What's happening to motorsport?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

... most clubs will give a refund up to 3 days before the meeting so I don't see a problem with the 2 week closing date. ...

So the club does something for the competitor, seems only kind to get the entry in early to help the club. Sorry state of affairs that they have to have something in place to encourage it.

There is too much them and us here. It is just us and us. We're all in the club doing something we like.

Al, sorry about the whinging comment.

[midgetman]

Al, I really think you're on a loser here, and think you're being unreasonable. The whole world doesn't revolve around one person, no matter how important they are. 10 races with 30 entries, all entering late on the Friday before the meeting. It's not adding "one" name to the list, it's THREE HUNDRED. You have to draw the line somewhere.

You want to p the club around entering at your leisure? Then ruddy well pay for the privilege! They've invested heavily in the club, the least you could have is the common courtesy to enter in good time so their risk is covered.

[Al Weyman]

Alright wind it in and look at my last post I said maybe the Monday after the weekend before at least. OK lets do nothing and watch it go down the ruddy pan yeah? And another suggestion, sort this BTCC thing out once and for all and get some decent driving standards back as its just putting out the wrong message, its also apparent these needless shunts are putting a lot of people out and off for good.

[Adam43]

Someone disagrees with a point you make and we get a dramatic

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

OK lets do nothing and watch it go down the ruddy pan yeah?

comment.
And you pick me up on posting etiquette when i said you were whinging! Well, a challenge back to you, are we going discuss this or just rant? Are we going to try and see how we can help each other, or...

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Alright wind it in and look at my last post I said maybe the Monday after the weekend before at least. OK lets do nothing and watch it go down the ruddy pan yeah? And another suggestion, sort this BTCC thing out once and for all and get some decent driving standards back as its just putting out the wrong message, its also apparent these needless shunts are putting a lot of people out and off for good.

Now I couldnt agree with you more with regards to the BTCC and driving standards etc....thats awhole new boardgame!!!!

Originally Posted by historic racer

Nice sarky reply there Claire perhaps stating the obvious, thats why then MSV has managed to buy a Learjet to hire out ( how cheap was that !!! ) and JP flies around in a helicopter . JP was not complaining about the facilities or anything about the circuit but about the level of entry fees, We raced on what we had in those days and if you look at the Castrol film about Frank Gardener at Oulton and Thruxton ( I'm in it ! ) the state of the circuits was in keeping with the rest of life for the period, lots of things look bad when we compare what was and what is now. The circuits try to attract the high profile meetings which mean high profile facilities which us clubmen have to contribute towards, glitzy grandstands mean nothing at our level, our spectators could be accomodated on a park bench.

Then have you thought about hiring out the park rather than a circuit?

You DONT have to contribute at all......dont use them...use the park

Originally Posted by historic racer

the state of the circuits was in keeping with the rest of life for the period, lots of things look bad when we compare what was and what is now..

And at the risk of being called sarky again, how do you think they have improved, or do you not think they have? catchment fencing etc which although not popular with spectators in general, stop the likes of what happened in Le Man in 55 happening again (sometimes) ...where does that money come from to build that?and do you ot as a clubman benefit from that same fencing that stops Plato going into the crowd? ...the above quote strengthens the likes of what Jackie Stewart campaigned for etc better safety in Motorsport for you the competitor and also the marshal...and by the way...as you are probably well aware, MSV dont have the most expensive circuit in the country for hire...that is a FACT

With regards to the "learjet" ( Hawker King Air B200GT prop plane actually)I certainly would not speculate the cost or indeed how it is affordable, but, considering the reason for its purchase was given as a way to get its F2 people about, I should imagine the F2 business stream would be funding it?...but as I say, I would not want to speculate, but just to confirm,MSV is a business, it makes MONEY...that is what it is for, it earns or should earn profits from its venture....for gods sake should the circuits be owned by the state perhaps?.......if you do not like MSV then you can always vote with your feet, snub the MSV circuits use Silverstone....oh no sorry,,...thats guilty of the same thing ...I know...try Donington.....or seeing as you have mentioned how it was, use a lesser circuit for your racing, I will not name them but they do exsist and im sure are touting for business, they have no glitzy grandstands and you can race on them (dont think some have MSA Track Licences though so it wont really be official) but as you say, in those days you raced on what you had....so...can be done again Im sure.

