Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[Matt]

That cockpit is gonna have to be moved back on the real car compared to the render.

Looks like a Land Speed Record car.

[deltawing]

Hi Matt,

How much further back do you think it needs to move? I was using the initial single sitter for reference, see them here next to each other, with the red circle being the driver's helmet. Here:



Is the windshield going to be more upright? I guess we have to wait and see what the real thing is going to be, but is fun exploring.

Cheers.

.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Hi Matt,

How much further back do you think it needs to move? I was using the initial single sitter for reference, see them here next to each other, with the red circle being the driver's helmet. Here:



Is the windshield going to be more upright? I guess we have to wait and see what the real thing is going to be, but is fun exploring.

Cheers.

.

A Racing for Holland entry.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by skycafe

A Racing for Holland entry.

I used to route them on, the little team that could, with their Dome. One year the black and white boxes were shaped to make the car look like a soccer ball. World Cup year maybe? Last time I remember seeing Jan race was 2008 with Horag in the RS Spyder.

Sorry for the OT.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Matt

That cockpit is gonna have to be moved back on the real car compared to the render.

Looks like a Land Speed Record car.

Why does the cockpit have to be moved back?

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

I used to route them on, the little team that could, with their Dome. One year the black and white boxes were shaped to make the car look like a soccer ball. World Cup year maybe?

Off topic:
That year they were tied with the Johan Cruijff foundation, the charity organisation of Holland's greatest football player of all time (also biggest ego of all time ). They had startnumber 14, his worldfamous number at Ajax, and the money for the two biggest sponsorplaces to be auctioned of, went to the JC foundation.

[Jacques Rabbit]

A pair of silly questions from someone who wishes he had more time to stay up to date on these things, but it's that time of the year (not to be confused with that time of the month, which just so happens to transpire every time HORNDAWG replies to one of my posts...sorry, LP ):

1. Does Nissan have exclusivity on the DeltaWing? Just playing with the suggestion that the coupe is for Dempsey, as it may be, would it be possible to use a Skyactiv-D engine in it? I'd find that really cool, but I don't know the feasibility of it all.

2. Did we ever find out if DeltaWing was going to be a homologated LMP2, or a separate class? I'm assuming that we did, since cars are being ordered, and I just missed it.

Cheers.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Jacques, Nissan is just a sponsorship arrangement and an engine supplier for last season, which is why I speculated Dempsey may be the coupe customer. It is not homologated to any class although the tub is a Aston AMR-One, homlogated as a P1. I would bet it will be included in "P2" which can deviate from LMP2. The LMPC teams would likely cry foul it is was bunched with them.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Jacques, Nissan is just a sponsorship arrangement and an engine supplier for last season, which is why I speculated Dempsey may be the coupe customer. It is not homologated to any class although the tub is a Aston AMR-One, homlogated as a P1. I would bet it will be included in "P2" which can deviate from LMP2. The LMPC teams would likely cry foul it is was bunched with them.

Right, thanks. I liked your speculation; I think it's an interesting idea and it makes sense to me.

Rephrased: when the ALMS homologate DeltaWing as a chassis, what engines will be allowed to run in it? It would seem inequitable, or at least entirely of a different purpose, if DeltaWing could plop any P2 motor in it. That's where I was trying to go and didn't phrase clearly.

I guess it would depend on whether there's an intention for a pure-spec DeltaWing class, an intention for a wide-open DeltaWing experimental class, or an intention to run these cars as LMP2s.

A Mazda Skyactiv-D DeltaWing coupe would make me absolutely thrilled because I always root for the Mazdas, and the DeltaWing is my favorite car. I just don't know if it would be legal, but I guess we have to see the details of DeltaWing's pending homologation.

[Canada ALMS fan]

I really hope the Deltawing is grouped with the P2 cars, not a spec class. Part of the point of it was smaller displacement, less horsepower, so not sure how they would balance the Mazda diesel as well as the Nissan 1.6L w/ the P2 cars? Sure would be neat to see it with different powerplants though. They might be smart to cater to Mazda as they are one of the manufacturers supporting both series, albeit on a small scale. More manufacturers involved the proto classes is a positive for the long term success of the new series.

[deltawing]

They don't even have to wait for Mazda to get involved later. Nissan make a great turbo diesel, named M9R. It is 2.0 engine, 4 cyl. and it goes into variety of cars. In one of the versions it is offered at 180 HP in stock form. I would guess if Nissan wanted to experiment with a diesel in the DW car, they could make it happen before anyone else. It would make such an interesting racing machine.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Nissan is just a sponsorship arrangement and an engine supplier for last season.

Without going through the torture of rereading this thread, I thought the engine used was a bespoke design by RML that sourced noyhing from Nissan ('sept money)?

[optica]

The purpose of the DeltaWing was to achieve what it does using no more than 300bhp so I guess that sets the parameter for any other power unit that might be used, whatever its capacity. I hope that running the DW(s) in with P2 during 2013 will only be a stepping stone for a proper LMP Eco class with 500kg, 300bhp, 4 wheels & freedom for maximum innovation that might be in place for 2014. For those convinced that a full width fronted car can match the DW for performance will then have a chance to prove it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by optica

The purpose of the DeltaWing was to achieve what it does using no more than 300bhp so I guess that sets the parameter for any other power unit that might be used, whatever its capacity. I hope that running the DW(s) in with P2 during 2013 will only be a stepping stone for a proper LMP Eco class with 500kg, 300bhp, 4 wheels & freedom for maximum innovation that might be in place for 2014. For those convinced that a full width fronted car can match the DW for performance will then have a chance to prove it.

Yes, now you are talking!

