ERC 2013

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by chunder

A lot of snobbery from our Bebelux friends there

Autocross means little to me other than buggies and a differnet sort of racing

Snobbery when half the top men jst drive into each other is hardly a god point of view!

I am drifting away as many others will, who cares if certain people dont want to write about it, there have been vested interests for a very long time in rallycross, one of the reasons why it is dying a death in the UK and if this all goes ahead why it will also do this in certain parts of Europe.

In Sweden and Norway the dying has already began in my opinion... This year Holland has seen some decent ERC coverage, but a lot of that is down to de Rooy's appearance in Valkenswaard.

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

In Sweden and Norway the dying has already began in my opinion... This year Holland has seen some decent ERC coverage, but a lot of that is down to de Rooy's appearance in Valkenswaard.

Not a lot different then last year, then all races were shown too in the weeks prior to the .nl round to build up the attention for the event.
http://www.ekrallycross.nl/index.php...te-zien-op-rtl Last years broadcasting schedule. But I bet the name of the dakar winner will have helped a lot to get attention.

[rx-guru]

When RX commentator of the first hour, John Sprinzel, invented the name Rallycross only a few days prior to the first ever event, on February 4 1967 at Lydden, the sport of Autocross was also still in its infancy and had no bad sound in the UK. And it possibly never had... However, in Germany (and other European countries) the 'cross' makes people immediately think of strange/funny looking vehicles racing through mudpools or potato fields. Or make them think about bangers rodeo, the last car standing is the winner. To whatever motorsport outsider you talk over here about Rallycross: no-one to notice that Rally, but all notice the cross in the first place. And RallyRacing would also make the people understand that we do racing, not rallying. I do not remember of how many times I had to tell even keen autosport fans that Rallycross does not fit into the Rally box, but into the Racing box.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

Not a lot different then last year, then all races were shown too in the weeks prior to the .nl round to build up the attention for the event.
http://www.ekrallycross.nl/index.php...te-zien-op-rtl Last years broadcasting schedule. But I bet the name of the dakar winner will have helped a lot to get attention.

Yep, same promotor...

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

When RX commentator of the first hour, John Sprinzel, invented the name Rallycross only a few days prior to the first ever event, on February 4 1967 at Lydden, the sport of Autocross was also still in its infancy and had no bad sound in the UK. And it possibly never had... However, in Germany (and other European countries) the 'cross' makes people immediately think of strange/funny looking vehicles racing through mudpools or potato fields. Or make them think about bangers rodeo, the last car standing is the winner. To whatever motorsport outsider you talk over here about Rallycross: no-one to notice that Rally, but all notice the cross in the first place. And RallyRacing would also make the people understand that we do racing, not rallying. I do not remember of how many times I had to tell even keen autosport fans that Rallycross does not fit into the Rally box, but into the Racing box.

RallyRacing could work if it would be used throughout all Rallycross nations in Europa. The Dutch used it for a couple of years, but not very successful I guess, as people get confused...

[rx-guru]

IIRC Sjaak N. is using the tag RallyRacing since the FIA ORC failed in WMSC. Of course it is confusing people and during ERC weekends he needs to use the tag Rallycross again to suit FIA. Even more confusing...

[rallycrossnl]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

IIRC Sjaak N. is using the tag RallyRacing since the FIA ORC failed in WMSC. Of course it is confusing people and during ERC weekends he needs to use the tag Rallycross again to suit FIA. Even more confusing...

Yep, indeed.
/me raises the [Non-FIA-European RallyRacing championship] flag. And the [Open Dutch Rally Racing Kampioenschap] Flag too! (white bit says rally)
Who knows...
Better not have a Hoon Kaboom one printed yet I presume

And even more confusing when you try to explain the rules and workflow of it to a total stranger of the sport.
'It's a non contact sport with 3 timetrails for places in the final, winner gets the points etc etc.' And the person you are talking to is seeing cars hitting eachother in every corner during the timetrail part... They always ask, wouldn't it be smart to not push others off and just focus on the best time possible?
Yeah I know, off topic and a clean overtaking is hard on most tracks, and we now have the jokerlap ladidadidadida...

