ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

How do we Europeans feel when we hear car #20 has gone off at turn 7 ?

Whats wrong with quoting a team/chassis ..... and name the bloody corner ffs too !!!

On an oval there is only four corners, no need to name them. At Road America, Sebring, Laguna Seca and the like you have Canada Corner, Sunset Bend, the Safety Pin, Tower Turn, Rainey Curve, the Corkscrew... the proper American circuits have corners that are named.

Chris

[Dyson Mazda]

Looks like a LMPC for Bruno and Rocketsports http://twitter.com/#!/BJUNQUEIRA/sta...024000/photo/1

[cmk]

Nice to see Bruno has a ride somewhere, he's got serious talent. Hopefully the LMPC will be a better plan for Rocketsports. Developing a GTE from scratch was clearly beyond them, but they ran Trans-Am cars well so hopefully the spec prototype will be within their comfort zone.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by cmk

Nice to see Bruno has a ride somewhere, he's got serious talent. Hopefully the LMPC will be a better plan for Rocketsports. Developing a GTE from scratch was clearly beyond them, but they ran Trans-Am cars well so hopefully the spec prototype will be within their comfort zone.

Apparently a spec Champ Car and Daytona Prototype program was beyond them as well.

[Fogelhund]

Rocketsports did actually win a race in Champcar....

[Nick6]

To be fair developing a top flight GT car against factory efforts is too much for a lot of teams. The only successful examples of privately built GT cars that I can think of off the top of my head are the PTG BMW's and the Prodrive 550's.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Rocketsports did actually win a race in Champcar....

Blueprint Racing won an IRL race too. And who could forget the legendary Buzz Calkins winning an IRL race. I don't think we should look too much into one Champ Car win 8 years ago when RSR beat the "great" Rodolfo Lavin given their usual mediocrity in a mediocre Champ Car field.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by AGD

Blueprint Racing won an IRL race too. And who could forget the legendary Buzz Calkins winning an IRL race. I don't think we should look too much into one Champ Car win 8 years ago when RSR beat the "great" Rodolfo Lavin given their usual mediocrity in a mediocre Champ Car field.

They have a better record than Conquest has during their open wheel tenure

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

They have a better record than Conquest has during their open wheel tenure

Yes, but it's like we're comparing the careers of Hiro Matsu****a and Shiggy Hattori. It's like saying Autocon's orange slug is better than the AMR-One. It may be true, but is it really much of a statement?

[Dyson Mazda]

Why do fans feel the need to hate on teams in the ALMS? This is getting kind of old at this point. RSR was in way over their heads with the Jaguar GTE project and it was kind of a disaster from day 1, but they are committed to staying in the sport that we all love. Why can we not be happy with that?

[Purist]

Also, Rocketsports proved quite capable with the Oldsmobile Cutlasses in IMSA GT and the Chevrolets and Jaguars in Trans-Am, where Paul had quite a respectable record BEFORE he had an ownership stake in the series. Sheesh!

We have the Honda brand back in the series full-time. It looks like we may well have Lotus and Morgan badges this year, and perhaps one or two other additions. That's at least two nameplates that carry some real weight in the automotive market, and certainly in the performance car market.

BTW, Baltimore has a new promoter, so it looks MUCH better for us having a 10-race calendar this season.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

but they are committed to staying in the sport that we all love. Why can we not be happy with that?

Hey, that's fine. Fans aren't going to get excited about an LMPC team, especially one who is dropping to LMPC from a real class, but at least it's something. Maybe LMPC will be more friendly to RSR. The bottom line though is that RSR does not have the most glorious record on the track in the last decade or so and their reputation in the paddock isn't so hot either.

Originally Posted by Purist

It looks like we may well have Lotus and Morgan badges this year, and perhaps one or two other additions. That's at least two nameplates that carry some real weight in the automotive market, and certainly in the performance car market.

I'm not sure if anyone takes Lotus' racing programs seriously these days, but at least the Evora is a real Lotus and not a rebadge unless you want to look at the Evora's engine. Of course, we'll have to see if it ever shows up. The Ian Dawson situation seems to have evaporated. Maybe someone else will run them, but that is not clear at the moment.

[Jonerz]

I'm excited for RSR's prospects from the competitive side. I think Kenny Wilden and Bruno Junqueira were being wasted in the under performing Jags. Hopefully the RSR PC effort is two cars, and hopefully Kenny can still be involved. I will also be interested to see PJ Jones if he returns and how much pace he still has.

But no, they're not switching to a car that will draw extra interest to the series, and a lot of people will miss the green cars simply for their name and the brand history. I will be one of the people who misses the green cars purely for their exhaust note. With the Robertsons not returning and the Jags gone, that is two unique exhaust notes not back with the championship, which is unfortunate.

I'm still pretty stoked for 2012, though.

