Group 5 BMW 320's.

[kurtiejjj]

Peterson's car on the photo isn't a tubeframe car.

@drivers71: Great set of photos!

[kurtiejjj]

Where has this one gone: http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bmw...0/77-320ss.htm

[Alex E]

Mnsty,
My understanding from this end is that Busby received 2 cars late in `78. One was ch #16 which was the car built in early `77 & used by BMW as a turbo car through `77 and also into `78. Your car (which I think would be around ch # 30-40...) was built as a replacement during `78 but was only tested, not raced before it went to Busby. This was around the same time Peterson was killed at Monza.
I think ch # 16 was driven only once by Busby, as the newer car was converted to more of a spaceframe & was lighter / faster. As you know both cars went to Frank Gardner. Your car returned to the USA after a few years, I brought the other car back to England about 10 years ago. It is now back in Germany.

Alex

[mnsty]

Alex,
Here are two galleries of pictures to compare the different specifications of the two cars "16" and "tubeframe". In the 1st gallery
http://munsty.smugmug.com/gallery/70...50134391_jXK6w
You can see the car as delivered to Jim (on trailer) in front of his shop in Laguna Beach, Ca and the pictures posted the other day on the site.
In the 2nd gallery are pictures I scanned of "16" and other pictures that were sent to me of that car.
http://munsty.smugmug.com/gallery/31...75115746_WfVjY
If the works car did indeed come to Busby which I think we agree it did,
it would not ever be seen in early configuration IE:
forward mounted radiators, trunk tanks, bootlid fillers as the works car can clearly be seen to have the latest type configuration with the NACA duct fenders and the fuel fillers on the fender tops.
There are other chassis differences (trailing arm mounting points and such on the late cars) that would take to much typing.
I know you know these cars very well and I am just trying to straighten out the histories to the best of my knowledge and information.
I would like to talk to you on the phone, I think we could make more progress,
if you want to, send me a private message with your number and I'll give you a call.
Cory

[mnsty]

Originally Posted by kurtiejjj

Peterson's car on the photo isn't a tubeframe car.

@drivers71: Great set of photos!

Not at the time the factory had it. It was tubeframed by Busby in early 79

[Alex E]

Mnsty,
I am a bit confured as to what you mean when you say #16 would not be seen in older configuration ?
Interesting pictures though, give me a day or two & I will dig out some old papers / pictures & see what I can find.
Are the chassis numbers on the surviving McLaren cars known (I mean the BMW numbers...) or were they also lost when the car was modified ?
Alex

[mnsty]

Alex,
What I'm trying to say is, the car that's in the pictures with Peterson driving
Is a late version car with rear radiators and is the latest spec the factory ran.
Of Busby’s two cars, one is a late specification car and one is an early version Grp 5 car (converted into a turbo) it makes sense that (if a works car went to Busby)
Which one did, then that car would be the late spec car that Jim had.
As I assume you know, the changes were much more than simple fender changes between the two versions. Jim had one 1 early and 1 late car. They both left Busby in late 79 still in their respective configurations. How would a car that was running in the late configuration in Europe in 1978 end up running in a early configuration in 1979, and into the present day. you can't just change them back and forth as the chassis are very different especially in the rear, different trailing arms and trailing arm pickup point locations, different fuel tanks, radiator mounting locations Etc.
Also, the picture of the rolling chassis that is chassis #16 shows it to be a early car with (among other things) the rear seat area intact, so, not able to hold the deep style rear seat tanks that the lightweight cars had, that area is completely different on my car and on the Mclaren 003 car from a early car.
The Mclaren "003" car which is the other lightweight car (like mine) never had a BMW issued number because the chassis was delivered to Mclaren in the white and they built the car from there, that was probably the 1st Lightweight chassis built by Motorsport (I would assume) one of the other cars "001" is living in the Midwest USA, I talked to the mechanic today to see if he has ever gotten around to checking for a chassis number and he hasn't but promised to do it very soon.
The other car here in the states is "002" (BMWs' car) I have seen at the races but I failed to look for a chassis number, next time I see it I will.
Have you ever seen a Lightweight style car? I don't know how many lightweights were built,
So I don't know if you have been able to compare the actual differences between the versions.
Let me know what you think.
Cory

[ian beckett]

I have an article from Road and Track which summarises Busby's proposed participation in the US for '79.In it it states that two cars were delivered to Busby's Californian raceshop,one was brand new with testing mileage only and two was the car raced by Stuck and Peterson in a few World Sportscar rounds in Europe in '78.Busby did 9 IMSA rounds and 1 in the Trans Am(I have all the results) and the car was then replaced with the M1.Neither car was particularly successful and after having run a March built M1 Group 5 car in '80,Busby switched to a 935. In my notes I have that one may have been E21-R4? Ian.

