ALMS/Grand Am Fusion 2014

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

People liking Grand Am calling ALMS cars chicanes.

Thats a good one.

Never said I "liked" Grand Am in it's current form, in fact I've been more critical about it in the past than almost anybody on this website, but it seems there are some that 'gasp' hate it when I dare to be critical about the ALMS. I just think this is a very posititve step forward for american sportscar racing so far.

We're talking about relative terms and reality which may be hard to understand, but the Dyson Mazda is a CHICANE in it's own series, the series it is supposed to run in. A DP or GT is not in the series it is supposed to and designed to run in if it becomes a chicane if it raced in the ALMS. Why spend 10 Million to make yourselves a top LMP1 team when you can spend 3.8-4 Million on a top DP team in two series with equal levels of interest right now? Why would you spend any money (unless you're an amateur, which let's face it, Dyson has been since they lost Weaver) to essentially be slower than LMPC cars?

An LMP1 getting overtaken by LMPC in ALMS is just like a DP team getting overtaken by a GT in Grand Am, oh wait, Dyson already experienced that with their abortion of an 'effort' with Godstone Ranch in DP at Miller in 2010...

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Fixed for accuracy, not as funny though.

Chris

No I have no associatons with NASCAR, I'm not drunk and haven't been stoned since my university years, so no high-up positions for me.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Never said I "liked" Grand Am in it's current form, in fact I've been more critical about it in the past than almost anybody on this website, but it seems there are some that 'gasp' hate it when I dare to be critical about the ALMS. I just think this is a very posititve step forward for american sportscar racing so far.

We're talking about relative terms and reality which may be hard to understand, but the Dyson Mazda is a CHICANE in it's own series, the series it is supposed to run in. A DP or GT is not in the series it is supposed to and designed to run in if it becomes a chicane if it raced in the ALMS. Why spend 10 Million to make yourselves a top LMP1 team when you can spend 3.8-4 Million on a top DP team in two series with equal levels of interest right now? Why would you spend any money (unless you're an amateur, which let's face it, Dyson has been since they lost Weaver) to essentially be slower than LMPC cars?

An LMP1 getting overtaken by LMPC in ALMS is just like a DP team getting overtaken by a GT in Grand Am, oh wait, Dyson already experienced that with their abortion of an 'effort' with Godstone Ranch in DP at Miller in 2009...

You can be critical of ALMS. I LOVE ALMS, but that doesn't mean I blindly support everything that they do. I'm as critical as anyone here about them.

Not enough TV. Not enough LMPs. No LMP factory efforts. Too many classes. Big Honkin' Holes. Big Honkin' Fins. Not enough races.

But I get the impression that Grand Am will just absorb ALMS and run the DPs and GTs as they do now in Grand Am. And that everyone here thinks that it is just great and American sportscar racing will boom into a magical prosperous period of 100,000+ fans attending each race.

But if the merger results with the DPs and current Grand AM GTs running, trackside attendance is going to be about as abysmal as it is now and hardly anyone will care.

We will see what happens, but Grand Am will have to adopt something from ALMS if it wants viewers and butts in seats.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

ALMS was going nowhere at best or on a downward spiral at worst (today's race shows it and past issues that have accumulated show it)

Grand Am was going nowhere at best or on a downward spiral at worst (this year's grid numbers show it)


Something had to give in the end, and it turns out it was the ALMS. If this is executed correctly, then it could be very, very good. If it isn't, then it will eventually fail and die out. It will soon after then be replaced by something else from some other rich guy or passionate sanctioning body, welcome to sportscar racing. Nothing is 'forever' in motorsports, and except for F1 and NASCAR that applies to the series themselves as well.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

No I have no associatons with NASCAR, I'm not drunk and haven't been stoned since my university years, so no high-up positions for me.

My mistake, I misrepresented you. What I meant to say by that, and it reflects my opinions, is that as sports car racing fans we cannot trust NASCAR. If you've followed the sport of auto racing in North America since the Big Bill France era ended, NASCAR has become far more nefarious - if only in rumor.

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

ALMS was going nowhere at best or on a downward spiral at worst (today's race shows it and past issues that have accumulated show it)

Grand Am was going nowhere at best or on a downward spiral at worst (this year's grid numbers show it)


Something had to give in the end, and it turns out it was the ALMS. If this is executed correctly, then it could be very, very good. If it isn't, then it will eventually fail and die out. It will soon after then be replaced by something else from some other rich guy or passionate sanctioning body, welcome to sportscar racing. Nothing is 'forever' in motorsports, and except for F1 and NASCAR that applies to the series themselves as well.

Agreed here.

And we still don't know the extent of this merger. I'm holding out hope that the Graham Goodwin source is on to something. If not, either way this could be positive for the sport. Larger grid numbers and all stakeholders under one umbrella could force Grand-Am/NASCAR's hand.