Chris

[DeathOrGlory]

Did Jaguar spend actual money on that GTE car anyway? From their performance, I don't think they did!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Did Jaguar spend actual money on that GTE car anyway? From their performance, I don't think they did!

Well, they sent RSR checks at least. Was it enough money? I don't know, but it was something. Jaguar even spent money marketing the program in 2010. They probably realized that was a mistake once they saw the results on the track.

[seanyb505]

The only money was either Paul's or Jaguar's money. I think PJ told me the only thing (sponsorship-wise) on the car was Jaguar's name. I've got to say I'm not fond of the move, since this will take just a little more media attention to a class I don't quite care about.

[Dyson Mazda]

I feel like LMPC is killing LMP2 right now (which I think we can all agree is a real class). LMPC is where all of the competition is right now and if I am a rich dude I do not care what the fans want me to run. If you look at the LMP2 numbers in Europe they are staggering right now and I think that is the direction the series needs to push for from 2013 on wards. The LMPC contract is up in 2012 and they just need to combine them with LMP2 for a grandfathered period (maybe 2 years). I think a bigger wing and a smaller restrictor would probably put them where they need to be performance wise.

[lms]

the lmpc-lmp2 merger would be a stupid move imho, because despite the dominance of the oreca 03 there is still a lot of variety in p2 when you look at the chassi and engines (well, the chassi at least) , the same cannot be said for lmpc. The cars are more developed in p2 (except the norma) and not using the ancient courage chassis, they look better, have more speed and df than the challange cars have. ALMS and other series needs to build on this success and encourage teams to move up to this class from lmpc, gtc or from other series. And I wouldnt say lmp2 is dying, there are dozens of teams in the category. There just happens to be more lmpc cars in ALMS (how many lmpc teams confirmed for ELMS?), but at the same time, lmp2 is expanding too, just at a slower rate (the class starts from 0-1 cars as seen last year, so it will take time I guess). The ACO needs to bring more contructors into this; im sure after the success in 2012, we might see some new lmp2s.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I feel like LMPC is killing LMP2 right now (which I think we can all agree is a real class). LMPC is where all of the competition is right now and if I am a rich dude I do not care what the fans want me to run. If you look at the LMP2 numbers in Europe they are staggering right now and I think that is the direction the series needs to push for from 2013 on wards. The LMPC contract is up in 2012 and they just need to combine them with LMP2 for a grandfathered period (maybe 2 years). I think a bigger wing and a smaller restrictor would probably put them where they need to be performance wise.

I think LMPC will be in ALMS until the end of the recently extended homologation period, which is either to or through 2014.

The advantage that class has over LMP2 is initial cost, maintenance intervals, long lasting spec tires, and durability which makes for significantly less cost over the course of the program. Perhaps ALMS-only close to production (not GTE motors) stock blocks for LMP2 is a way to move in the future.

A lot of classes have been in direct competition with eachother in the series, but the closeness in appearance, overall lap time and both being low cost makes P2 and PC the closest any two classes have been in ALMS history.

Chris

[AGD]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

The only money was either Paul's or Jaguar's money. I think PJ told me the only thing (sponsorship-wise) on the car was Jaguar's name. I've got to say I'm not fond of the move, since this will take just a little more media attention to a class I don't quite care about.

I seem to remember that Gentilozzi had at least one family member (and maybe multiple) in charge of fairly heavy development of the Jag like the engine. Whether he chose family because his family members are the best people for the job, because they were the only ones willing to work for his wages, or if it was pure nepotism, I don't know. Perhaps it could explain their problems though.

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I feel like LMPC is killing LMP2 right now (which I think we can all agree is a real class).

I don't know. I'm kind of liking LMPC more than I used to especially compared to P2. P2 is a very politicized class in terms of what is cost-capped and what isn't cost-capped, what is street based and what isn't (or whatever the terminology is), and there are problems with the turbo regulations as well. I believe some parts are homologated for the season and that can be trouble for teams who choose the wrong parts at the start of the year. They're kind of stuck with it. BoP is on the table in P2 so it's like a spec class that isn't spec. Ok, the cars may look and sound different, but it's the same philosophically as a spec class. It's kind of like a DP in that way. P2 may not have spec tires, but it seems that Dunlop is going to provide tires for nearly everyone with the Michelin pullout. On top of all of that, the P2s will have the BHHs and BHFs and those do not look good on the P2 spyders. I believe the LMPCs will keep the aero package from last year. There isn't a huge time gap between the two classes anyway.

Long story short, do I approve of the LMPCs? No, but I'm not going to pretend that P2 is a quantum leap from LMPC either. At least we can filter the politics out of LMPC. To that extent, it may be the most legitimate class in ACO style racing.