[FIRE]

I think the contact is not the problem because most of the general public like that. I am watching rallycross around 2 years now but is the contact really worse than 15 or 30 years ago? Last year I watched some season reviews of the mid to late 80s and there was also a lot of contact.


Of course newbies need some explanation about the race format but it isn't rocket science. It's not more difficult than the current qualifiying format of F1 and DTM.

[rallycrossnl]

No, contact isn't a problem and the alternative would be single cars running for a time like in the official time practice on saturday 3 times and thus fill the final. No that wouldn't be attractive.

But I've seen races, one of the first runs by Mandy Kasse in the touring-cars comes to mind, can't really remember who was behind her, but, nose to taillights for 4 laps, even through the joker! where he had the quicker car and lost time batteling it out rather then using the jokerlap to overtake and score a faster time. Pure fun.

I think that loads of runs/heats for lots of drivers would have resulted in faster times, and thus better startingplace in the final, for themselfs if they weren't concentrating on getting their frontrunner out of the way rather then setting the fastest time. Yeah there's always been lots of contact, it wouldn't be the same without it.
But even I , after watching it for 30+ years, can't really understand that a driver chooses the risk of getting no time (crash, get stuck in the loose next to the track etc) during heats/runs where the 'mission' is the fastest time and not position in that race where your direct championship point result opponent isn't participating for most of the times (given enough cars in the same class). But it would be dull without the occasional featherlight bump into eachother.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by rallycrossnl

where the 'mission' is the fastest time and not position in that race where your direct championship point result opponent isn't participating for most of the times (given enough cars in the same class).

Time instead of position is also confusing for newbies.
Is this because rallycross originated out of rally?

[rallycrossnl]

I don't think so, it's one method to measure 'the days best' over 3 manches, where direct opponents do not necessarily meet because only 5 of the total # of cars in that class start per run, and give him/her p1 in the final. You could think out a different system but this is fair and proven to work alright.
One could discuss used wording. A car not starting in a rerun gets a DNS where it would get a DNF if the innitial run would have ended normally. In my eyes it did start, it crossed the startingline. It just didn't finish.
Difference? 10 points, 14.2 says;

'Those drivers who did not complete the Heat will be credited with 80 points; those drivers who did not start the Heat will be credited with 90 points; those drivers who were excluded from the Heat will be credited with 95 points.'

Antf*cking as we say in .nl it dosn't change much if at all in championship standings, but still.. I guess it's rather dissapointing for a driver when you get a friendly pet on the behind (of the car!) and drop out, there is a rerun in which you aren't able to start in and if your friendly opponent of which you recieved the gentle thumb didn't get blackflagged, he is 10 points ahead of you just by finishing. And your car looks like it was runover by a steamroller and it 'did not start'?? Must be the envy looks in the paddock that did it then.
Silly at it's best. I did hear that it was discussed at lenght at FIA ORC and KNAF a number of times but still it's the same.
Just wording I know. Shouldn't even be thinkin about it..

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Time instead of position is also confusing for newbies.
Is this because rallycross originated out of rally?

One cannot claim this. The idea behind Rallycross was to start a race with four invited Rally drivers abreast, like in Autocross. For the drivers Rally was used, for the type of racing the cross of Autocross was taken to tag the new sport Rallycross then. However, in the very early races there were no finals and the fastest time of the day decided over the winner. Later on the two fastest times were add. 1976, the first year with the FIA saw the first finals with knock-out system. From 1977 on we had C, B, and A Final as the knock-out system produced too much of unsportive driving.

[1975DCS]

The only thing I would like to see is a longer race in the finals, maybe like a 15 minute A final! I think this should work better in TV coverage too... Now it is all over in a few minutes...

