[BTCC] Snetterton 20/21 May 2023, Rds. 7/8/9

[Jon411]

Looks like Cammish is about to be thrown out of the race results - shame for him if they can't justify the ride height

[Matt K]

Sorry for Cammish...

[redshoes]

Cammish was down after qualifying, and his car was after race 3

[BTCC frog]

Well I like the different tyres. If drivers have some races where they are quicker and some where they are slower, it increases the importance of racecraft because you need to be able to overtake when with the better tyre and defend when on the worse tyre. And it affects every driver equally. Also, it means we get more overtaking and battling, and while the cars on better tyres do have superior grip, it is still possible to defend with the slower tyre as Aron Smith did in race two and Sutton would have done if they had chosen the more interesting strategy of hard in race two. So it is not like DRS in Formula 1 which makes overtaking easy to the point of boring and ruins any tension. Josh Cook's passes on the BMWs were in no way inevitable and were very entertaining. And I don't agree that it is confusing for new fans. Three types of tyre, and they have to use a different one in each race. The hybrid is, admittedly, far more confusing but it also doesn't make enough of a difference to put people off.

I agree with the Addison and Harvey that the BMWs should have split their strategies, it is worth noting that Ingram scored more points over the weekend than Hill or Turkington despite finishing behind in the race when he had the best tyre, because these drivers have enough pace advantage to stay ahead in race two and can prioritise fighting to the front in race three.

[GT6]

well that was better than race 2 for sure

[pimmy]

At least Thruxton will have hards all-round. After that I hope it rains all year, either that or give the teams free choice of which tyres to run.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by SR18

BMWs started 1-2-4-5 and finished 7-8-10-11.
What more evidence ist needed to show that they're disasvantaged against the Fords?

Not really; a serious mistake by the team to have all cars on the hard compound, unlike all the other leading teams who split the cars.

Also, it is about time that WSR instilled driving discipline amongst their drivers; it is not good policy to have their team knocking and damaging their teammates. It's bad enough driving into the opposition let alone a fellow garage so called mate.

[SSmith]

Cammish officially disqualified.

Updated points

Sutton - 135
Ingram - 128
Turkington - 109
Cammish - 98
Hill - 98

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by SSmith

Cammish officially disqualified.

Updated points

Sutton - 135
Ingram - 128
Turkington - 109
Cammish - 98
Hill - 98

Really can’t see anyone taking the lead from Sutton as things stand, although at this point last year it must’ve been Cook way ahead, so who knows! Bit surprised that Hill isn’t closer. Funny that Sutton has seemed so dominant yet is only 7 points ahead!

Good to see a better showing from Moffat (and Cook) in that last one, though I assume it was mainly down to the tyres.

Shame that Thompson was so far back. Looks like Watson peaked in that first round too. Doble doing better than I expected.

No safety cars or contact / driving-induced penalties (for the moment!)

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Really can’t see anyone taking the lead from Sutton as things stand, although at this point last year it must’ve been Cook way ahead, so who knows! Bit surprised that Hill isn’t closer. Funny that Sutton has seemed so dominant yet is only 7 points ahead!

Well, if it hadn't been for the DNF and 15th at Donington, he could've been further away

As for Hill, he doesn't seem as fast as last year, at least for now, perhaps it's the rivals being stronger (certain NAPA Racing UK ) or a bit of pressure on his shoulders.

Kind of baffled about Watson. Such a superb performance in his first ever race in touring cars and then almost absolutely nowhere in further races...

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Really can’t see anyone taking the lead from Sutton as things stand, although at this point last year it must’ve been Cook way ahead, so who knows! Bit surprised that Hill isn’t closer. Funny that Sutton has seemed so dominant yet is only 7 points ahead!

Good to see a better showing from Moffat (and Cook) in that last one, though I assume it was mainly down to the tyres.

Shame that Thompson was so far back. Looks like Watson peaked in that first round too. Doble doing better than I expected.

Completely agree on all points here!

I think the Hill deficit is partly down to the Brands R3 puncture and then being 4th best BMW in Snet R3.

Unless a miracle happens, Cook's best shot at Thruxton will probably be getting a good reverse grid draw. I think One Motorsport were flattered a little by the softs.

HARD were off all weekend. Somehow Edwards damaged a subframe in R2 that couldn't be repaired for R3 - her season has just been awful.