[mnsty]

Ian,
The point I'm trying to make is this, the car in the pictures (Silverstone/Nurburgring) is not an early spec grp 5 car. it is a late version like mine and the 003 Mclaren car.
The articles that say it was a new car with testing miles only can probably be attributed to the fact that after the crash at the Nurburgring it was rebuilt to repair the damage, tested and then sold to Busby. It basically was a new car as it had only "competed" in two events, Silverstone (retired with broken gearbox) and the Nurburgring (crashed in practice)
It is possible that Peterson/Stuck drove both my car and #16 but what I know is the car in the Nurburgring/ Silverstone pictures is a late chassis matching the configuration of my car and not the #16 car. The pictures clearly bear that out.
Cory

[Alex E]

Hi Cory,
I had a dig around & looked through some old papers etc...hopefully by a process of elimination we can help find more about your car. As you probably know BMW only ran the car / cars in a few races. And did not finish any of them ! Obviously I know a lot about # 16. It was originally built specifically as a turbo car, not a modified aspirated car. It was built with the fuel cells under the rear seat area, and with the radiators in the rear. As you know the first McLaren cars had the radiators in front of the rear wheels, and later they were fitted behind the wheels. I am sure that in a photo I have (which I can`t find at the moment...) of the car being tested at Nurburgring in winter 77/78 it is clear that the rads are behind the rear wheels. And by this time the new style bodywork has been fitted, to accomodate the radiators.

As for the races, # 16 was first raced at Brands Hatch in September `77 in it`s original format.In `78 the Mugello race in March, I know for certain that #16 went to that race. I also know it was damaged in testing at the Nurburgring in April but repaired before the Silverstone race. I am pretty sure it went to Silverstone. But that is not to say they didn`t take another car to these races. More research required !

Regarding the Mclaren cars, they would certainly have had BMW chassis numbers on them when they left Germany. So it is worth looking into that. I know that BMW built one complete car in early `78 specifically for IMSA.

It is difficuly to see detail on your pictures of the cars, it would help to be able to see better ones.

Regards Alex.

[mnsty]

Originally Posted by Alex E

Hi Cory,
I had a dig around & looked through some old papers etc...hopefully by a process of elimination we can help find more about your car. As you probably know BMW only ran the car / cars in a few races. And did not finish any of them ! Obviously I know a lot about # 16. It was originally built specifically as a turbo car,( A turbo car, but not the latest specification) not a modified aspirated car. It was built with the fuel cells under the rear seat area,(In the pictures I have seen of #16 from today, it looks like it has the tanks in the underseat area, but the early one piece type. the sheetmetal in my car and 003 Mclaren are totally different from the earlier cars and have two seperate deep tanks that drop through the car and fit into two seperate fiberglass boxes and are filled from the fender tops, and have no trunk tanks. with the fuel tanks and boxes removed there is a large hole through to the ground) and with the radiators in the rear. As you know the first McLaren cars had the radiators in front of the rear wheels, and later they were fitted behind the wheels.(only 1 Mclaren car has the radiators behind the rear wheels, 003) I am sure that in a photo I have (which I can`t find at the moment...) of the car being tested at Nurburgring in winter 77/78 it is clear that the rads are behind the rear wheels. And by this time the new style bodywork has been fitted, to accomodate the radiators. (on the late cars like mine and 003, that share the same bodywork, the same bodywork that is on the car in the Silverstone and Ring pictures, it's not just the fenders, the wheelhouse is deeper towards the center of the car and the outboard trailing arm mounting points are farther inward with a corresponding deeper trailing arm to accomodate the 19X14" wheels these cars ran.

As for the races, # 16 was first raced at Brands Hatch in September `77 in it`s original format.In `78 the Mugello race in March, I know for certain that #16 went to that race. I also know it was damaged in testing at the Nurburgring in April but repaired before the Silverstone race. I am pretty sure it went to Silverstone. But that is not to say they didn`t take another car to these races. More research required !

Regarding the Mclaren cars, they would certainly have had BMW chassis numbers on them when they left Germany.( I'm sure they did except 003 as it was built from a bare lightweight shell supplied to Mclaren) So it is worth looking into that. I know that BMW built one complete car in early `78 specifically for IMSA. (that would probably be my car which I think was taken to Silverstone 6hr (Retired) and the Ring (crashed) since it was built as a new car with new, updated componenets, it would make sense that they wanted to test the car in actual race conditions.

It is difficuly to see detail on your pictures of the cars, it would help to be able to see better ones. (What detail would you like to see? I'll take any pictures you would like)

Regards Alex.

