How Do We Judge a Marshal's Abilities?

[juliet]

Originally Posted by Les Green

Should we ask the question, why do people want to upgrade,esp. from trainee as quickly as possible? Is there a certain stigma attached to holding the trainee grade?

I am a trainee and I dont have any particular desire to do the BGP (prob will do it at somepoint just so i can say i have done it but am certainly not racing towards it) but i find myself looking forward to moving up a grade.

I am not going to rush it because i dont want to be put in a position where i could put any of my collegues in danger from rushing through on my limited experience.

But i do think there is a certain stigma, i have worked with a few IOs at a couple of circuits who wont let trainees take part in anything other than holding the SC board or sweeping the track between sessions, this is even if the trainee has had 5 years experience!

I love the fact at the moment being a trainee means the guys on post are covering my back that little bit more, but I can see why some people rush to upgrade. I think some people in the banter thrown around can give trainees the impression that they are not proper marshals until they upgrade. I dont think any of these people believe that to be true but i know a couple of trainees that count down the sigs until they can be a "proper" marshal

[Slipstick]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Can't do the GP as a trainee. Simple as that.

I'm not sure it's purely that. I have no desire ever to do the GP but I'd still like to get rid of that downcast "Oh another white badge" comment as soon as I can .

When I first did a stint marshalling, in the last century, the grading scheme belonged only to BMMC and those of us who just marshalled with the same clubs we'd raced with often didn't get involved. To be fair things were perhaps a bit too casual then....by my third meeting I was running a flag post on my own with just a whistle (and a yellow of course) to let the lads up the road know if there was an incident they hadn't spotted.

But this time round when I saw it was going to take me at least three or four years, perhaps more now, before I could aspire to being a flag marshal I nearly lost interest. I've now discovered that if you enjoy waving the flags someone will arrange it for you whatever your grade....but that wasn't clear initially. And I do know several people who have looked at marshalling and walked away because "It's too much like going to work with all that bureaucracy".

As Chris says it's a difficult tightrope between maintaining a good reserve of fully competent marshals and losing volunteers because it's just too difficult to get anywhere. The emphasis of the latest changes seems to be on making sure that it takes longer to progress through the grades without much regard for competence, which it's true is a lot trickier to assess than attendances. But perhaps I'm not understanding the changes correctly, I am pretty new to the scheme (in fact so new I probably should have kept my mouth shut...but I'm too old to learn that new trick, sorry).

Steve

[Bakersboy]

I've now nearly completed my second year as trainee and I can't for the life of me understand the rush for grade chasing. I perhaps do not attend as many events as others (my wife doesn't enjoy the best of health) but I like to think that my competence is as good as anybody else. I just don't feel the need to upgrade. There are times that I have been appalled by the standards shown by "experienced" marshals and their lack of awareness trackside and yet I can feel more confident for my own safety with keen less experienced trainees. Perhaps some sort of complacency sets in?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I'm not sure it's purely that. I have no desire ever to do the GP but I'd still like to get rid of that downcast "Oh another white badge" comment as soon as I can .

Okay, you're right, the second sentence was a lie. But there are some restrictions placed on trainees which provide motivation for upgrading. For example, I recall being told that my services weren't required while volunteering for a couple of bumper car meetings because they already had as many trainees as they were prepared to handle. I imagine that there are some stigma issues too.

I have to say that that I don't remember any "oh another white badge" comments myself. In fact, IME the opposite was the case. I remember telling one silverstone IO that I was a trainee, when I went to flag on his post. He asked and I told him I'd done about 10 days (or similar) and his response was something along the lines of "oh fine, you're practically an expert." As I recall, I received a couple of similar comments elsewhere too.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by juliet

i have worked with a few IOs at a couple of circuits who wont let trainees take part in anything other than holding the SC board or sweeping the track between sessions, this is even if the trainee has had 5 years experience!

Well that's not unreasonable. At the end of the day, IOs and PCs have a certain level of responsibility and accountability for the safety of the marshals in their charge. If somebody is a trainee then it's perfectly acceptable to limit their exposure until they have demonstrated competence and an awareness of how to be safe. What you have to remember is that if something does go wrong, the judge will ask "why did you let someone you knew to be a trainee do this and that?"

If, in fact, they do have more experience, and want to get more involved, then the onus is on them to demonstrate it by passing an upgrade assessment.

I realise that you have to actually get the experience, but that needs to be done in the close company of an experienced marshal who can look out for their safety, and sometimes that's just not possible due to the manning situation. If you already know how to do it without such close supervision, upgrade!

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by juliet

... i have worked with a few IOs at a couple of circuits who wont let trainees take part in anything other than holding the SC board or sweeping the track between sessions, this is even if the trainee has had 5 years experience!

Can't/won't comment on the last bit because I need more detail. The way it reads at the moment doesn't make sense.

The procedure that seems to be used most often (as a rule of thumb) at Oulton Park is for a "first-day" trainee to stay off the track while it is live and only go on when the racing has stopped, for cleanup or recovery operations. In the meantime he/she will spend some time with me in the box where I ramble on about what's going on, who does what, safety, etc. Then they are placed with a group and circulate as normal, but still not on a live track.