I just want to confirm I do not work for MSV and as I have said, personally Im not comfortable with them owning five circuits, but as I keep saying ...dont complain about how bad Motorsport is by having a go at MSV....have a go at it all...be constructive with the crittism rather than sounding (in my opinion) a little jealous of an individual. The most important thing to do surely is to suggest alternatives..or more importantly MAKE alternatives.


With the late entry fee...as I said, I am not a fan, but that said,we did introduce "Early Bird discounts" which is basically the same thing re worded and reversed aint it?...we offered it cheaper the further from closure you was with your entry......The MSA actually stipulate when entry should be closed but modern technology makes entry more easy to process and I do tend to believe that entry in this day and age should be available as late as possible, that said, you have to as an organiser issue an entry list and there is some work that has to go on in order to get that all ready for race day but as I say, I dont believe in penalising for lateness (unless its for a drivers briefing!!! ha ha)

[midgetman]

Al, as you must know I personally hate bureaucracy, but even I accept there must be a sensible deadline for entries and ten days seems pretty suitable.

Over the years here there has been a repeated call "Are entry lists available on the Internet yet?" and some dissatisfaction if the answer is "no". If deadline were a mere four days before the start of the event, that clamour would increase. Then the clubs have to collate entries, amalgamate races, issue tickets, post them...only to find that Fred left for Anglesey a couple of days early to have a little holiday, and his pass arrived too late, how much more moaning would take place!

Forget it mate, this is NOT an idea that's going to fly. If there weren't an early closing date, chaos will reign...and STILL someone would moan why couldnt he enter even later with no penalty.

Finally in my little rant....how many people actually race on consecutive weekends anyway? If you can afford to do that, you can afford to pay a few quid extra for the luxury of not abiding by the rules just to suit yourself.

I'm greatly in favour of cutting costs and streamlining processes, but this ain't gonna fly!

[midgetman]

On another tack, how would it seem to you if you were at a seminar where the event leader stood up and made a presentation smoking a fag? Or was seen smoking outside a no smoking zone, separated from petrol by a metal car park arm. Or another senior official peppered his speech with comments about people being an ******* in front of 8 year old children and made misogynistic jokes about his fellow officials? Or a chequered flag marshal who mistakenly let a race run on an extra two laps, but was seen by one driver as using his mobile during the race? In the last cas, another young lad waited until the last lap board to make his move only to have the win taken off him because they declared the result at the correct end time, not when the flag was shown.

Those characters have been Clerks of the Course or senior marshals at one motor sport venue I've been to regularly lately. Before lecturing the drivers, Physician heal thyself.

[Al Weyman]

Must be a Karting event max they always make a good read in the MSA dicipline pages. The best one was when a disgruntled father hurled his sons kart engine through the caravan window of the engine builder! My BTCC comments was after reading comments on Facebook about events at Cadwell where at least two cars and desperatly needed entries will not be out this year again because of stupid senceless driving tactics. I know its a race but it needs tempering down.

[terence]

One area that has been overlooked re the clubman not being the main target. Thats because of the fact he never was! The main target=hence the Circuit improvements,was Track Day Drivers/Corporate Events,these actually bring more revenue than mere club racing-look at Bedford Autodrome.That complex will never get an MSA licence regarding Racing,it was never intended to be.
Yes,money has been spent,but not with the clubman in mind!Only thing in mind was £ signs,which had to be the case otherwise the whole lot goes under.
Anyway,I'm off now on another crap work day

[Al Weyman]

What do you work for Loos Are Us or something similar then Terry?

[chezza]

Sorry to go back to the late entry thing...

