Bankruptcy hearing extended to January 28th (merged)

[Zinger]

What about Atlantics is that part of the sale because I don't remember seeing it in the assets list. If this is the case then CART could claim with the sale of the Assets and assignment of some debt, removal of staff and sale of some expensive contracts they could continue to trade profitabily with Atlantics therefore a chapter 11 is more apropriate than a chapter 7. Although I don't have a great grasp of US laws being from down under.

[GTRMagic]

Originally posted by Dov
What's got you so down, GTR? Can't you smell the methanol!? Can't you hear those turbo engines!? ChampCars WILL be racing in '04!!!

Originally posted by macdaddy
GTR... I hear nothing.
I'm listening, but I hear no fat lady.
Perhaps I do hear something, but it's hard to make out over the whining noise of a distant turbo.
And until that turbo is shut down, I don't think I'll be able to hear that fat lady!

I would like to see C^RT survive into 2004 and stick to the schedule they currently have... but there are sadly some spoilers out there, with the money and legal talent to potentially have the series disappear up its own tailpipe

Its concerning that the turbo engines are in limbo, wanted by one group for their performance , and wanted by another group to spite the first group.

Too many loose ends it seems, and having read the documents around, and the press reports, it may not be as rosy as we would all want to believe.

We shall know soon enough...

[GTRMagic]

Anyone want to read the complaints list from 88 Corp, and a list of assets and contracts the CART Inc legal entity supposedly has in its possession....

http://www.myehud.com/CARTBK/32-csc-...ns-to-sale.pdf

[Dov]

Originally posted by Zinger
What about Atlantics is that part of the sale because I don't remember seeing it in the assets list. If this is the case then CART could claim with the sale of the Assets and assignment of some debt, removal of staff and sale of some expensive contracts they could continue to trade profitabily with Atlantics therefore a chapter 11 is more apropriate than a chapter 7. Although I don't have a great grasp of US laws being from down under.

Hey Zinger, I hope this helps: http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=7441

The Agreement would allow OWRS to purchase the assets of CART, Inc. (“CART”) needed to operate the Champ Car World Series and the stock of Pro-Motion Agency, Inc., a Championship subsidiary that operates the Toyota Atlantics series. In addition, OWRS will assume from Championship and CART their rights and obligations under certain promoter, sponsor and other contracts. If the transaction is completed, OWRS intends to continue to operate the Champ Car World Series and the Toyota Atlantic series.

[Dov]

Originally posted by Emfa
Not yet, but there seems to be some indication that they will...

Hi Emfa, I looked into it and found out that you are correct....thanks for your help.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by rush1
I do agree it would be fun to talk to Mario and maybe some of the other team principals that bankrupted CART in 2003. Ask Mario why Derrick Walker and Carl Haas received $10.5 million from CART's rapidly dwindling cash reserves. It must of been from their stellar work on the board. Maybe ask him why Gerald Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi and Kirk Kalhoven received $7 million from CART in 2003. http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/100422-2347-036.html

Add the $42,000 dollars per car per race and these boys pocketed some serious cash. And they still owe Forsythe over a million dollars in purse winnings! I find it somewhat ironic that many of you find Tony George the boogeyman when these boys split up the cash among themselves instead of giving it to CART shareholders.

Kenneth Lay would be proud.

A very interesting article to say the least. Did anyone else take the time to read it? Or do we conveniently stay away from stories that might make this whole deal look alittle less than savory?

Same old corporate greed story, the "players" get the golden parachute, and the small investor who made the series by giving their hard earned money to it, get screwed.

No wonder these guys don't want to give up this series...

[Dov]

Forget it...wrong topic.

[Dov]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
Anyone want to read the complaints list from 88 Corp, and a list of assets and contracts the CART Inc legal entity supposedly has in its possession....

http://www.myehud.com/CARTBK/32-csc-...ns-to-sale.pdf

I'm having trouble opening this file. Does anybody have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Dov

[Dov]

Originally posted by GP Racer
A very interesting article to say the least. Did anyone else take the time to read it? Or do we conveniently stay away from stories that might make this whole deal look alittle less than savory?

Same old corporate greed story, the "players" get the golden parachute, and the small investor who made the series by giving their hard earned money to it, get screwed.

No wonder these guys don't want to give up this series...

This Dave Thomas should have got out a year ago while the getting was good! He new what shape CART was in as did all the other stockholders.....they had a choice, but they made the wrong one....

[dirtfan]

The wrong choice they made was listening to Chris Pook, Joe Heitzler et al.
Maybe they also read this forum and believed all the rosy predictions!

[Flatspot]

Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the guy in the article at all. Everyone has known for a long time that C^RT was a very high risk investment. If they didn't they shouldn't have been in in the first place particularly in light of the fact that this guy, who works in the business. Anyone who follows the business at all knew there was going to be a serious cash burn in 2003.

Normally my business is not public information but frankly, I threw some serious cash at this stock. Like the guy in the article I am losing it in the bankruptcy. The difference is I'm not going to whine about it because I knew that it was a high risk venture but had potential for great gain. I bet, I lost. Them's the breaks.

Between Haas, Forsythe,Walker,Gentilozzi& Kalkhoven, they ran how many cars? How much did they receive? How much does it cost to field a car? You know what guys, racing costs money and when you win you should be paid. Should Haas be ashamed of that or anyone else for that matter.

What these guys have done is so far from the Kenneth Lay's of the world it's incredible. Anything to be negative ...eh Rush. Bummer, most certainly, unsavory, hardly.

[indycool]

The Indy Star story leading off with Dave Thomas is an old one and has been around for awhile.

Everyone here is correct and at other fora who discussed it at the time that everyone had choices to make regarding how they handled their stock.