On day two, after an extended briefing/learning session with me in the box, they will be teamed up with the most experienced marshal I have on post. The general plan will be to allow the trainee on a live track provided the track conditions are reasonable. The experienced marshal will be asked to use their judgement as to what is reasonable and/or look at me for a yes/no decision at the time. Call it "Quantitative Easing."

The upgrade process can be assisted by placing Universal Gift Vouchers in the applicant's PRC and using the correct spelling of 'Sir' ...

[juliet]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702;2970994If you [I

already[/I] know how to do it without such close supervision, upgrade!

And how are you supposed to get the experience to know if you can work with out supervision if you arnt allowed to get your hands dirty?

I am guessing the attitude is probably different a different tracks around the country and i am looking forward next season to being able to travel around and experience different people in different places.

I am not happy that i am quite ready to upgrade, i have done about 15 days over 2 seasons and i dont feel that that is enough, but I do feel that i am caperble of assisting in an incident even if it is just to grab the driver and keep him safe.

it is exactly that attitiude of "you are just a trainee stay here and watch" that makes me want to upgrade here and now, I marshal because i want to help, dont get me wrong i enjoy sweeping the track between races, catting to people on other posts and i like chatting to the flaggie during the safety car periods and hearing some of his knowledge. But I also want to get involved so i can learn what i am doing right and what i am doing wrong.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by juliet

And how are you supposed to get the experience to know if you can work with out supervision if you arnt allowed to get your hands dirty?

Well, as I thought I made clear, you get your hands dirty *with* supervision (when available). If your chaperone/IO/PC says "good job, well done," you know

[nate93]

Originally Posted by Slipstick

I have no desire ever to do the GP but I'd still like to get rid of that downcast "Oh another white badge" comment as soon as I can .

I'm in the same boat on this one, however I've never come across a bad attitude to me as a trainee, in fact quite the opposite, comments often being along the lines of "its nice to see younger blood coming into the sport"

Whilst I don't understand why anyone would want to chase badges or upgrade sooner than they are ready, I feel that it also needs to be accepted that different people are going to need a different number of days to be ready to upgrade - this is mainly talking about trainee > track.

I guess it could be said I was thrown in at the deep end in the fact that my first day there was only two of us on post and it was a fairly busy day so I had to flag (having done some previously before I "properly" started out) and on the second day of the same event it was the same situation. Whilst this probably isn't the norm, I was comfortable with it, as was the person I was on post with.

I can say I've received nothing but good advice and help from fellow marshals at whatever circuit I've been at and have been allowed to do things, gradually building up what I've done and I now feel fairly competent (although not ready to upgrade) purely down to the good advice from more experienced people and being trusted to do things safely and learn while I was doing them.

Having now done 21 days (although only 13 signatures) I feel comfortable/fairly competent and my aim would be to upgrade sometime next year, with my goal being before I go off to uni, however, if i'm not ready, I wont do it.

I'll stop rambling now

[Chris Hobson]

Some sensible comments. The PRC is designed to help PCs understand just how much experience a marshal has (henmce the coments areas) - so if the marshal holds a trainee grade and has just a couple of sigs they can ensure they are supervised and mentored quite closely and perhaps restricted in the duties they perform. If there are already ten signatures on the PRC then they can be treated much like a graded track marshal. Of course all of this could easily be done without the PRC if the PC or I/O talks to all of his/her team at the start of the day!

I am glad many of you are not 'badge chasers'.

As for the GP.......................................
The rules I am supposed to play by are that I cannot put forward any 'Trainee' grade marshals for selection - strictly you should have upgraded to 'track' before I submit your application. However, if all you need is a training day signature and an upgrade sig then sometimes you might just slip through. (Please note I would denyever making this last statement if ever questioned by the powers that be and oput it down to my old age and infirmity)

[warweezil]

I certainly never met any "acceptance" issues as a trainee, even from my first day on the bank where my first task was "go make sure that driver comes up on the bank away from the car" when someone parked up a dud car. I soon found myself paired with an experienced guy to "lead" me and discuss aspects of the task afterwards and this progressed to working more and more independently, I guess coming from a rail and heavy construction background I have a healthy respect for the dangers that exist. I took 2 seasons before I upgraded, mainly because the Black X I was working with one weekend told me I was more than ready. Maybe next year.. after 2 years as "track".. I may look to "experienced", but the way the goalposts keep moving.. I may not bother - each time I think about a grade move.. they change things. OTOH, the Bike guys I turn out for a few times a year dont seem to have any issues about grading, for them actions seem to speak louder.

Even when I took an under 18 along with me, I found it easy to "involve" him by taking him to the closest spot possible (while still being on the bank) and making him "Driver Chaperone" and asking him to "watch my back" when I was trackside, and getting him down to inspect the track.. help push cars collect debris etc. He understood that he couldnt go trackside while it was live at his age and accepted that

Shame he moved away... he had good observation skills... I think he lives too far from a circuit now.