The MSA state in the blue book the latest an organising club can accept and entry therefore the clubs are tied to that and cannot take entries beyond that date. Which is probably why BARC NW took the stance that they did.

Clubs will state an entry closing date...this will be around 2 weeks before the event. This is so that they can finalise everything that they need to and get the paperwork in place. This includes the timetable and can invovle amalgamating races where grids are poor (just like you all want to see but complain when it happens to your series) and also having that closing date gives the club an idea on viability for that meeting. Also it enables the programmes, sign on sheets, scrutineering tickets etc to all be produced in advance. As someone else stated if we were to allow entries up to the day of the meeting this can add unecessary stresses on the secretary of the meeting and the other officials involved.

Also in places where grids are oversubscribed it can enable priorities to be given depending on your championship/series regulations.

One thing I do think is a good idea is the entry fee being stated at the higher price and then bought down if you enter before a certain date as trying to get the extra £25 or £30 can be impossible when a driver enters late and pays by cheque.

[Al Weyman]

I did say make it the Monday after the weekend before Chezza I still cannot see why that isn't enough time and I know its the MSA that set the cut off date but that doesn't mean they cannot be challenged on it, I mean they sanction BTCC races so don't always get it right.

[MMC Andy]

And not strictly true that organising clubs have to/or do abide by these rules of late entries. As Al has mentioned, the CSCC allow entries up to 11am of the day of the meeting for Sports v Saloons races - but that said the CSCC Secretary is at race meetings and so can administer.

This issue is primarily a grassroots racing one - organising clubs are alot more flexibile as you go up the motorsport ladder. It purely comes down to not loading (often) part time administrators with last minute work.

Frankly in the modern, techno world we live in, its ridiculous that entries can't be accepted upto the day of the event - if all clubs were on the same, i-Cloud based system, then everyone (clubs, drivers, spectators) would be able to obtain (and plan for) the very latest information.

But that would require the MSA communicating, and organising clubs sharing information - so never going to happen. Lets keep UK grassroots motorsport in the 1980's - that will work. And its because UK grassroots motorsport refuses to move with the times & embrace change, that things will never change, numbers will dwindle, and drivers & spectators alike will always feel they are getting a raw deal.

[flagwaver]

Part of the reason it is easier for the CSCC to except late entries is that they have paid for their race. So to be honest the organising club are too bothered if they have 10 or 30 entries the organising club are still going to get the same amount.

I think some peoples comments on here shows their lack of understanding of how club motorsport is organised/financed in this country.

Maybe if more racers actually got involved in the organisation of race meetings, they would have better understanding.

We all know how good it was 20/30 years ago but we are living in the now not in the past.

[andy97]

Just to clarify, CSCC does enforce the "normal" closing date and does charge the late entry fee. Entrants can enter the Sports Vs Saloon race (where they run one) up to 1100 on the day of the race but this is because it is usually an extra race that competitors who have already signed on for another race can enter; those competitors have thus already paid their MSA contribution for insurance cover at that meeting and, presumably, are already on the MSA/ CSCC database for that meeting.

One more thing to bear in mind is that in many industries suppliers are often paid 30 days or so after they have supplied the goods. In motorsport the clubs have to supply the circuit hire fees up to 6 weeks before they have received the "goods". This makes planning somewhat precarious and takes a lot of faith that you are indeed going to get the grid size to cover the costs. One way of trying to mitigate that risk is to try to get people to enter several weeks before hand as the club then knows the size of the financial risk it faces.

Finally as club competitors we are often our own worst enemy as we want to race on the "good" tracks - Oulton, Donington, Brands GP etc- and on circuits that have good facilities, and yet we then moan about the cost of things. Good stuff costs. We could race at cheaper circuits such as Mallory, Anglesey, Pembrey, Lydden etc but many tend not to want to. (I accept that location is an issue!).