However, there is some credence to CART's leaders not telling the truth and misrepresenting things. When Pook told the shareholders at the annual meeting that there was enough cash to run 2004, then CART had to CYA a week later and say it didn't, that was a lie and a misrepresentation. Other things such as attendance figures that are reported one way on cart.com and other ways in public documents to government agencies, the cheerleading at town meetings, etc., are suspect, too. So are things like giving Walker, a BoD member, $5.9 million to start the season and not specifying what it was for in its 10Qs.

You can't do that with a public company. It has elements of fraud. THAT is what's being challenged by stories such as this

[Jay]

Maybe in the ideal worried those things would all be reported as is to shareholders in an itemized fashion; however, at least in high-tech, that sort of thing (chearleading, giving out money without reporting it) is done routinely and considered to be the norm by, at least one huge telcom company I know of - I assume they all have similar practices though. In fact, in high-tech, if it wasnt' for chearleading and in many cases giving false expectations we likely would have never had the boom we did a few years ago. Unfortunately, some companies thought the gravy train was infinite and went too far...

I'm not promoting corporate fraud, but I do think a little perspective is necessary. Compared to most large publicly traded companies in North America, I think CART's been pretty honest to its shareholders actually. In fact, in some ways suprisingly honest...

[Flatspot]

Originally posted by Jay
I think CART's been pretty honest to its shareholders actually. In fact, in some ways suprisingly honest...

I agree.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Flatspot
Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the guy in the article at all. Everyone has known for a long time that C^RT was a very high risk investment. If they didn't they shouldn't have been in in the first place particularly in light of the fact that this guy, who works in the business. Anyone who follows the business at all knew there was going to be a serious cash burn in 2003.

Normally my business is not public information but frankly, I threw some serious cash at this stock. Like the guy in the article I am losing it in the bankruptcy. The difference is I'm not going to whine about it because I knew that it was a high risk venture but had potential for great gain. I bet, I lost. Them's the breaks.

Between Haas, Forsythe,Walker,Gentilozzi& Kalkhoven, they ran how many cars? How much did they receive? How much does it cost to field a car? You know what guys, racing costs money and when you win you should be paid. Should Haas be ashamed of that or anyone else for that matter.

What these guys have done is so far from the Kenneth Lay's of the world it's incredible. Anything to be negative ...eh Rush. Bummer, most certainly, unsavory, hardly.

You say that everyone knew the risks, but apparently the only ones at risk of losing their money, was the small investor.

PG and company didn't seem to risk anything, did they? And actually, I do think that Haas and the others should be abit ashamed to take the money, when all the people(like yourself)who invested to keep the series going, lost everything.

Sorry, but it still sounds abit unsavory...

[Flatspot]

Well this is the upside to this forum. We can have a gentlemen's disagreement and nobody needs get all uptight about it.

It seems PG and company, or another bidder, are about to risk a fair amount. Maybe not in initial cost but in either ongoing operational costs or possibly costs of suit not to operate and defaulting on a number of purchased agreements.

And yes, entering a team at all is a big risk. You never know when a rookie is going to put your man in the wall so hard the tub is worthless, and the like. What's a quick $250,000 faux pas on the weekend. Even if that kind of thing doesn't happen I can't beleive a guy like Kalkhoven made money racing C^RT this year, nor Forsythe when you take into account all the money he has poured into Mexico etc. etc. Walker must have lost his butt picking up Reynard and keeping some diversity in the series. So C^RT helped him some, I see no harm.

The only one on the list above who I don't see as taking huge risk (and a bath) beyond that of operating a team is Haas. He kept his mouth shut, quietly made management nervous he may defect, cut himself an excellant deal to stay, had a great season to boot and made some serious money. That to me is nothing more than good business.

Reality, as unsavory as it may sound, is not that the small investor invested to keep the series alive, they did it to make money and it didn't work out. This is the plain and simple truth.

[GTRMagic]

Originally posted by Dov
I'm having trouble opening this file. Does anybody have any suggestions?

Thanks,
Dov

Did you get it to work?

[GP Racer]

I hear what your saying flatspot, but doesn't all of the companies assets get frozen after a company files chapter 11? Doesn't that mean that a judge decides where the assets go, and that the stockholders have as much right to that money as a team owner? I mean, you shouldn't be able to collect prize money from a bankrupt company, can you?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but the way it looks right now, is that OWRS is only putting up their 2003(free)prize money, to start this venture with, and get the 2004 season started. Its not like their using their "own" money, so to speak. And if they can't cut a profit, then what will they do? Keep financing it from their own pockets?

[Dov]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
Did you get it to work?

Not yet.

[Flatspot]

Dov,
It works fine for me but I downloaded the latest version of Acrobat about a week ago. Maybe you need to see if there is an update your missing. You did realize it is a .pdf, yes?

[Dov]

Hi Flatspot, yes I do know it's a .pdf.....downloading the latest version of Acrobat sounds like a good idea. Thanks for your help.

Cheers,
Dov

[dirtfan]

I understand it's caveat emptor and all that, but when the CEO claims there are funds for the entire 2004 season, and a week later it's revised to "bankrupt before 2004", it does bring their integrity into question.
"I did not have sex with that woman"

[indycool]

I respectfully disagree that lying and bordering on, if not actually executing, fraud is acceptable behavior for CART, Pook, OWRS, Gentilozzi, my bartender, my barber, a cab driver or a hooker, regardless of circumstances. Sorry. I just can't abide by it.

[GTRMagic]

I wouldnt call it fraud exactly.... but then again I dont think I would let these people run a business I had equity in either

[indycool]

I didn't call it fraud, exactly, although it may well be proven to be, exactly, if Vannini or someone sets out to prove it.