[SuperDuff]

I think that the proposed system makes sense, and while I think it won't bother the non-badge chasing amongst us, I do agree that the line is a hard one to walk between convoluted and comprehensive.

As a trainee, I have been nothing but welcomed to a team, and have always been allowed to go out with the team. I don't feel massively confident (I haven't had much to deal with this year really) and I am glad of my trainee status, as like juliet says, it helps to know your back is covered perhaps a little more because you're the 'baby' of the bunch.

My only thing is that I seem to be the only person making comments in the PRC, which is usually where I have been on post and if anything happened ("Vale - big car fire" is about as extensive as they have got!).

Also, just as a side note, the BGP is not really an incentive for me to upgrade - I'll get there when I get there. In all honesty, I'd rather go abroad and do other stuff. The incentive for me is to be more 'useful' than an additional pair of hands.

[The Fat Clerk]

At Mallory we judge a Marshal on their ability to visit and hold their own in the Clubhouse afterwards. I try and buy a new face a beer although usually being in Race Control someone else beats me to it

[Alchamist]

Must make a note to try and get to Mallory next year ....

[pauln]

Do. It's a lovely track and a very friendly welcome. I always enjoy my visits there.

[Chris Hobson]

Dave,

Mine's a pint.................................................. of single malt (Speyside!)

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

At Mallory we judge a Marshal on their ability to visit and hold their own in the Clubhouse afterwards. I try and buy a new face a beer although usually being in Race Control someone else beats me to it

Oh dear. Back to trainee for me then I'm always driving, though.

[Oscar114]

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

OSCAR144 Common sense will prevail - the exact words to be used are still in my brain but we will not be that pedantic.

That's good that there will be some pragmatism used.
Thanks for the reply

[lucky scarf]

As someone approaching the end of their third year in orange I'm not sure whether this badge chasing issue is the most relevant issue to be addressed. Since turning green last year after a healthy 24 days as trainee and being told I was ready for an assessment, a lot of days since have involved myself working with trainees with varying levels of experience. Quite often depending on their knowledge i try to explain the overall grading process and always refer to the minimum and then what most people reckon to be a more realistic level with the provisio you'll probably know when your ready. I really can't recall a time when people have been in a hurry to upgrade and most I've seen have had a sensible range of experience. Is it more of an issue of how to retain new green marshals and help them develop towards experienced. This year there seems to be a lower level of experienced marshals which may have more of an impact on the overall marshalling standard.

Going back to what was the old system of only giving signatures for incidents may also be seen as a disincentive to us "youngsters" whereby attending events may not always be recognised. Going three of four meetings with nothing to do and by its nature no recognition for your "work" over these days may have a negative impact for some possibly?

In addition what would happen for flagging signatures, presumably by the nature of the role you always get a signature so would it be a two tier system whereby signatures were obtained quicker in one category over the other?

[warweezil]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

At Mallory we judge a Marshal on their ability to visit and hold their own in the Clubhouse afterwards. I try and buy a new face a beer although usually being in Race Control someone else beats me to it

Well if I ever make it to Mallory... I'd be a cheap round... I dont drink

[Les Green]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Continous Assessment, Performance Reports - how long before someone suggests Payment By Results.

Can't help thinking it's becoming too much like work.

From past experience, a good percentage of the 'grade chasers' will probably disappear from the schene after a couple of years.

[Steve Milward]

Chris,

Under the revised upgrade scheme will there still be a requirement to have a mixture of incident and flag days plus an assessment on both to upgrade.

[Chris Hobson]

Steve,

Yes

[RichardW]

I must be more ill than I thought! I find a lot of common ground with Alisdair and Chris Hobson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The improvements which some of us have badgered for in another place will help. Maybe even a lot! There are badge chasers and these plans will slow them down.
In my view 2 important issues remain unaddressed.
1. Attendance signatures alone will not do the trick. If we've now finally accepted that watching cars go around in circles for 10 days doesn't qualify anyone for an upgrade, why will 20 days do it? What's needed and almost everyone seems to know it, is that you need so many signatures for days when you've DONE something. If it offends one individual to call them upgrade signatures, then call them something else - just do it. The old objection was that only XPCs could give upgrade sigs. That problem was addressed the wrong way. Instead of banning upgrade sigs, we should have kept them but allowed them to be given by whoever was PC on the day if the marshal did something rather than just watched. It will be argued that the XPC assessment has made upgrade sigs unnecessary - - am I alone in seeing XPCs nod through upgrades?? Or not even knowing what the MSA assessment guidelines are?
2. And linked with 1 above. If any XPC was upgraded 30 years ago, how do we know he/she still posseses the skills needed today? No-one checks. And even those recently upgraded may not be doing things as MSA wish. We need a system of continuous assessment - for all grades starting at the top. If I'm not doing my job right, I should retrained, mentored, but finally removed - motorsport is dangerous, they say. If we can be sure that all XPCs and PCs are on-message, that can spread down - PCs etc can assesss IOs and others. But we need to start at the top. How about it MWG - why not build on the start you've made and REALLY get it right?

[Nighthawk]

I have to agree with you on this one Richard....