I used to race on the Silverstone Stowe circuit several times a year - £100 for 3 x 15 mins and a practice. Now no one is pretending the Stowe is a classic track at all but at my level it was very enjoyable. Now no one wants to race at Stowe. Admitedly part of the reason we raced there was because the race school needed a club to run the races at the end of its 5 day course and that is no longer relevant but the point remains at club level that I'd rather race 2-3 times a year at Stowe for a £100-120 a meeting than either not race at all or only be able to race once a year at some ludicrously expensive track for just one 20 min race.

In fact, come to think of it, at my level I'd happily race 2-3 times a year at Stowe, a couple of times a year at Mallory and once at Donington (because its my "local") and once at Anglesey, but I suspect I'd be on my own in being happy with that as a calendar! But my "budget" would not be any where near as stretched!

[midgetman]

Valid points Andy97. Whereas I'd rather race once or twice at hideously expensive circuits than continuously blast round a weedy little place like Stowe.

Just goes to show - in motor sport you can't please all of the people all of the time!

I can't agree with MMC Andy re late entries. It's not technology that lets the system down it's the financial gamble as '97 has outlined so well. MMC, you shoot yourself in the foot:

>>>>>>>>if all clubs were on the same, i-Cloud based system, then everyone (clubs, drivers, spectators) would be able to obtain (and plan for) the very latest information.

That would allow everyone to enter at the last minute, so 5 days before the event there would be no entries to display so the spectators and marshals would go elsewhere! And don't tell me the bulk would enter in advance, just ask ANY organiser how early they receive the bulk of the entries

[MMC Andy]

Disagree completely - of course you would have some form of "late entry fee" to encourage the early entrant, but my arguement is about lack of flexibility in the system as it stands. I can assure that this problem does not exist higher up the ladder.

This fear of having no entrants until the last minute is because the product is wrong - and brings us full circle on this issue. Two CSCC races at Donington this weekend are overscribed with reserves, and a further Series has been split in two to cater for extra entrants. If you have the right product, at the right price, then you will obtain entrants regardless of the timings of entries closing.

Major change is required to increase the number of grassroot racers, and whilst I may not have the answers to satisify contributors on here, the stating of rule books and "because this is how its done now" is neither helpful, or going to move the sport we love forward.

[flagwaver]

Part of the reason the problem of entries in the "higher meetings" is that the teams sign up for the series. So they have to pay X amount to the organisers whether they race or not, hence in part why several of them change drivers as they are the ones bringing in the money.

This will not work for obvious reasons in club racing. There is of course another reason why clubs want to try and get the money in as soon as possible and that is simple, cash flow. As already mentioned for most circuits they want their money at least six weeks before the event.

There are some championships that constantly provide large grids but they are the exception rather than the norm.

As I have said before until people start working together then we will continue to have fragmented grids because I won't race in this class because of this or that perceived problem.

Far to many drivers moan about what their clubs are doing but never attend meetings or AGM's then wonder why things don't go the way they want.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chezza

Sorry to go back to the late entry thing...

The MSA state in the blue book the latest an organising club can accept and entry therefore the clubs are tied to that and cannot take entries beyond that date. Which is probably why BARC NW took the stance that they did..............

I did say this way back....thank you for coming in and re confirming

Originally Posted by MMC Andy

This issue is primarily a grassroots racing one - organising clubs are alot more flexibile as you go up the motorsport ladder. It purely comes down to not loading (often) part time administrators with last minute work..

I absolutely dissagree with this statement and in fact think it is quite the opposite in truth but that is just my opinion

Originally Posted by MMC Andy

Frankly in the modern, techno world we live in, its ridiculous that entries can't be accepted upto the day of the event - if all clubs were on the same, i-Cloud based system, then everyone (clubs, drivers, spectators) would be able to obtain (and plan for) the very latest information...

It is a lovely idea with just one flaw...as stated a while back in this thread...Motorsport to some is a business and just as you would not give your customers details to a competitor, organising clubs will not either ...besides all being on the same system might well help but it will not solve the issue of late entries

Originally Posted by andy97

Just to clarify, CSCC does enforce the "normal" closing date and does charge the late entry fee. Entrants can enter the Sports Vs Saloon race (where they run one) up to 1100 on the day of the race but this is because it is usually an extra race that competitors who have already signed on for another race can enter; those competitors have thus already paid their MSA contribution for insurance cover at that meeting and, presumably, are already on the MSA/ CSCC database for that meeting.