I'm also a little surprised by Doble. Watson I think had a little beginners luck and is still getting to grips with FWD.

Still 21 races to go but I can't see anyone outside the current top 5 winning the title.

[S griffin]

I've got back from my first weekend at Snetterton. Even though the circuit isn't spectacular like Brands Hatch, which I went to at the end of last year, it's good in it's own way. Due to it being compacted into a small area it's easier to walk around different places and has some great viewing spots. Certainly the turns look a bit different than on TV and the Bentley Straight really does take a long time to walk next to.

Overall the racing was decent, nothing really spectacular. BTCC R3 was the best.

Sutton really looks on for another title. That Ford looks mega. Dan Cam though must be cursing his weekend. First the qualifying problems that put him way back and then after a great drive 11th to 2nd in R3, I come home to find out he's been thrown out for a ride height infringement. I tell you from where I was watching at the Bombhole there I could see nothing wrong with his ride height on the last lap! Shame really, as with Sutton going so well, he needs some competition and his team mate Dan Cam could be our best hope. Good to see Sam Osborne getting into the top 10 again

Nice to see the champion Tingram getting a win again despite not feeling well. About time we saw him up on the top step of the podium. Hill gave a good chase to Sutton in R1, but the Beemers just really seemed to struggle on the hards in the last race

Shame Collard went out in R1 after running well. ATS gave us the best entertainment in R2 holding off a pack of faster cars

As for the support races, it was good to see the Radicals out there. They got spread out quite a bit, but it was still fun to watch. Got a few spins out there. Good to see ex MotoGP star Guintoli doing well, made up a few places. The Brazilian driver Carvahlo was just a mobile chicane in R1. I saw his car laying idle while the other Radicals had left for R3. Had he been parked? The Minis are always good entertainment and the F4s had some decent action.

Minor complaints would be not being able to see the TV screen from the Bombhole grandstand and the marshals not reverting to the lighting system instead of flags means we can't always see what's going on. But overall it was a fun weekend and has whetted my appetite for more

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by SR18

Ford needs to be penalised ASAP. Like BMW were in 2019

Why?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by SR18

BMWs started 1-2-4-5 and finished 7-8-10-11.
What more evidence ist needed to show that they're disasvantaged against the Fords?

No, they were all on hard tyres - more like a duff strategy

[Sodemo]

I think the hard tyres just don’t work on the BMWs full stop. They apparently always want softer compounds, but yet struggle with rear tyre wear at times, so who knows.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by SR18

BMWs started 1-2-4-5 and finished 7-8-10-11.
What more evidence ist needed to show that they're disasvantaged against the Fords?

I think those placings also need context.

Less hybrid than the field due to R2 result.
Tyre disadvantage due to selection for R3.
Teammates taking each other out.
Makes other than Ford finished ahead of them in R3 (Hyundai, Toyota, Honda).

[S griffin]

I just don't think they had the pace, although things like less hybrid and the tyres they were on didn't help them. Definitely got a bit fraught between the BMWs in the final race. It's been good to see Ford up there, but the Hyundais definitely had the pace and the Toyotas are getting better. The Hondas though are a bit behind. Cook is really showing the way to the other two

[Craner Curves]

I've had a thought while watching yesterday. Most people under the age of 25 will not know the BTCC without success ballast and those of us unfortunate to be over that age have lived with it for a long time too. Is this partly why we are struggling to comprehend the "dominance" of Ash Sutton? Look back before 2000 and see who won the majority of races and championships. There were clear cases of car and driver in harmony, absolutely on the top of their game without any jiggery pokery (apart from different weights for drive trains).

[Redshift]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Minor complaints would be not being able to see the TV screen from the Bombhole grandstand ...

Except for 2020 (no spectators) & 2021 (limited spectators) there has been a big screen at the bombhole for as long as I can remember. I bought a grandstand seat because of that and ended up not using it. Instead I went over to the Murray's viewing area and had a great view of the big screen there.

Unfortunately there is never any advance notice of decisions like these which leave a sour taste when you book stuff up months in advance based on what has gone on before.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I've had a thought while watching yesterday. Most people under the age of 25 will not know the BTCC without success ballast and those of us unfortunate to be over that age have lived with it for a long time too. Is this partly why we are struggling to comprehend the "dominance" of Ash Sutton? Look back before 2000 and see who won the majority of races and championships. There were clear cases of car and driver in harmony, absolutely on the top of their game without any jiggery pokery (apart from different weights for drive trains).