Or it could have the opposite effect... again, let's wait and see.

Chris

[gregtummer]

My point is: Is that people make fun of the LMP car count and ALMS's horrible TV deal. But yet Grand Am is aired live and replayed on the NASCAR Network (SPEED) AND the teams have to be paid to race. Grand Am would have 2-3 DP teams racing if they were not paid to race too, but no one points that out. Despite all this, ALMS has far better attendance and seems to have more interest in the series.

If Grand Am absorbs ALMS and changes nothing, then not much will change. There will be a few more teams competing, but the stands will be empty and the fan interest will stay down.

[MitchZ06]

I think it needs to be an ALMS focused series vs the crappy Grand-Am DPs and GTs to really have some pzazz. If LMPs and GTEs are ditched, goodbye NA sportscar racing.

[broadrun96]

This almost feels to me like combining two failing businesses and hoping something good happens, and all of us US based posters know how well that worked for Kmart and Sears. Personally hoping the meetings with the FIA and GrandAm lead to the new series being an LMS type series with P2s being the top class. Seemed to be similar goals, starting from different points in both P2 and DP with the cost caps and limited development in season. Not sure how well it will work for some of the GT teams as they get close to both the P2/DP on a good part of the schedule. I'll choose to think positive but at the same time celebrate this year as if it's the last Petit and prepare to trek to Austin if I have to.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

I think it needs to be an ALMS focused series vs the crappy Grand-Am DPs and GTs to really have some pzazz. If LMPs and GTEs are ditched, goodbye NA sportscar racing.

Yeah, one of ALMS GT or the forward-thinking technologies of the P-classes need to survive in a new, American-controlled, American-centered sports car racing series.

Sports car racing can't squander this unification opportunity the way IndyCar did the AOWR unification/merger/capitulation.

Chris

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

This almost feels to me like combining two failing businesses and hoping something good happens, and all of us US based posters know how well that worked for Kmart and Sears.

1. ALMS + GA
2. ????
3. Profit

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Interesting to note:

Domination of American Stock Car Racing (since formed)
Domination of Canadian Stock Car Racing (since 2006)
Domination of American Motorcycle Racing (since 2009)
Domination of American Sports Car Racing (2014 and beyond)

Over/Under 10 years until Indycar (aowr) gets taken over by NASCAR and their partners?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Interesting to note:

Domination of American Stock Car Racing (since formed)
Domination of Canadian Stock Car Racing (since 2006)
Domination of American Motorcycle Racing (since 2009)
Domination of American Sports Car Racing (2014 and beyond)

Over/Under 10 years until Indycar (aowr) gets taken over by NASCAR and their partners?

When Mari Hulman George is dead and buried. Maybe Tony as well. NASCAR wants the Speedway. The rest of the series does them no good.

I don't think it would be as bad as people make it out to be. What if we got Formula A back? Would be prefect to match up with Grand Am weekends. A symbiotic relationship between the two like the Japanese do it with Nippon and Super GT. Would be great, IMO.

[Maelochs]

“Cant see why the aco would turn their backs on a series that is a feeder to the wec (sort of). The stronger the 3 regional champs are the stronger the wec will be. Anyway...”

What ACO did was create a competing product that relied on the same resources ALSM and ELMS relied on. Remember ELMS? The one that had to Shut Down midseason because the new WEC took all its top teams?

Still “Cant see why the aco would turn their backs on a series that is a feeder to the wec”? Because they figured the WEC would make them a lot more money.

WEC made sure that any teams, and any factories, trying to decide between the European Market and the North American market would instead opt for the WEC. It worked so well it killed both series.

WEC didn’t do all of it. There was plenty of interest in the prototype classes. But once the economy crashed and NASACR bought out Speed TV (ALMS races could not have run live on Speed even with time buys, because of conflicts with GA races that first year, so ALMS was looking at lousy timeslots and taped races even on Speed) ALMS was sort of lost. No one wanted to buy three-and-a-half hour programs, and Dr. Don didn’t want to buy TV time—he preferred to build the Abruzzi.

With no serious TV package (even thought the new TV deal eventually reached more eyeballs than Speed ever did—no one knew that or thought it could be the case until it was too late) it was too hard to raise money to race prototypes. Even two-time champs Highcroft Racing couldn’t find sponsors for what looked like a second-rate series (no serious ATV package.)

The economy was crashed by greedy, unregulated speculators; ACO didn’t do that. But ACO did make sure that any manufacturer considering a new series wouldn’t bother to look at either ALMS or ELMS.

Then we have this: “Whoever gets control of the series after the merger wont do something stupid like dump the ALMS prototype class. You dont merge with something and then cut off one half's biggest asset.”