[rx-guru]

When I started to attend RX events (from 1974 on) in almost all countries the first qualifying heat was scheduled for Sunday 13.00h. Even with 100+ entries! Later on it was changed for several years to Sunday 11.00h. Okay, I cannot deny that some races ended at 19.00 or 20.00h by then, but most were done at 18.00h. This whole crap with splitting the ERC rounds racing over two days started with TEAC at Lydden and was soon adopted by NMK Drammen for Lyngås in Norway. With ERC rounds now taking place between Friday noon and Sunday eve no-one can claim this is TV food any longer. Nor is it food for the non-insiders among potential spectators. I warned about this development already 25 years ago and did several proposals to the FIA ORC via its by then President Swede Börje Jönsson. I bet my proposals of how to overcome boring events were feed for his bin, nothing changed, the ERC train was heading faster and faster to what we have these days. And all of a sudden the "main event" should be changed to a 3 hours Sunday program...

No doubt that Rallycross is in a cul-de-sac for many a year, but a 3 hours Sunday is as ridiculous as what we already have!

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rx-guru

When I started to attend RX events (from 1974 on) in almost all countries the first qualifying heat was scheduled for Sunday 13.00h. Even with 100+ entries! Later on it was changed for several years to Sunday 11.00h. Okay, I cannot deny that some races ended at 19.00 or 20.00h by then, but most were done at 18.00h. This whole crap with splitting the ERC rounds racing over two days started with TEAC at Lydden and was soon adopted by NMK Drammen for Lyngås in Norway. With ERC rounds now taking place between Friday noon and Sunday eve no-one can claim this is TV food any longer. Nor is it food for the non-insiders among potential spectators. I warned about this development already 25 years ago and did several proposals to the FIA ORC via its by then President Swede Börje Jönsson. I bet my proposals of how to overcome boring events were feed for his bin, nothing changed, the ERC train was heading faster and faster to what we have these days. And all of a sudden the "main event" should be changed to a 3 hours Sunday program...

No doubt that Rallycross is in a cul-de-sac for many a year, but a 3 hours Sunday is as ridiculous as what we already have!

Shame they didn't listen... Nowadays it is wait, wait, wait... I wouldn't mind an ending of let's say 19h, although I could understand drivers are not so happy with this...

[WJM]

2 days of racing = 2 times entry money. Long breaks = more food and drinks sold.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

The only thing I would like to see is a longer race in the finals, maybe like a 15 minute A final! I think this should work better in TV coverage too... Now it is all over in a few minutes...

In Autocross they have longer qualifying heats and longer finals. It doesn't improve the racing in my opinion.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by WJM

2 days of racing = 2 times entry money. Long breaks = more food and drinks sold.

Could also mean that possible spectators won't visit at all. To be honest, this year I only watch the Dutch round on Sunday only and to be honest I don't recommend it to anyone...

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by WJM

In Autocross they have longer qualifying heats and longer finals. It doesn't improve the racing in my opinion.

Of course I mean the finals only, I understand your view, but I mean if they want to do a (semi) live coverage races should be longer, as in DTM.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by chasing cars

Part 3
http://erc24.com/archives/7435#more-7435

If I understood the article correctly the FIA ORC meeting was set to take place on 22nd August. Anyone know what came out of it?

[rx-guru]

Originally Posted by AndyS

If I understood the article correctly the FIA ORC meeting was set to take place on 22nd August. Anyone know what came out of it?

Discussions postponed to the next meeting.

[AndyS]

Autosport confirming that ERC is no more and will now be FIA Rallycross from 2013. Still using same venues next year but looking to use venues outside Europe as well from 2014. Where on earth do they think they are going to find venues, unless they are going down the temporary venue route like the GRC. Will they go up directly against the GRC in the States? Sadly, looks like another motor sport where races will be on offer to the highest bidder. A certain Mr Hansen seems to have had a hand in all this as well. One positive seems to be 25 supercars though, although nothing about other classes. How on earth will the S1600 and TC drivers be able to fund trips outside Europe I wonder. The article answers some questions, but raises lots of others.

[rallyloverke]

Where did you read this? Thx

[WJM]

Originally Posted by rallyloverke

Where did you read this? Thx

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102040

[Hickey]

Maybe a lot of the Western European guys could team up with the Northern and Eastern Europe Cha,pionship and make that a really good (slightly) lower budget championship that is open to all.

Then the rich boys can have their FIA RC and the NEZ Championship could see some excellent entries across the whole of Europe.