I think there is definitely some truth to the removal of ballast and a team/driver being able to have more consistency.

If you take these quotes from drivers in 2017:

“The car was better with 66 kilos of ballast in that race than it was with nothing in the first”
“we’ve got a little bit of ballast and the car felt good with it at Media Day – this car is good with ballast in it.”
“It was a nicer car to drive [with 66kg] and I managed to sneak past Tom [Ingram]. We test with the weight all the time so maybe we’ve not quite found out how to make it work without the weight just yet”

The removal of ballast means that each car has the same handling characteristics regardless of success penalty. So when setting up a car, the teams don't have to compromise between different ballast levels, or try and find tweaks in between races.
What does that mean? - once a car is in the 'sweet spot' - as Sutton has indicated this last weekend - the success penalty does not affect that. The car will be consistently good - and NAPA seems to be dialed in at the moment.

[InYourMirrors45]

Attended Both the first 2 rounds of the season (Sunday Only) but attended both days for snetterton as it’s only half hour down the road and I have to say what a dull set of support races. Every time the Radicals were on track I fell asleep and the less said about the Porsche Caymans the better. F4 was as processional as usual. I think we really felt the loss of the Ginetta Juniors and Carrera Cup this W/E

As for BTCC I thought race 1 and 3 were pretty decent but I just can’t make my mind up on this option tyre debacle. In 100% results in more overtakes and therefore probably entertainment but I found it really frustrating in race 3 when both Jelly and Morgan had dropped from the front row 5th/6th in several seconds off the lead after about 3 laps. Obviously this is just part an parcel of the Strategy of when to use what tyre.

As for the championship I really do think it’s Suttons unless the fords get pegged back. 3 out of 3 pole positions and 6 out of 9 wins between Cammish and Sutton.

[crmalcolm]

The reason I think it is too early to declare the title? - 2019.

After 9 rounds, Cammish and Jordan were 36 & 37 points adrift of the championship leader, but it still came down to the last few laps of the season to decide the title.

[Sodemo]

Never rule out some behind the scenes TOCA meddling to "even up the show" (like the undeclared Astra throttle bolt of 2001).

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

Every time the Radicals were on track I fell asleep and the less said about the Porsche Caymans the better.

The Caymans were rather strange - the top six-ish were following each other pretty much nose to tail the whole race and yet it seemed completely impossible for them to overtake.

Think the Radicals were fine as a one (or two) off but it wasn’t brilliant, seemed too big a spread of driver ability so most were driving around on their own. Probably didn’t help that they did the introduction feature and then went straight into the highlights and then the lengthy race, probably came to about an hour of them in all. Glad we have the Legends a few more times.

Would like to see a few more BTCC driver interviews spliced in between races, felt like there was a bit of downtime yesterday.

[Mike Harte]

I must admit that I am somewhat frustrated by a number seemingly demanding or hoping that the NAPA cars are hobbled in some ways; this seems to me that they believe that the rules should be created around the lowest common denominator rather than admiring excellence by any team in producing the most competitive car.

I raced a Special Saloon in from 1996 to the last race of the season in 1970 mainly in the Redex Special Saloon Championship. Us competitors had to compete against the driver who was without a doubt the fastest man of his time, Gerry Marshall, with his Vauxhalls. We didn't go crying to the rules setters complaining that we couldn't beat him all the time because they would have just told us to "Have sex and travel". It was up to us to improve our cars to try to get the best of him, and others like the TEAC Team (also raced under differently named entrants) cars that were prepared at Ford's competition HQ at Boreham because one of the drivers was the son of a Ford director.

NAPA have, as the drivers said over the weekend, been preparing the cars and testing them over the winter to produce the package we see now. There was nothing stopping the other teams doing the same.

Can you imagine the furore that would have been created if, during the years that Schumacher or Lewis were dominating F1, the other teams went to the FIA or Mr Ecclestone asking them to peg their cars back so that they could then be more competitive?

It's up to the other teams to pull their fingers out. However, I do think that if Ingram had been feeling better (he was said to be unwell) he might well have been able to spoil NAPA's party even more.