Is Formula 1 broken?

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He never has revealed all, always keeping something back.

And I hope he continues too.
I'd loathe seeing the old coot exposed.
Glad he doesn't appear on any TV screen close to me.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Todt seems to have finally weighed in, saying he believes the FIA "should have complete control" of Formula 1.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123620

[Akrapovic]

So what's this nonsense about using aggregate times? So you'd have to do 2+ laps in order to get an average?

WEC tried this. It was awful, especially trackside. Nobody knew what was going on and everybody disliked it. It removed the fun from qualifying.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Todt seems to have finally weighed in, saying he believes the FIA "should have complete control" of Formula 1.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123620

He can say what he likes but it isn't going to change anything and no promises he would do any better.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Todt seems to have finally weighed in, saying he believes the FIA "should have complete control" of Formula 1.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/123620

He spoke a lot, but, in reality, he said absolutely nothing. Just a lot of hand-wringing, and not even true. He didn't inherit this mess; when Mosley and BCE controlled F1, they didn't allow this type of nonsense. Whatever they wanted, they got by hook or by crook.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

He spoke a lot, but, in reality, he said absolutely nothing. Just a lot of hand-wringing, and not even true. He didn't inherit this mess; when Mosley and BCE controlled F1, they didn't allow this type of nonsense. Whatever they wanted, they got by hook or by crook.

Personally I don't understand why Todt became head of the FIA. He had a load of praise heaped on him initially, when the AOC and the FIA buried the hatchet and setup the WEC but that was always on the cards. Endurance racing couldn't continue as it was. Since then what has he done, apart from being conspicuous by his absence?

[sparkione]

Originally Posted by Casper

There is no reason that F1 has to be road relevant, it never was and never will be.

The only way F1 will attract the big manufacturers is if the regulations and technology allow them to view it as a huge R&D exercise, with a direct beneficial impact on their road cars sufficient to justify the expense. So that means the whole eco-hybrid paraphernalia, which in turn puts the whole thing way beyond the financial means of ordinary, humble racing teams.

We all know that the racing would be at least as good, and almost certainly immeasurably better, if we scrapped all that, went back to naturally-aspirated 3.0-litre V8s, big slicks, big wings and less reliance on aero downforce. We could manage without Merc, Renault, Honda, etc. But we might also lose Ferrari...

Anyway, with PC eco warriors like Todt running the FIA and CVC – who don't give a toss about racing or the fans – calling the commercial shots, pigs will be flying before that happens.

It's a sad, sorry, sickening mess. I never thought I'd miss Max Mosley...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by sparkione

The only way F1 will attract the big manufacturers is if the regulations and technology allow them to view it as a huge R&D exercise, with a direct beneficial impact on their road cars sufficient to justify the expense. So that means the whole eco-hybrid paraphernalia, which in turn puts the whole thing way beyond the financial means of ordinary, humble racing teams.

We all know that the racing would be at least as good, and almost certainly immeasurably better, if we scrapped all that, went back to naturally-aspirated 3.0-litre V8s, big slicks, big wings and less reliance on aero downforce. We could manage without Merc, Renault, Honda, etc. But we might also lose Ferrari...

Anyway, with PC eco warriors like Todt running the FIA and CVC – who don't give a toss about racing or the fans – calling the commercial shots, pigs will be flying before that happens.

It's a sad, sorry, sickening mess. I never thought I'd miss Max Mosley...

It was never road relevant before and was a marketing exercise. Why is it not ok to just be about marketing now?

Is it because of the dropping viewing figures? Because maybe they should be addressing the core issue, rather than attempting work arounds to problems.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by sparkione

... big wings and less reliance on aero downforce.

Seems to be a bit of a contraction there.

Personally I think downforce in all it's forms is the worst thing that ever happened to motor racing. Un fortunately it would be hugely difficult to get rid of now because it has percolated all the way down to nearly every class of racing. If you banned it from F1, there would be numerous lesser classes that would have much faster lap times. So you would need to ban it across the board, all in one fell swoop. Tricky!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It was never road relevant before and was a marketing exercise. Why is it not ok to just be about marketing now?

Is it because of the dropping viewing figures? Because maybe they should be addressing the core issue, rather than attempting work arounds to problems.

Largely because the public allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by the PR and marketing types in the past, but that is mostly frowned upon nowadays as the public have, in general, become far more aware when people are peeing on their legs and being told that it's raining. At the same time, shareholders and/or boardroom members demand that their is some direct correlation between what happens on the track and their road going vehicles. This is why, for example, Daimler Benz were considering pulling the plug, but Mercedes were allowed to continue because they were able to demonstrate that the technology was or would be relevant to the road vehicles and that they were managing to produce virtually the same power output as a normally aspirated PU, but only using 60-65% of the fuel.

That is more important to boardrooms than a lot of the guff that the marketing types put out; it will sell trucks and cars, much in the same way that the more economical engines being produced by the likes of Rolls Royce and GE help sell more new aircraft. For example, Airbus originally planned to only build around 600 A320s and it's derivatives, but has now delivered over 6000 of the family with firm orders for a further 5000. All because it is more economical for the airlines to upgrade their fleet with fuel-saving engines rather than soldier on with older airframes.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Largely because the public allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by the PR and marketing types in the past, but that is mostly frowned upon nowadays as the public have, in general, become far more aware when people are peeing on their legs and being told that it's raining. At the same time, shareholders and/or boardroom members demand that their is some direct correlation between what happens on the track and their road going vehicles. This is why, for example, Daimler Benz were considering pulling the plug, but Mercedes were allowed to continue because they were able to demonstrate that the technology was or would be relevant to the road vehicles and that they were managing to produce virtually the same power output as a normally aspirated PU, but only using 60-65% of the fuel.