I still don't understand why a car that was built with the latest bodywork and component location as you say #16 was, would end up in America with Busby in early trim, how could it be backdated? that's what I don't understand.
I wish we could sit down with a beer and go over the information we have.
Talk soon.
Cory

[mnsty]

Alex,
Can you please post or send me a few pictures of #16 with the rear fenders off, I have some, but the resolution is not that great and they are not very close up.
Cory

[Alex E]

Hi Cory,
Is there no way of finding your original BMW ch #, there must have been documents / invoices with it on when it arrived in the US ?

I don`t have # 16 any more, but I do have some pictures of the bodyshell somewhere.

What did Busby do with # 16 while he had it. Did he change it at all ? I know he said he only drove it once as it was basically a spare car.

Regards Alex.

[mnsty]

Hello Alex,
All of the pictures I have of the car show it unchanged from original spec, I think they spent all their time on the late car.
I'm going to call Busby today and ask him if he has any documents. at one time he said he had all that info, another time he said he would try to find it. I have one of his files on the cars, including pictures and misc info.
Talk to you soon.
Cory

[collector]

Where has this one gone: http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bmw...0/77-320ss.htm

This should be the JB-Racing (Rüdiger Julius-Bernhard) car which was sold to a collector. Maurice Girard used the car with turbo engine for some hillclimbs some years ago.

[mnsty]

Alex,
I called Jim Busby today and it turns out we are both correct. The early car, #16 was in fact a works car driven by (as he remembers) Winkelhock, Stuck and probably Peterson (his words) in quite a few races.
He recalled traveling to Germany to sign his contract in 78 and #16 was already there with races on it and my car was in the chassis shop being built
He said that my car was driven a 1 or 2 races, crashed by Peterson rebuilt and delivered to him as a virtually new car.
Jim said as he remembers, these two cars were the only "works" 2 liter turbos there were, at least at the time he was there.
The cars were as the pictures show, two completely different specification cars, as he recalls having two styles of bodywork for the different cars.
Regards,
Cory

[drivers71]

Forgotten I'd seen this 320. The Preben Kristoffersen 320 at the Donington DTM in 1980 (Not a point-scoring event):
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...DPG5074-51.jpg
and on the track:

[Frank de Jong]

Originally Posted by drivers71

Forgotten I'd seen this 320. The Preben Kristoffersen 320 at the Donington DTM in 1980 (Not a point-scoring event):
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/j...DPG5074-51.jpg

Rich, I guess that's the car of good old Walter Brun. Still a nice picture though.

[ian beckett]

Hi guys,the car(post #192) is in fact a GS Tuning car driven by Bernd Brutschin.His brother Harald drove a second car at the same meeting,Ian.

[drivers71]

Thanks for the correction Ian; I'll correct my records accordingly.
This was one event where I didn't get a programme, for some unknown reason.

[driftwood]

I have some info on my BMW 320i i wonder if any of you guiys can shed some light
I called Christer Simonsen today he said kenneth leim bought the BMW i have form a german Count/Baron who had acastle with a collection of cars
sadly no more info until i can get hold of kenneth leim on the phone who has so far not answered his cel
So i wonder if you know who this Count / Baron could be?

i know the history from 82 thru to John Westerman thru Don Vitos website link

I just need to fill in the gap from 1978 Gustav Fischer racing to 82 Leim/Simonsen WCM 1000km races and then 40k to restore the car
Cap is at my feet!

[Nordic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...varia_(b._1943)

I expect it has already crossed your mind but given his links to BMW, this Baron springs to mind.

[driftwood]

it did go thru my mind it could be Leopold van Bayern but i think he came onto race scene in the 80`s with M1 Procar onwards but it is not inconceivable it was his castle and collection!
i hope to catch up with Kenneth tomorrow

[Nordic]

According to Wiki

It was there the Prince developed his love for cars and racing. He started his career with rallying and in 1969 moved to touring car racing winning the North American Championships with Porsche in 1972. In 1984 he also took part in the legendary sports car endurance race 24 Hours of Le Mans together with Walter Brun and Bob Akin, finishing fourth. In 1986, Leopold became a factory driver for the Munich based car manufacturer BMW and although he retired from competitive racing in 1998, he remains involved with the BMW racing team as an adviser.

Its the right era and the family concern did sponsor a 320. Looking forward to the answer!

[Alex E]

Drifty,
As you know when I had the car I went down the same path as you are now. One thing Kenneth Leim did remember was that they bought the car in Northern Germany, maybe Hannover area. Maybe he will tell you this when you speak to him. von Bayern was obviously in Bavaria so not likely to be him.
When Leim & Simonsen bought the car they were not intending to buy a 320, they were going to buy a Porsche but it fell through at the last minute so they bought the 320. He commented on the relative lack of power compared to other 320`s that were using M12 engines. I think the Schnitzer motor was 20 bhp less.

Good luck, Alex