[lms]

Originally Posted by optica

The purpose of the DeltaWing was to achieve what it does using no more than 300bhp so I guess that sets the parameter for any other power unit that might be used, whatever its capacity. I hope that running the DW(s) in with P2 during 2013 will only be a stepping stone for a proper LMP Eco class with 500kg, 300bhp, 4 wheels & freedom for maximum innovation that might be in place for 2014. For those convinced that a full width fronted car can match the DW for performance will then have a chance to prove it.

that would certainly kill off the most popular class at le mans (because of rising costs), the aco would be stupid to do this. the lmp eco class is called lmp1. keep this bull**** car in grand am. just because they destroyed a once great championship in na doesnt mean they have to do the same with a currently very popular class. I hope the new p2 regs will stay close to the current ones.

[TF110]

The new p1 rules aren't revolutionary. Slightly less narrow cars. Only 50kg less weight. Hybrid power not increased as much as possible. Aero rules still overbody biased etc. A concept like the dw is cool even if not eye pleasing. 700kg cars with even 500hp and the hybrid drives would be a huge difference. Guess we'll have to wait another 4+ years to see where it goes.

[Durandal7]

Originally Posted by optica

I hope that running the DW(s) in with P2 during 2013 will only be a stepping stone for a proper LMP Eco class with 500kg, 300bhp, 4 wheels & freedom for maximum innovation that might be in place for 2014. For those convinced that a full width fronted car can match the DW for performance will then have a chance to prove it.

I'd say replace the 300hp limit with a maximum fuel flow per second limit(with energy equivalent limits for alternative fuels) to encourage development of more efficient powerplants, but otherwise that would be pretty much perfect.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by lms

that would certainly kill off the most popular class at le mans (because of rising costs), the aco would be stupid to do this. the lmp eco class is called lmp1. keep this bull**** car in grand am. just because they destroyed a once great championship in na doesnt mean they have to do the same with a currently very popular class. I hope the new p2 regs will stay close to the current ones.

the DW isn't a Grand-Am car...

[lms]

Originally Posted by Matt

the DW isn't a Grand-Am car...

it will most likely race in the "merged" series in '14. i call it grand am for now because most likely the top class will be dp.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

The new p1 rules aren't revolutionary. Slightly less narrow cars. Only 50kg less weight. Hybrid power not increased as much as possible. Aero rules still overbody biased etc.

You are forgetting completely free engine rules and the allowance of two hybrid systems, operating on both axles of the car

[joeb]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Without going through the torture of rereading this thread, I thought the engine used was a bespoke design by RML that sourced noyhing from Nissan ('sept money)?

I'm not sure on the details of the deal but I thought Nissan parts may have been used. There might be some more technical info on Highcrofts website or in the articles written by Gordon Kirby.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You are forgetting completely free engine rules and the allowance of two hybrid systems, operating on both axles of the car

No. I didnt forget that. Its great but with a fuel flow restriction we can already guess what the engines will be... small. Thats not a drastic change, bud. We all saw it coming.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Mike Fuller's suggesting a new engine is being developed for the DeltaWing.

All this DeltaWing stuff leads me to believe someone somewhere knows more about its future than I do. Maybe it's the top class for 2014.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by optica

The purpose of the DeltaWing was to achieve what it does using no more than 300bhp so I guess that sets the parameter for any other power unit that might be used, whatever its capacity. I hope that running the DW(s) in with P2 during 2013 will only be a stepping stone for a proper LMP Eco class with 500kg, 300bhp, 4 wheels & freedom for maximum innovation that might be in place for 2014. For those convinced that a full width fronted car can match the DW for performance will then have a chance to prove it.

Hear hear!

[deltawing]

Have been thinking these past few days about how would the DeltaWing work as a more simplified concept. How is a car with that precise layout, wheel position and weight distribution work if we were to remove the ground effect and any other down force generating features?....

For example, what if we make a tubular chassis that carries similar suspension geometry, similar tires size (let's pretend we can find tires similar to the sizes in use of the original DW car) and then let's say we put some batteries at the back where the internal combustion engine usually would be, we also use an electric motor and so we get an Electric DeltaWing "Barchetta", which could do with no problem some 30 - 50 seconds Autocross stints?

At that point the DeltaWing will become just DeltaCar as let's say we are not going to use any engineered-in ground effect. So, is this DeltaCar work in the above scenario better than similarly equipped, but more ordinarily sized car?

Or to ask the question in a different way: how much of the capabilities of the DeltaWing car (in cornering power/stability/handling balance) come from the ground effect it generates in its original design and how much could we expect from a DeltaCar with no ground effect? This always in comparison to a more conventional car with more even weight distribution and more equal track width.

Here some very quick shots to illustrate better what such DeltaCar Barchetta could look like - just conceptually, so please don't judge the lack of details or the incorrect positioning/execution of the parts, etc.....

This is what the tubular chassis could look like, it is made in a way that the car has the exact same wheel base/track width:



Here is a simple fiberglass body that will perhaps simply drop over the chassis, but for simplicity it could be completely separated from the rear fenders, so the car can just go as shown here:



Here is another shot from the rear, with the fenders on (let's call them fenders for now) and the main body removed. The rear "trunk" space is this large basket for the batteries, motor, etc. I am not sure how to size the batteries for such application, so this space could grow or get smaller. Either way there is plenty space in the rear is long range is not needed:




Here is a little gallery in full screen in some vibrant colors and with all the fiberglass on (give it some time to load as the images are quite large):

http://www.aliasguy.com/DW-Barchetta/index.html

There are certain angles from which this thing looks quite interesting with just the roll cage sticking out, little bit wider central section of the rear and all the rest above the shoulders being gone...

So, what do you gentlemen think? Could this work better than a conventional (wide front track) built and be a kicker as an Autocrosser on relatively slow and tight courses?

Cheers.

.