Well a lot of people don’t seem to think the P-cars were an asset. Further: Grand Am already has a P-class, it is called Daytons Prototype, and all the teams just bought new cars. There is no reason why GA wouldn’t dump the ALMS class structure entirely. All it has to do is keep airing racers and anyone who wants to watch multiclass sports car racing will have to was Grand Am.

I see no reason Grand Am would adopt the ALMS class structure when all but GTE had four or five cars max, and P1 and Ps Combined had less than half-a-dozen. I don’t see whay GA would make all its existing teams buy all new machinery—it doesn’t make sense.

Grand Am can tell ALMS teams, “Buy a GA-spec GT3 or a DP—either will cost you less than your ALMS rides—and come racing in our series which isn’t the loser battle for supremacy. We won. You guys join us or so something else. We will get half your viewers by default no matter what you do.”

ALMS teams would mostly have needed new cars for 2014 anyway, and GA teams can run most of their exiting cars for another five years. I see no reason at all to keep ALMS classes.

To Jacques rabbit et al: Yes the cars Are the Stars—except this is America where Cheese Is King. This is America, where most people don’t know reality shows are staged. This is America, where substance is something that hinders Style. This is America, where Content is considered boring and packaging is considered important.

This is America, where “Spin” is more important than “Fact,” and “Facts” are useful only in that they can help “Spin.” Thuis is the country where people blatantly deny facts even in the face of overwhelming evidence, and most Americans believe the denial if it was the last thing they saw on TV.

That’s why I think all these people with their rosy predictions are Pollyannas. Look what NASCAR has done to every series it has touched—(and only one of the (NASCAR) works. AMA and Grand Am are failures. As gregtummer notes: “Grand Am is paying almost all the DP teams to race. So Grand Am ain't paying bills either without NASCAR money.”)

The emphasis is Not on content at all, and totally on packaging and manufactured excitement—nothing to do with the competition between cars, crews, and drivers and everything to do with creating a saleable product.

And this: “DP has a formula which at it's base and in it's infant stages is a bit homogenous, but it has potential to grow into something just as diverse as P1 and P2 was in the actual heyday of the ALMS.”

Really? Funny, it seems to me all the DPs have subtle variations of the same chassis and bodywork, and engines so tightly controlled it is illegal to find more horsepower or torque. Compare that to LMP1 where trend-setting design changes are developed.

The whole philosophy of Grand Am is that the cars are equal. Innovation and development cost many and cause other than close finishes, which only real race fans can appreciate. Too hard to market: keep everyone on the same low level, and every race will be close. So DPs will Never have anything like the diversity and innovation of real prototypes.

Yeah, DP has the Potential to grow into anything; however, so does anything. Fact is, Grand Am stands to gain Nothing by opening up DP rules. Modern cars will still outperform DPs, and DPs only saving grace—that they can be used for five years—would be lost.

People who don’t think cars are the stars are just different. There are people here for which Cars Are the Stars—those are the people which flock to ALMS races. Having been to several races from each series, I can say for sure people don’t flock to GA races.

As for Porsche and Audi wanting to be in North America: A couple options. One is NASCAR’s proposed American DTM. Another is for Audi and Porsche to make DP bodywork like the phony “Corvette DP.” Much cheaper way to get the name and grille badge in front of TV viewers.

Third option: Count on the one U.S. WEC round at CotA. As with winning Le Mans, wining at a track that’s in the news counts a lot more than winning at VIR.

With DP bodywork and a regular WEC entry, factories could get a lot more bang for their buck on every continent. Of course, the Grand Am cars would all be Rileys and Coyotes, but hey, Spin!

As to NASCAR buying IMS and Indycar? Count on it. Probably while Tony George is still alive, and probably not long after Randy Bernard steps down. The Sisters will be old and tired, the offer from NASCAR will be sweet, Tony Geoprge will be offered a role in running things (which he will later discover actually gives him no power, because the France family doesn't share power.)

Yeah, ten years, fifteen max and NASCaR will own or control every type or professional racing and all the feeder series in the U.S. and Canada. All will be predigested pap, products suited to Non-racing fans, because let's face it, Non-racing fans outnumber racing fans.

Finally: “The Petit LeMans is going to be renamed "The Goody's Headache Powder Atlanta 1000"?” We wish.

Sebring and Petit are going to be shortened to three hours like the Brickyard GP “endurance” event at IMS. Better for TV, and only diehards and “Cars Are the Stars” folks came out to see the longer races anyway, right?

Look for Daytona Prototype (Now with Turbos!) Grand Am GT which is dumbed-down GT3, and Gx for 2014. Look for a wider variety of grille stickers denoting more manufacturers producing bodywork which has been stringently tested to Not be better than anyone else’s, because Grand Am knows that technology leads to smarter people doing better, which is UnAmerican.

