ALMS 2012 Discussion

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Can't really get excited about more Spec LMPCrash cars in the field. Should make the races more "fun" for the LMP1 and GTE drivers though.

[Jonerz]

Hopefully as competition increases in that class, the driving standards improve. That would be positive for three reasons: 1) more V8-powered (that sound like V8s) prototypes, 2) more competitive racing and 3)less headaches for GT and LMP.

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Rocketsports LMP-C? I just can't seem to find words to describe my level of excitement.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Rocketsports LMP-C? I just can't seem to find words to describe my level of excitement.

It's...SPEC-tacular!

Ok, I bet you guys saw that coming. But, seriously, RSR running an LMPC probably brings more excitement to the ALMS than RSR continuing to flog those Jags around. I just hope RSR is a little more successful running spec LMPCs than they were running spec Champ Cars.

But, yeah, I've guess we've seen more teams moving down to LMPC from real classes than going the other way. I guess the argument to that is that teams like RSR and Intersport would have gone away completely without the spec classes. Hooray progress then!

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by AGD

I just hope RSR is a little more successful running spec LMPCs than they were running spec Champ Cars.

Well, they actually managed to win a race back in the de-facto Spec Lola CC days. 'Course, ol' Paulie was also a series owner, and it's amazing what a difference that tends to make in his team's performance...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by extramundane

Well, they actually managed to win a race back in the de-facto Spec Lola CC days. 'Course, ol' Paulie was also a series owner, and it's amazing what a difference that tends to make in his team's performance...

And didn't he also have Timo Glock in the car, who was a rather decent driver by the CC-standards of the time?

But in general I agree, Rocketsport has not been a horrible team before the Jaguar project, they were pretty successful for quite a long time in Trans-Am...

[Fogelhund]

Frankly, as poor as the Jag effort was, I'd rather see the two Jags again, instead of a single spec class car. At least the Jags sounded great when they were actually on the track, and added some diversity to the grid. Yet another spec car that will be invisible to many when on the track... meh.

All I can hope for at this point is that GT is mega, and the broadcast (whatever that might be) focuses on this. LMP1, what two and three cars and customer cars at that, LMP2... I just can't get excited about it, and the Challenge cars are just filler.

I've been thinking about it some lately, both the ALMS and Grand Am. Grand Am came out with a remarkable improvement in the aesthetics of their Prototypes... having said that, the Corvette body and Riley are near impossible to tell apart, and the Corvette barely looks like a Corvette. They are all privateer entries. The ALMS, what with HPD, Lola's, Oreca's.. and whatever else privateer kits cars there are... not really in better shape.

Over all the years, think of all the fan favourite cars, the ones that bring out the fans, and that we love. McLaren, Porsche 917/30, UOP Shadow Can-Am cars... rarely will people mention a Lola or March, or McKee Can Am. The Porsche 917k, Ferrari 512P... Porsche 962, Jaguar Group C/GTP cars, Nissan same, Mazda 787, Toyota GTP... who will bring up the Interpid or.... Toyota GT ONE, Mercedes CLx, Porsche 911 GT1, Bentley, BMW LMR, Audi Rx, Peugeot 908, Ferrari 333SP... who brings up the Riley mkIII, Lola B2K....

..and there lies the problem with both the ALMS and Grand Am now.... Nothing at the front of the grid to really cheer for in these glorious factory chassis. At least we've got GT, but they aren't the focus at all... if the ALMS loses BMW and Corvette, really the series is in serious trouble IMHO. Sure, it will survive, and continue on in some mostly amateur, spec dominated capacity, but the interest level by many.... It takes a long time to build up popularity, and to some degree to tear that popularity down as well. People are losing interest now, have lost interest, and will continue to lose interest.

I've been pretty passionate about the ALMS, and the sport for some time, maybe even angry at times at the mismanagement. I've been a fan of sportscar racing since the seventies... Didn't pay much attention to the WSC era, as it wasn't that interesting to me, kind of feel like this is much the same... though if you look at the premier category car counts, this is worse.

Maybe its time?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, as poor as the Jag effort was, I'd rather see the two Jags again, instead of a single spec class car. At least the Jags sounded great when they were actually on the track, and added some diversity to the grid. Yet another spec car that will be invisible to many when on the track... meh.

All I can hope for at this point is that GT is mega, and the broadcast (whatever that might be) focuses on this. LMP1, what two and three cars and customer cars at that, LMP2... I just can't get excited about it, and the Challenge cars are just filler.