That is more important to boardrooms than a lot of the guff that the marketing types put out; it will sell trucks and cars, much in the same way that the more economical engines being produced by the likes of Rolls Royce and GE help sell more new aircraft. For example, Airbus originally planned to only build around 600 A320s and it's derivatives, but has now delivered over 6000 of the family with firm orders for a further 5000. All because it is more economical for the airlines to upgrade their fleet with fuel-saving engines rather than soldier on with older airframes.

All very true, but unfortunately, what we have now is essentially, 180 mile endurance/sports-car racing with cars that look like F1 cars.

[Mike Harte]

The latest projected payments for the teams for 2015 are in the media:



The full story can be found here: http://www.racer.com/f1/item/127980-...-2016-revealed

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The latest projected payments for the teams for 2015 are in the media:



The full story can be found here: http://www.racer.com/f1/item/127980-...-2016-revealed

I read the same article in Autosport. It truly beggars belief. Why do the teams put up with this?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I read the same article in Autosport. It truly beggars belief. Why do the teams put up with this?

Because they have to if they want to play in Bernie's playpen. This is a very good reason why FOM should have never been granted the licence to run the commercial side of F1 for over 100 years, with a contract that is believed to be unbreakable. BCE is able to negotiate individually with each team, and they have no strength to resist him.

The only team that he and the FIA need or want in F1 is Ferrari, because they are the only team that have remained loyal to the championship, apart from a couple of minor blips which hardly anyone will remember now. Red Bull gets a decent whack because BCE believes that they have good pulling power, whilst Mercedes get treated well because both the FIA and FOM need them to supply PUs to teams that cannot produce them themselves.

I really hope that the EU commission does accept the complaints, and does a proper job on F1. That they break the contract that FOM has because it doesn't allow proper competition, or any other reason really, and that F1 returns to planet Earth, and we have a situation where traditional circuits can actually afford to put on races - I mean, why does Silverstone have to pay an annual fee of around £18 million when Monaco, which has untold wealth, pays absolutely nothing - and other races are put on where nobody wants to go and watch.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Because they have to if they want to play in Bernie's playpen. This is a very good reason why FOM should have never been granted the licence to run the commercial side of F1 for over 100 years, with a contract that is believed to be unbreakable. BCE is able to negotiate individually with each team, and they have no strength to resist him.

The only team that he and the FIA need or want in F1 is Ferrari, because they are the only team that have remained loyal to the championship, apart from a couple of minor blips which hardly anyone will remember now. Red Bull gets a decent whack because BCE believes that they have good pulling power, whilst Mercedes get treated well because both the FIA and FOM need them to supply PUs to teams that cannot produce them themselves.

I really hope that the EU commission does accept the complaints, and does a proper job on F1. That they break the contract that FOM has because it doesn't allow proper competition, or any other reason really, and that F1 returns to planet Earth, and we have a situation where traditional circuits can actually afford to put on races - I mean, why does Silverstone have to pay an annual fee of around £18 million when Monaco, which has untold wealth, pays absolutely nothing - and other races are put on where nobody wants to go and watch.

What's to stop a number of the teams going on strike?

[Armco Bender]

What's to stop a number of the teams going on strike?

Because the hand that feeds them will bite them.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Because the hand that feeds them will bite them.

If they are already on strike, how's is it going to do that, threaten to withhold payments? Chuck them out of the series?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What's to stop a number of the teams going on strike?

Simply because they will have broken their contract with FOM, which mandates them to race at all rounds of the championship. There is the force majeure clause, which Manor took advantage of, but withdrawing their "labour" doesn't fall into that category. I think, but am not 100% certain, that they would certainly forfeit the $33.5 million from column 1 in the chart.

I don't think that any team, except possibly Ferrari, would risk that, and then again, I think that Ferrari would be the last team to object to the payment structure. However, having said that, they might well get mightily exercised over some of the rule shenanigans.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If they are already on strike, how's is it going to do that, threaten to withhold payments? Chuck them out of the series?

Both of the above; payments and being allowed to compete in the championship is dependant on teams actually arriving at every race, and actively participating.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by MarkG

All very true, but unfortunately, what we have now is essentially, 180 mile endurance/sports-car racing with cars that look like F1 cars.

Agreed, good summary, I have a big problem with droning around to a delta 5 or 6 seconds off a cars ultimate pace being called racing though!

Very little precision is required and the result is just boring!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If they are already on strike, how's is it going to do that, threaten to withhold payments? Chuck them out of the series?

Additional to what Mike said, it's because the teams won't trust one another to do it. They have to turn up to all the races, but if half the teams agreed to park on strike then others would take advantage of it. Look at how Stoddart reacted during the US GP fiasco, saying he'd park his cars. He didn't and then called the whole thing a disgrace...as he took part in it.

Morals go out the window pretty quickly with the teams.

[chillibowl]

From Nico's twitter page.

https://twitter.com/nico_rosberg/sta...81907252609025

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

From Nico's twitter page.

That's a good one. How about a then and now for pre season fitness... Disco in one and standing on a scale and vomiting into a toilet in the other!

Richard

[Mekola]

I read on Brazilian media, that good ol' Emmo seems to be broken...
...but F1 still not. Still not?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That's a good one. How about a then and now for pre season fitness... Disco in one and standing on a scale and vomiting into a toilet in the other!

Richard

Very good Richard!