Look for real endurance racing with innovative engineering … on the web. It will come to North America once a year, so try to get to Texas. Otherwise, get good at finding web streams.

I have been to all kinds of racing, from small-town figure 8 and oval to Autocross to all the pro and feeder series offered in the U.S. I have seen up close and personal at IndyCar, Grand Am, NASCAR, World Endurance Challenge and ALMS races.

I know what I like, and form conversations with other fans, I know what I like is liked widely. I know NASCAR/Grand Am will be able to produce a tolerable product, but cannot and will not want to provide the things I truly love in racing.

GA will gain a lot of ALMS fans simply because that will be all there is, and those folks will be jonesing for sports car racing. And as with many cheap, over-cut ersatz drugs, those fans will get their fixes and still know something is lacking, but have no options.

If that smells like victory to you, inhale deeply. It smells like decay to me, but to each his own.

[gregtummer]

And at the end of each Grand Am race, we can have 12 DPs running in a pack and then have "the big one", with the cars crashing upside down on their roof sliding across the finish line with a huge fireball inferno.

That will draw in the fans!

[Purist]

I don't HAVE TO accept it if that is what happens. Plenty of us have video libraries of the racing we DO want, and enough races in them to keep us occupied for a LONG TIME.

Maelochs, I really do think the "real racing fans" will burn out on that VERY FAST, and then they'll be gone. With empty tracks and poor TV viewing, NASCAR won't be able to justify wasting money on this, and the tracks won't be able to justify it either, because they're NOT selling tickets. Unless NASCAR wants to become the welfare provider for auto racing over here, they WILL HAVE TO give this up, if your vision is what results.

[mountainstar]

Well I guess this is the end of the road.

For good or bad, Nascar will own almost all professional motorsports in the USA.

There will not be any future for anything else out there.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Purist

I don't HAVE TO accept it if that is what happens. Plenty of us have video libraries of the racing we DO want, and enough races in them to keep us occupied for a LONG TIME.

YEP. If 2014 Sebring/Daytona comes around and it is "Grand Am rules and Grand Am cars", I'm watching my IMSA and ALMS library of Daytona/Sebring races instead of anything NASCAR force-feeds us.

Originally Posted by Purist

Maelochs, I really do think the "real racing fans" will burn out on that VERY FAST, and then they'll be gone. With empty tracks and poor TV viewing, NASCAR won't be able to justify wasting money on this, and the tracks won't be able to justify it either, because they're NOT selling tickets. Unless NASCAR wants to become the welfare provider for auto racing over here, they WILL HAVE TO give this up, if your vision is what results.

NASCAR are big enough narcissists that they will subsidize Grand Am with NASCAR money no matter how big of a failure it is, because they do not want any Real Racing competition to their racing monopoly.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Purist

I don't HAVE TO accept it if that is what happens. Plenty of us have video libraries of the racing we DO want, and enough races in them to keep us occupied for a LONG TIME.

AMEN!

[lms]

"With DP bodywork and a regular WEC entry, factories could get a lot more bang for their buck on every continent. Of course, the Grand Am cars would all be Rileys and Coyotes, but hey, Spin!" -

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

:

The economy was crashed by greedy, unregulated speculators;

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Well I guess this is the end of the road.

For good or bad, Nascar will own almost all professional motorsports in the USA.

There will not be any future for anything else out there.

And once NASCAR becomes bankrupt, all of the series that they owned will be perished too. Of course, I don't want a Death Race-like series in the future.

Still, the only thing the merged series needs is to sort out the prototypes with a common goal and some compromises along the way. I'm thinking they could field a silhouette prototype car (Think DP) with extreme, yet convincing bodywork and LMP2 levels of performance at a fraction of the cost.

[Piratedred]

GA will never allow the 24h @ Daytona and the 12h @ Sebring to be run almost a month apart. It doesn't give the teams the time to prep between races.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Piratedred

GA will never allow the 24h @ Daytona and the 12h @ Sebring to be run almost a month apart. It doesn't give the teams the time to prep between races.

lmao, sure it does.

btw, the current corvette DP is one of the best looking sportscar ever, imo.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Piratedred

GA will never allow the 24h @ Daytona and the 12h @ Sebring to be run almost a month apart. It doesn't give the teams the time to prep between races.

How about they should stage the 24H at Daytona in late January.

[rich07]

Wow. Just Wow. I go away for a day and this happens?

There's too much to take in right now, Im overwhelmed.

All I'll say is-if the DPs are the top class and LMPs are not in this new championship then I'll struggle to be interested. Love LMPs racing on American tracks. DP cars just dont look as crazy cornering wise.

GT Im less concerned about.