I've been thinking about it some lately, both the ALMS and Grand Am. Grand Am came out with a remarkable improvement in the aesthetics of their Prototypes... having said that, the Corvette body and Riley are near impossible to tell apart, and the Corvette barely looks like a Corvette. They are all privateer entries. The ALMS, what with HPD, Lola's, Oreca's.. and whatever else privateer kits cars there are... not really in better shape.

Over all the years, think of all the fan favourite cars, the ones that bring out the fans, and that we love. McLaren, Porsche 917/30, UOP Shadow Can-Am cars... rarely will people mention a Lola or March, or McKee Can Am. The Porsche 917k, Ferrari 512P... Porsche 962, Jaguar Group C/GTP cars, Nissan same, Mazda 787, Toyota GTP... who will bring up the Interpid or.... Toyota GT ONE, Mercedes CLx, Porsche 911 GT1, Bentley, BMW LMR, Audi Rx, Peugeot 908, Ferrari 333SP... who brings up the Riley mkIII, Lola B2K....

..and there lies the problem with both the ALMS and Grand Am now.... Nothing at the front of the grid to really cheer for in these glorious factory chassis. At least we've got GT, but they aren't the focus at all... if the ALMS loses BMW and Corvette, really the series is in serious trouble IMHO. Sure, it will survive, and continue on in some mostly amateur, spec dominated capacity, but the interest level by many.... It takes a long time to build up popularity, and to some degree to tear that popularity down as well. People are losing interest now, have lost interest, and will continue to lose interest.

I've been pretty passionate about the ALMS, and the sport for some time, maybe even angry at times at the mismanagement. I've been a fan of sportscar racing since the seventies... Didn't pay much attention to the WSC era, as it wasn't that interesting to me, kind of feel like this is much the same... though if you look at the premier category car counts, this is worse.

Maybe its time?

I feel the same way about both ALMS and Rolex, sure they produce good racing sometimes, but there is really nothing "special" about it anymore. Sadly, I feel GT in the ALMS will decline before it gets better, although GA finally has a good GT class. WSC at least had some spectacular battles like Olds vs Ferrari and Ford vs Ferrari. The current ALMS LMP and GA DP battles for the most part are just uninteresting to most casual fans.

You don't really have an epic factory/semi-factory battle at the front of these fields anymore. We've gone from Penske Porsche vs Acura vs Audi vs Lola to Muscle Milk HPD vs Dyson Lola Mazda AER in a short matter of time. To be popular, sports car racing in the United States needs "hero cars" in their prototype ranks and they just don't have that right now, and if GTE continues to decline it could get much worse. Something like BPR could fix this, but I can only see it getting worse, at least for ALMS, in the near future.

I am (it would appear I'm not the only one) losing interest in the series, haven't bothered going to a race since 2010 and have no plans to go to one in the near future, but it still produces some great racing with some great cars. I just hope it can survive without becoming a glorified Club Racing Series

[Speed-King]

..and there lies the problem with both the ALMS and Grand Am now.... Nothing at the front of the grid to really cheer for in these glorious factory chassis.

I don't know about that... in Germany a lot of people get misty eyes when they think back to the Group 5 days of the Rennsportmeisterschaft, which was essentially just privateers with Porsche 935s beating up on eachother.

And funny that you mention the McLarens in CanAm... Wasn't that before the advent of Porsche an all privateer/privateer-constructor series also?

I think if the cars are spectacular enough and you have larger than life driver and team-owner-characters people get just as emotionally attached as to the big factory battles.

The advantage of the factory battles is the manufacturers' marketing budget that can be used to bring in the casuals and which in turn makes the races a lot more like true sporting rather than club events.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't know about that... in Germany a lot of people get misty eyes when they think back to the Group 5 days of the Rennsportmeisterschaft, which was essentially just privateers with Porsche 935s beating up on eachother.

And funny that you mention the McLarens in CanAm... Wasn't that before the advent of Porsche an all privateer/privateer-constructor series also?

I think if the cars are spectacular enough and you have larger than life driver and team-owner-characters people get just as emotionally attached as to the big factory battles.

The advantage of the factory battles is the manufacturers' marketing budget that can be used to bring in the casuals and which in turn makes the races a lot more like true sporting rather than club events.

This as well, for example, if NASCAR had a field of Greg Biffles and Chip Ganassi's, they would be nowhere near as popular as they are.

[Dyson Mazda]

I just posted this on the ALMS forum but the best case for sports cars in America right now would be a merger that looks something like this (even though I know Grand Am would never go for it). Having the Rolex 24, 12 Hours of Sebring, 6 Hours at the Glenn, and 10 Hours at Road Atlanta would do wonders for the sport (plus bringing the Grand Am support races into the fold will make the weekends great).