[GT-Eins]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I feel like LMPC is killing LMP2 right now (which I think we can all agree is a real class). LMPC is where all of the competition is right now and if I am a rich dude I do not care what the fans want me to run. If you look at the LMP2 numbers in Europe they are staggering right now and I think that is the direction the series needs to push for from 2013 on wards. The LMPC contract is up in 2012 and they just need to combine them with LMP2 for a grandfathered period (maybe 2 years). I think a bigger wing and a smaller restrictor would probably put them where they need to be performance wise.

Europe shows that there are other reasons why LMPC is more popular than LMP2 (in the moment)
LMPC is a "beginners-class" which will promote teams upwards to LMP
Level 5 got that way and others inted to follow (Core f.e. expressed the wish to do so once the necessary money is there).
I think one of the reasons is support.
While Oreca is an european manufacturer it is one of the only with an on-track support at the ALMS-races - as is Lola
With the Conquest-Onroak link there is the chance that a 3rd manufacturer now steps in.
A boost for LMP2 would be if Riley as only american constructor steps in - but they have no support-team yet (and even no car - just some plans)
Also if someone decides to use the Roush-engine the class would gain momentum

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by AGD

P2 is a very politicized class in terms of what is cost-capped and what isn't cost-capped, what is street based and what isn't

I think those were issues with the transition from old to new regs, all the cars will now be homologated as cost-capped when their papers are reissued with the fins. The street-based engine rule will be the same, I think everyone is now using the Zytek-Nissan or Judd-BMW unit.

I think LMPC has now served its purpose, bearing in mind it was introduced as a cost-capped class which has now been superceded by new P2 regs, but they need to announce that it won't exist as a separate class when its license runs out SOON, to give teams time to find their way into P2 without forcing it on them 2 months before the season begins... in their usual style.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I think those were issues with the transition from old to new regs, all the cars will now be homologated as cost-capped when their papers are reissued with the fins. The street-based engine rule will be the same, I think everyone is now using the Zytek-Nissan or Judd-BMW unit.

The issue is that cars that perhaps aren't cost-capped are classified as being cost-capped. I think it was Greaves who said that the Norma is the only car that meets the spirit of the cost-capped rules. The Zytek that Greaves ran last year started it's life as a non-cost-capped P2 car. Then there are odd situations like the RLR MG Lola that was not given cost-capped status (and I've been told it won't this year either if Guess Europ runs it) even though it probably deserved it as much as any of the other Lolas and other cars. I don't know if the manufacturers are playing games with how the prices of the cars and parts are determined or what.

As for the engines, the HPD units are still quite popular in the ALMS. Level 5 and Black Swan will be using them. Of course, the ALMS can change the ACO's regulations as they see fit so perhaps ALMS teams believe that IMSA will make the regs "right" even if the ACO does not. Perhaps the most intriguing team running in Europe, Starworks, is running HPDs as well. They're American too, but it's not like everyone is running the BMW and Nissan engines. Perhaps the reason why we don't see more HPDs and stuff like the Roush Fords are because of the rules. To that extent, the ACO is almost forcing the issue in terms of making P2 a spec-like class when it does not necessarily have to be that.

I think LMPC has now served its purpose, bearing in mind it was introduced as a cost-capped class which has now been superceded by new P2 regs, but they need to announce that it won't exist as a separate class when its license runs out SOON, to give teams time to find their way into P2 without forcing it on them 2 months before the season begins... in their usual style.

The ALMS extended the homologation of the LMPCs last year so I would not expect them to go anywhere anytime soon. There are rumors that the ALMS LMPC grid size could boom this season. I don't know about the ELMS, but it certainly seems like the ALMS is in no hurry to get rid of LMPC. Well, all I can say is that at least the LMPCs will be the best looking prototypes on the grid for the next couple of years at least if the BHF and BHHs aren't mandated for them.

[96290]

PC homologation is extended all over the world.

There must come a point were ALMS PC teams switch over to LMP2 in greater numbers, isn't Core moving in 2013. I think some teams are in a holding state making the most of the cars they have and waiting for LMP2 to get moving.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by 96290

There must come a point were ALMS PC teams switch over to LMP2 in greater numbers, isn't Core moving in 2013. I think some teams are in a holding state making the most of the cars they have and waiting for LMP2 to get moving.

We've seen teams move up to P2 from the Challenge classes, but we've also seen teams move down to the Challenge classes. It's been a mixed bag in that regard, but I'm sure the ALMS' argument would be that the teams moving down would have quit ALMS racing completely if it wasn't for the Challenge classes.

LMPC teams like Core and BAR1 have certainly shown interest in P2. I would not be surprised if Core did move up in 2013. Some teams may find it difficult to want to move up from the very comfortable confines of LMPC even if P2 is fairly stable. One of the problems the ALMS probably has is making sure the teams that do move up will move up within the ALMS and not move to WEC P2 or something like that. We saw that with Gonzalez/Greaves.