IMSA DPi Discussion

[carbsmith]

It's illegal because of the manufacturer bodywork and electronics. That could have been smoothed over by special agreement maybe. Otherwise same tire size, same bodywork dimensions. I think P2 has more restrictions on front end aerodynamic elements but it's still a subset of P1.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by mariantic

Just posted on LM24 Forum - thought it may get some response here...



OK Christmas Quiz...

On what grounds would it not be eligible if it applied in LMP1 Privateer?

Mariantic

I'm gonna pass this on to someone I know who's been in the rules meetings. I'll provide the answer when I get it. (could be a while - she's visiting family for the holidays right now and will be a bit busy when she gets back to work)

In the real world, we can be fairly sure GM would kill the idea, so I'll be inquiring purely from a regulatory standpoint.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I'm gonna pass this on to someone I know who's been in the rules meetings. I'll provide the answer when I get it. (could be a while - she's visiting family for the holidays right now and will be a bit busy when she gets back to work)

In the real world, we can be fairly sure GM would kill the idea, so I'll be inquiring purely from a regulatory standpoint.

It's not that much TBH. P1 and P2 cars from 2017 onward are nearly identical in shape/size considerations. There is a 100kg difference in weight and the remainder comes down to minor changes in specific bodywork dimensions and locations of specific radii that could easily be overcome.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

It's not that much TBH. P1 and P2 cars from 2017 onward are nearly identical in shape/size considerations. There is a 100kg difference in weight and the remainder comes down to minor changes in specific bodywork dimensions and locations of specific radii that could easily be overcome.

Yeah, spec-wise there's no discernible issue. But rules-wise there might be something buried in there that'd bring a roadblock to it.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Yeah, spec-wise there's no discernible issue. But rules-wise there might be something buried in there that'd bring a roadblock to it.

There isn't. Bring a DPi to the homologation committee with the requisite changes and matching the technical documentation, there is no good reason to think that it would be turned away as a defacto P1P.

The biggest roadblocks would be..

1. How much factory involvement exists in the program applying.
2. Full season WEC entry, no single entry to LM would ever be accepted.
3. Adequate seperation from DPi branding to P1P standalone car. e.g. take the stickers off and it shouldn't be discernible to the casual fan.

Meet all of those, and you'd likely be able to take up a privateer P1 entry.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

There isn't. Bring a DPi to the homologation committee with the requisite changes and matching the technical documentation, there is no good reason to think that it would be turned away as a defacto P1P.

The biggest roadblocks would be..

1. How much factory involvement exists in the program applying.
2. Full season WEC entry, no single entry to LM would ever be accepted.
3. Adequate seperation from DPi branding to P1P standalone car. e.g. take the stickers off and it shouldn't be discernible to the casual fan.

Meet all of those, and you'd likely be able to take up a privateer P1 entry.

Problem: Unless you've been in most or all of the new rules meetings, you can't possibly know that there isn't anything else to worry about right now. There've been a lot of new rules discussed which we don't know about, and some of them are already set to be implemented - they just haven't yet been seen in a published rulebook. LMP1 is changing, and has been since before Audi's withdrawal caused some panic meetings. Those changes COULD throw up some other roadblocks that can't be overcome.

There's a reason I've shot this question off to someone who's been in the rules meetings. We don't know what's changing yet that could interfere with the idea of entering a Caddy DPi in LMP1, but the people who've been to the meetings do.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Problem: Unless you've been in most or all of the new rules meetings, you can't possibly know that there isn't anything else to worry about right now. There've been a lot of new rules discussed which we don't know about, and some of them are already set to be implemented - they just haven't yet been seen in a published rulebook. LMP1 is changing, and has been since before Audi's withdrawal caused some panic meetings. Those changes COULD throw up some other roadblocks that can't be overcome.

There's a reason I've shot this question off to someone who's been in the rules meetings. We don't know what's changing yet that could interfere with the idea of entering a Caddy DPi in LMP1, but the people who've been to the meetings do.

The 2017 technical rules have been finalized.

[FormulaFox]

To my surprise I have already gotten a reply to my inquiry.

Short answer: No, there are no rules coming that would preclude a privateer DPi effort, nor is there any rule that would preclude anybody from building any privateer LMP1 effort off of an LMP2 tub that met the safety requirements.