LMP1 (LMP2 with Pro Drivers and some engine flexibility)*
LMP2 (LMP2 Pro/Am + improved LMPC's)*
GT1 (GTE)
GT2 (Grand Am GT)
* With the holes covered up and the fins cut off

LMP2 > DP since they are cheaper to run, the sports car fans like them a lot better because of the Le Mans connection, and has the momentum of the privateers right now. I cannot remember the last time DP added a new team to the mix and LMP1 is never going to catch on again until the WEC folds.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't know about that... in Germany a lot of people get misty eyes when they think back to the Group 5 days of the Rennsportmeisterschaft, which was essentially just privateers with Porsche 935s beating up on eachother.

And funny that you mention the McLarens in CanAm... Wasn't that before the advent of Porsche an all privateer/privateer-constructor series also?

Porsche 935, a factory nameplate.

McLaren were also essentially a factory entrant... most of the other cars were privateers, yes.

[Acid09]

In all fairness, the DRM was much more than 935s. It had the Turbo Capris, the BMW M1, Lancias, the Toyota Cellica and the second division with all kinds of cars.

So the comparisons is kind of a stretch...

[Jonerz]

Certainly there is something to be said about the hero cars. But IMSA gained reverence and a special place in American hearts with the American-ized Porsche 935 vs. Chevy Decon Monza (one of the most iconic cars in American racing) vs. BMW CSL and only a small few of the entries were factory supported let alone works cars. On top of that, many of the drivers were the Greg Picketts of the world.(My knowledge of Greg Pickett's history starts with the protofab Cougars and the big IMSA Polyvoltac Corvettes but I think he's been around longer than that, with Trans-Am of the 70s... But I digress.) Gentleman drivers, if I didn't make my point.

So if the cars are spectacular and the racing is good, you've won half the battle. I think the ALMS could reignite the passion in fan's hearts if the grid fills out with more HPDs and Lola Mazdas, maybe Lola Toyotas. As nudered as the ALMS is when compared to 2008, if you get a few more devoted sets of professional teams akin to Dyson and Cytosport the cars are still spectacular and the battles would still be top notch.

I would like to see Porsche sell their ex-works LMP1 cars into the ALMS after 2014, a la Audi with the R8. It would be a factory nameplate, fast and pretty leading edge.

If HPD used the Honda nameplate on their cars would that do a lot to inspire Ferrari 333SP levels of awe? Think of the cornering speeds and lap times these cars are capable of, very impressive, you get GT-like brand loyalty in the P cars once more... Is that a step in the right direction?

If you concede that the P cars, while not what they once were are still fabulous and perfectly capable of putting on exciting motor races, the ALMS still has potential to recover if they stick with what they're doing. (I am still a proponent of making the big P cars in IMSA faster, more powerful, louder and such, but with the current management in place that doesn't appear to be on the agenda any time soon.) If the ALMS develops a solid P1 class on its own and doesn't rely on the inclusion of factory cars in the series, the championship could have a strong future with a longer peak than with the two or three year run the ALMS had as the darling of American racing.

Bottom line the ALMS has a good platform with the types of cars (technology friendly) that are legal for the championship. If they can get some rules consistency in place, quell the "they're about to die or sell off" rumors and continue to increase their media presence the championship would start to look more attractive to potential teams (and perhaps teams with existing programs elsewhere).

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Lola - X does not do the trick. It needs to be a factory nameplate at minimum, even such as the Porsche Spyder of Muscle Milk. ... a Honda x, will never have the draw a Ferrari Y will. IMSA GT was popular, but not in comparison to GTP, or Can Am before it. I like the GT's, but it is the fast Protos that draw the big crowds.

[joeb]

I'm going to be diverging from the currently discussed topic with this, but, Conquest has confirmed their entrance into the ALMS full season with the Oak/Morgan LMP2. They are signing drivers as I write this and will be at Sebring. Now I may be putting 1 and 1 together to get 3 but there were also messages flying around on Twitter that Eric Lux has reached an ALMS deal. Could these two items be related?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Lola - X does not do the trick.

So what you're saying is we need groups like Lotus and Morgan to come in and rename Lola's and Oaks?

Just kidding, I agree with you. Just this past weekend I was trying to explain sportscar racing to somebody and I mentioned the brands of LMP cars and when I said Lola they said "who?"

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by joeb

there were also messages flying around on Twitter that Eric Lux has reached an ALMS deal. Could these two items be related?

