alone stating chassis number etc should have been worth a few quid.

The Alfa's I think would have been a better bet and would not judge them on A-Tech's ability or the drivers concerned but more on James Thompson who ran the car so well, it looks a good car and just needs a good driver and the ability to set it up which I am sure Paul Ridgway could easily handle.

One other car springs to mind being the ex BTCC MG that WSR still have, a deal with them to include set up help and support may have been another good option.

Back to the engines, can you rent a 16v unit then and simply re-build and sell the existing ones, this would then hopefully ease your engine issues?

One final question Paul, take a situation where Liam in race 2 takes pole for race 3 how do the team deal with this as one part must be elation but the other the fact he may encounter big damage as running at the rear the privateers are more reluctant to bash panels.

[privateer]

We did remove the chassis tags Liam has them!
We could rent Seat Petrol engines but they are built by Leyman in Swiss it would mean a new exhaust system,new fuel system and around £30 per kilometer thats £10k for engine rental for a weekend!!!!!!!

One thing you should not forget is that the only difference between running a BTCC car at the top is the original price of your car!

Fuel,Tyres,Brakes ,Engine Rebuilds, Gearbox rebuilds are same what ever car you run its what you can afford at the start predicts what car you run!

Who gives a **** how much damage you get if you start from pole !!
Neither Liam or me would worry about damage infact its never bothered Liam if you worry about the damage in the BTCC do not go there!

Privateer costs are alot lower for panels etc than the top teams all our panels are Glass as the top boys use Carbon, Saying that the complete front on Liams car is Carbon and to replace it is £12k but we have had most copied in glass now thank god

[Icebaby]

Thanks again Paul, Is there any tests for Liam scheduled in the near future once engines re-built?

[kimbo]

Originally Posted by privateer

Lets try to put this Straight! When we bought the cars all 3 of them and engines all 4 of them we thought we would have enough engines and spares to last the season we are a self funded team so would only require the running costs for the season. We where not aware 3 of the four engines are broken we had an invoice from the previouse team to state there was still over 1000k left on the engines and the 16 valve was totaly re-built as new.All pre season testing was done on the 20valve engine we had and intending to start the season on the fresh 16 valve unit.



The 16 valve broke after 34 kilometers was returned to the builders repaired and sent back then broke again after 40 kilometers it then got messy re unpaid bill by the owners before us it all ended with us paying half there outstanding invoice just to get our 3 broken engines back.





Paul McMillan a skint dad of a bloody good 19 yearold BTCC driver

Having been the victim of a similar (albeit much less costly) scenario myself, I would like us to ask ourselves - why do we put up with this kind of c**p.
A description of the goods, whether it's a loaf of bread or a racing car, forms part of a legal contract, whether written or verbal. I know and accept that race engines are by their nature fragile, but 34km?
I am guessing that this is the motor which you ran in the 1st round at Thruxton and from where I was standing (post 3) it was obviously not well from the getgo.
However, that aside, and sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, have you tried approaching Seat UK for a bit of leverage? Peter Wyhinney, the MD is an enthusiast (still races the Caddy in the VW Cup iirc) and may be able to open a door or two.
I really hope that you get it all sorted soon, and we see Liam back out there.

Kim

[BootsOntheSide]

I doubt anybody at SEAT really cares about the BTCC anymore, judging by the way they ducked out so late last year. They have no racing heritage and were only ever in it for some promotion and brand realignment.

It's a real shame that Liam has been missing for so long, just as it's a shame Mickey Doyle and the Jackson team are absent. You can forgive a teenage rookie for writing off one car, and you can forgive an inexperienced family team for buying equipment which hasn't proved VFM. The Alfas and MGs look good with the benefit of hindsight. I hope you can come back at Silverstone and get a good springboard for 2010 - perhaps an ex-RML Cruze or a Vauxhall once Triple 8 pull out?

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I doubt anybody at SEAT really cares about the BTCC anymore, judging by the way they ducked out so late last year. They have no racing heritage and were only ever in it for some promotion and brand realignment.

It's a real shame that Liam has been missing for so long, just as it's a shame Mickey Doyle and the Jackson team are absent. You can forgive a teenage rookie for writing off one car, and you can forgive an inexperienced family team for buying equipment which hasn't proved VFM. The Alfas and MGs look good with the benefit of hindsight. I hope you can come back at Silverstone and get a good springboard for 2010 - perhaps an ex-RML Cruze or a Vauxhall once Triple 8 pull out?

The Cruze's are going to be hot stuff for many teams to get their hands on.

The Vectra's less so. No one's made a secondhand Vauxhall work well in touring car racing.

[davyboy]

I imagine 888 will run the Vectras again next year. It would make no sense for them to go down the route of developing a new car or starting again with something else given where they are now and the impending rule changes. If they can secure a good sponsor and retain Gio... figure them to be exactly where they are right now in 2010.