Long answer: It did come close to being made impossible. Prior to Audi's withdrawal changing how many looked at the LMP1 situation, a rule requiring a tub to be unique to a car was being seriously considered. It would have basically allowed any LMP2 constructor to make an LMP1 based on the P2 tub, but not for a third party to enter a car built off the tub. This would have precluded any DPi from being entered in LMP1 without a waiver, which would only be considered if a factory-backed entry was desired - the proposed rule was meant to prevent half-hearted P2 upgrades from becoming privateer standard in LMP1, not to stop DPis from entering if the factory wanted to.

My source believes that despite how seriously it was considered, the rule proposal would have died out even if Audi hadn't withdrawn as it is highly unlikely that half-hearted P2 upgrades would become a major issue regardless.

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The 2017 technical rules have been finalized.

Which meant NOTHING because....

1: We still haven't seen them in detail, and wouldn't know about any changes without clarification from the inside.

2: The 2018 regulations have NOT been finalized, and 2018 when any efforts such as adapting a DPi are going to be seen. WE already know what's coming for 2017 no matter what the rules said. (case in point: The aforementioned discussed rule was to be implemented for 2018 because the ACO knew no new entries were being planned for 2017 - it would have been completely irrelevant)

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

1: We still haven't seen them in detail, and wouldn't know about any changes without clarification from the inside.

They are posted in PDF form on the ACO's website.

[chernaudi]

Read what I posted about the ACO in another thread. Whether or not they'd allow a DPI into LMP1 privateer will hinge on how stupid or desperate the ACO are, and whether or not the manufacturer involved wants the publicity or not.

[joeb]

MP has a great article looking at some of the differences under the hood ( so to speak) between the Mazda and Cadillac.

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13738...lac-mazda-dpis

I think a lot of what is highlighted is really just differences between chassis manufacturers but interesting none the less.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

They are posted in PDF form on the ACO's website.

I always find it suspicious when someone is unwilling to actually link the thing they refer to in these matters - Particularly when dealing with a site that's as big a pain to find such things as the ACO's.

That said, I already had the page bookmarked so it doesn't really matter here. I was not aware that an updated copy had been issued - The last one I'd been aware of was a copy of the provisional(IE, not finalized) rules issued back in October(IIRC). I did not think to look because the ACO does not usually publicly publish the finalized rules until January.

That said, the 2017 rules are still not the relevant issue since anyone who's been paying attention knows there would be movement on anything for 2017 - it'd be 2018. But at this time there is no indication the 2018 rules will be closing anything in that regard - my inquiry to my source was specifically about 2018.

[AoB Special Stage]

happy now?

[S griffin]

Hopefully there'll be plenty of variety in the American series for a while, with privateers in the mix too

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

happy now?

I already retrieved the needed information. Had I not, though, your information would not have helped - you attached the wrong information. The issue at hand was DPi in LMP1, not LMP2. We all know DPi isn't going to be in LMP2 in the forseeable future.

[Akrapovic]

Let's take a break from the final episode of The Most Inside Insider 2016 and go back to the original question:

Would a DPi be eligible at Le Mans? As Horndawg posted, the engines are legal. They probably meet the dimension and aero regulations too. I think it's relatively safe to say that the car meets the technical regulations. The problem comes with manufacturer involvement. It is LMP1 Privateer - the cars can't be built by manufacturers. That should immediately rule out Caddy and Mazda, as they've had heavy involement with their cars. You could argue Dallara built the bodywork for the Caddy, but Caddy are sitting with design sketches, so you can't argue they weren't involved. But it does leave a question mark over the Nissan, as it appears as though Nissan have had very little to do with the car, and it's all ESM/Onroak. I'd say it's safe to say that of the current cars, the Nissan is the only one that'd meet the sporting regulations regarding manufacturer involvement.

So if someone decided to enter a Nissan, what would happen? I imagine it'd get rejected. They'd have a better chance of getting a full season WEC entry than a single race in the class I think. But the ACO haven't been very supportive of the long term small teams supporting them, and they've admitted that now. (JMW losing out to the 4 Fords, LMP1-P abandoned for too long). So how likely are the ACO to accept a DPi entry when they currently have an over subscribed grid of cars from just ACO run series? You could argue it'd be wrong to drop JMW or Proton or Krohn from Le Mans to accept a DPi entry. If IMSA starting cutting out GTD cars to allow Rebellion to get a Daytona run, there would rightly be an uproar.

It'd also risk destroying the LMP1-P class completely. ACO Are trying to rebuild it and get Strakka and Ginetta and others involved. It'd be pretty insulting to get these small teams to put in all that effort, and then bring in a works backed team from the outside. This might be something IMSA will find out with GTD allowing works entries this years - gotta think about the little guys too.