Eric Lux
An FYI for the teams, as of right now, I will be available for Sebring, Laguna & Petit. Please feel free to message me or request my resume. Thanks!
LikeUnlike · ·Follow postUnfollow post · 2 hours ago

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Lola - X does not do the trick. It needs to be a factory nameplate at minimum, even such as the Porsche Spyder of Muscle Milk. ... a Honda x, will never have the draw a Ferrari Y will. IMSA GT was popular, but not in comparison to GTP, or Can Am before it. I like the GT's, but it is the fast Protos that draw the big crowds.

Not sure I follow you there... weren't the glory days of GTP at least as much defined by the likes of Nissan and Toyota and the various Chevy efforts (Vette, Intrepid) than by the Jags and the Porsches? Isn't part of the attraction of prototypes for the masses that the car manufacturers of the car they drive on the road are involved rather than those of the unobtainable luxury brands?

And then, if it is just the name plates, why not do what Grand-Am does and mention the engine maker first? If it would make a live-changing difference for the quality of the series, wouldn't that be worth breaking with the old tradition of putting the chassis-builder first?

[MitchZ06]

Ford-Lola, Chevrolet-Lola, Chrysler-Oreca, etc sounds better than Lola- or Oreca- and the people watching would be more interested no doubt especially if the cars had a subtle difference (say headlights and tail lights or some sidepod differences).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by extramundane

Well, they actually managed to win a race back in the de-facto Spec Lola CC days. 'Course, ol' Paulie was also a series owner, and it's amazing what a difference that tends to make in his team's performance...

Originally Posted by Speed-King

And didn't he also have Timo Glock in the car, who was a rather decent driver by the CC-standards of the time?

But in general I agree, Rocketsport has not been a horrible team before the Jaguar project, they were pretty successful for quite a long time in Trans-Am...

Yes, Glock drove for RSR as did some other pretty good drivers, but yet they rarely had success. I think Glock finished 7th or 8th in the points when he did a full season for RSR (2005? I don't remember). That may sound ok, but remember that the car counts were quite bad during this time. They had a few moments, but all in all, it was a very disappointing effort. Aside from Gentilozzi's role as the Three Amigo's mouthpiece, I think RSR's Champ Car efforts are most remembered for PG not paying his drivers and his odd porn industry sponsorships.

As for factory cars and stuff like that, I think some people are drawn to sports car racing by the factories. That can't be denied. I lost some interest in the sport during the WSC era, but that was mainly because the very high level of professionalism and the hot looking cars of the GTP era were gone. In retrospect, the WSC era did have some pretty good racing so I'm glad that I still had some interest left.

But, anyway, awesome cars (from a sensual and perhaps from a timing perspective) and good competition can still keep sports car racing viable even if there aren't factories. The ALMS has neither in P1. Although the ARXes have been updated over the years, I think many view it as being an old car that is outclassed in Europe. The Dyson Mazola, well, it is what it is. As far as the competition goes, I think the fans realize that P1 is a BoParama between two cars pretty much (or at least two teams) and that isn't very exciting. A field full of ground pounding Lola/Oreca/Riley American V8s mixing it up with V10 Judds and stuff like that probably would not make the ALMS super popular, but it would be a better situation than what we have now. I certainly can't blame anyone who wants to spend their weekends doing something other than watching ALMS races. I question whether it's worth it as well.

[AGD]

In other ALMS news, Jarrett Boon returns to ALMS LMPC with Brent O'Neill's team! I'm sure that has to be considered one of the biggest news stories of the offseason! At least Vera will be sharing the car so maybe they have some hope. I may be wrong, but I think some people are optimistic about Vera's abilities. I don't know.

Also, the ALMS has created a business development position. Brian Skuza will fill the role. I don't know what to make of that, but I guess it can't hurt. At least they did not hire Gene Simmons.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Ford-Lola, Chevrolet-Lola, Chrysler-Oreca, etc sounds better than Lola- or Oreca- and the people watching would be more interested no doubt especially if the cars had a subtle difference (say headlights and tail lights or some sidepod differences).

Anything is better than "well, I had a good battle with the #56 car" or "you know the "#16 ran real good today". It seems Rustyism's are making there way into sports car racing. And I 'effing hate it.

[The Badger]

How do we Europeans feel when we hear car #20 has gone off at turn 7 ?

Whats wrong with quoting a team/chassis ..... and name the bloody corner ffs too !!!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Anything is better than "well, I had a good battle with the #56 car" or "you know the "#16 ran real good today". It seems Rustyism's are making there way into sports car racing. And I 'effing hate it.

"This HPD hotrod was runnin' tonight. Those cats were all over the place behind me, but I told Tucker that I'd put him in the wall if he tried to pass me."

What, you would not like that?

"This is the most exciting Daytona 500 ever!" - Rusty Wallace describing the last lap of the 2006 Indy 500 while broadcasting the race for ABC.