Not quite true but 99.9 percent there (the permit is not returned with the total entry of the meeting until AFTER the event,not before,but even so, the sign on sheet is proof of the entries at the meeting for insurance etc ) but a "scratch" race is the only race that can take entries on the day and the reason is more or less what you say...the entry is already signed on

Originally Posted by andy97

One more thing to bear in mind is that in many industries suppliers are often paid 30 days or so after they have supplied the goods. In motorsport the clubs have to supply the circuit hire fees up to 6 weeks before they have received the "goods". This makes planning somewhat precarious and takes a lot of faith that you are indeed going to get the grid size to cover the costs. One way of trying to mitigate that risk is to try to get people to enter several weeks before hand as the club then knows the size of the financial risk it faces..

Agreed 100 percent

Originally Posted by andy97

Finally as club competitors we are often our own worst enemy as we want to race on the "good" tracks - Oulton, Donington, Brands GP etc- and on circuits that have good facilities, and yet we then moan about the cost of things. Good stuff costs. We could race at cheaper circuits such as Mallory, Anglesey, Pembrey, Lydden etc but many tend not to want to. (I accept that location is an issue!)...

Agreed again!!! As I said in the thread earlier...you cant have it both ways.

It seems competitors like the Club way....but want to be treated as customers, in which case, the club is not a club, its a business, so you as a customer have the right to pick and choose....and thats fair enough but that also means that you have to accept that the club is a business as is the circuit and as such is MARKET driven...Brands Hatch costs more why, because you will pay more to race there ....thats market forces....sorry but it is.

[andy97]

Crikey, Claire. Steady on, I wouldn't want people thinking that we agree with each other too much!

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

What do you work for Loos Are Us or something similar then Terry?

Full marks for trying to be funny Al,perhaps one day you will do it.

[simes43]

With respect, we are "club" members because
we have to be. And how many of the clubs are
not legal businesses of some kind?

Most drivers own cars that are built to a certain
set of regulations to suit one championship or
series. Therefore the clubs decisions and aspirations
have a direct impact on drivers wallets and their
ability to compete.

Sadly the spiral of increasing costs to meet the
short fall in entries will only accelerate the process of
stopping people racing.

[flagwaver]

Whilst cars are built to suit a particular championship, things change. In saloon cars, manufacturers change models and no longer want to support "older" models or major sponsors decide they no longer want to support a championship or go bust.

Then we get the drivers who spit there dummies out for one reason or another and decide to start another series for there particular car. With of course different regulations

So it is not always the clubs fault.

[simes43]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

Whilst cars are built to suit a particular championship, things change. In saloon cars, manufacturers change models and no longer want to support "older" models or major sponsors decide they no longer want to support a championship or go bust.

Then we get the drivers who spit there dummies out for one reason or another and decide to start another series for there particular car. With of course different regulations

So it is not always the clubs fault.

How many license holders are racing in manufacturer supported
series? 1%?

[Al Weyman]

Back in another time our modprod saloons managed to secure a decent sponsor package for a.number of years from Falken Tyres (£10000) a year and this was in the 90's then they decided to back golf instead and told me the reason which was basically they didn't like the way the club running the championship and the Msa creamed off their slice yet anytime they asked said club for a bit of extra promotion like putting banners up at a meeting (their supplied banners) all the club wanted to.do was talk extra money. So in essence they were chased off by greed instead of being looked after. For the 8k I got to play with I made sure it went back to the drivers and not just prize money down to 4th in class but start money as well. We also had a GENUINE discount on their excellent list 1a tyres. In the championships I run in today I believe the sponsor purse is less than a grand so none filters down to the guys and up until last year I had to by their tyres at nearly £200.a pop for a poxy 225/60/15 and we ask why its going down the pan!