I think the best way to get DPi at Le Mans is a DPi class. The ACO are extending the grid every so often, so I'd like to think that the idea of an invitational DPi class is being thrown about. Where the American teams can come over and fight it out with the Euros, at the big event, without a conflict of interest. That'd be absolutely awesome. But I'm still of the opinion that the DPi should be called Prototype America, and somehow get the stars and stripes on the number panels for Le Mans.

[NaBUru38]

I'll rephrase the question.

o- Does any manufacturer enter a DPi at Le Mans in the LMP1 class?
o- Is the ACO interested in that?

All else follows the answer to those questions.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

I'll rephrase the question.

o- Does any manufacturer enter a DPi at Le Mans in the LMP1 class?
o- Is the ACO interested in that?

All else follows the answer to those questions.

1 - No a manufacturer may not enter a DPi at Le Mans in the LMP1 class. There are no hybrids, so it cannot enter LMP1-H. There is manufacturer involvement, so it cannot enter LMP1-P. The only current possible exception is the Nissan because it uniquely did not have manufacturer involvement during the design and is a completely private design and manufacturer. This is why some teams have chosen to go with standard LMP2s, so they can get a Le Mans entry.

2 - They have not shown interest in it currently, but we don't know what is happening behind closed doors.

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

1 - No a manufacturer may not enter a DPi at Le Mans in the LMP1 class. There are no hybrids, so it cannot enter LMP1-H. There is manufacturer involvement, so it cannot enter LMP1-P. The only current possible exception is the Nissan because it uniquely did not have manufacturer involvement during the design and is a completely private design and manufacturer. This is why some teams have chosen to go with standard LMP2s, so they can get a Le Mans entry.

2 - They have not shown interest in it currently, but we don't know what is happening behind closed doors.

I guess they could stuff a hybrid system in it, but they would get mauled by the proper P1-H teams, assuming I haven't missed any glaring regulation differences for '17.

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

L...If IMSA starting cutting out GTD cars to allow Rebellion to get a Daytona run, there would rightly be an uproar.
...

Uproar before the 24!!!

I'd be down

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

1 - No a manufacturer may not enter a DPi at Le Mans in the LMP1 class. There are no hybrids, so it cannot enter LMP1-H. There is manufacturer involvement, so it cannot enter LMP1-P. The only current possible exception is the Nissan because it uniquely did not have manufacturer involvement during the design and is a completely private design and manufacturer. This is why some teams have chosen to go with standard LMP2s, so they can get a Le Mans entry.

2 - They have not shown interest in it currently, but we don't know what is happening behind closed doors.

Doubtful, NONE of them would take their car over. Flis has been talked with Keating in a combined effort to run his Riley at LM, NOT their IMSA entered P2. Especially as the P2s will now likely be modded in IMSA to run with the DPis.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Doubtful, NONE of them would take their car over. Flis has been talked with Keating in a combined effort to run his Riley at LM, NOT their IMSA entered P2. Especially as the P2s will now likely be modded in IMSA to run with the DPis.

I never said they'd ship a car over. I said they're running a P2 to have a better chance of entry. Not only does it look good to the ACO (unfortunately politics is important), but if you're running a Caddy with all the IMSA specific hardware (including a full engine and gearbox), how do you think the crew would do if you sent them to Europe to run a 24 hour race with a car they've never worked on with an engine they've never see before? Setting IMSA teams up to fail isn't a good idea.

Running a P2 in IMSA increases the chances of the ACO inviting, and gives the team a more realistic learning curve.

[carbsmith]

I don't think the ACO would be likely to reject any P1 cars, but I also don't see why you would bring that Ligier over in DPi configuration anyways. For a full season IMSA entrant with Ligiers it doesn't make any sense logistically to transport a chassis instead of renting one and you would be at a straight disadvantage using that bodywork when the LMP2 cars have an LM kit.

[TF110]

There's no rule that says dpi body kits can't be used at LM in privateer lmp1, but I don't think the ACO would be accepting if it was branded as designed or ran as or by the factory/manufacturer. If there was a 'powered by' sticker with Mazda or Cadillac I bet they could get away with it.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by TF110

There's no rule that says dpi body kits can't be used at LM in privateer lmp1, but I don't think the ACO would be accepting if it was branded as designed or ran as or by the factory/manufacturer. If there was a 'powered by' sticker with Mazda or Cadillac I bet they could get away with it.

Sounds reasonable.