BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Personally, I'd stop bothering with the cheap knock-offs and bring the original, i.e. V8-Supercars. Now of course they are crazy expensive and you's never get a full grid, but do you need to?

You's? Honestly? What is it with Australians that they can single-handedly mutilate the English language to an extent that exceeds even the Americans?

There is no such word as you's. The plural of "you" is "you." Or, you can even say something like, "You guys," if it makes you feel more comfortable.

The only "you's" you will find around here are ewes, of which there are plenty in both Australia and New Zealand...

[NZSTfan]

Thanks for the English lesson GB. I think he/she is German aren't they? (Just going off their location and signature).

CDM, what you have to understand with me, is that for the best part of supertourers life, I have been a spectator, not really giving a hoot about rules, as all I wanted to see was great drivers in great cars.

It is only since about April last year that I have become more 'involved' at pitlane level. I don't have a copy of the rulebook, and quite frankly I don't want one. All I can go off is what people in teams tell me is an infringement, which, lets face it, more than often does not get enforced. So the series is made to look a farce.

Call me a slow-learner if you like, doesn't bother me. But the above is fact.

On a side note, I must congratulate you on a previous post where you mention your encouragement of kids getting into their favourite 2kCup cars. I think that's great what you did there, and something that other categories could learn from, if they don't do that already.

I don't have kids, but I do know that if they get interested in something from an early age then that bodes well for the sport, and it means that the family unit can do something that they all enjoy. Good stuff...

[mikuni]

St, no doubt you have read it again, but in case you haven't, do yourself a favour and do so.
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...37#post3499937

Personally I think in this case, you have simply been caught out for talking up your involvement a little. I took it from what you were writing as that you are a 'hanger on' if you forgive the impression, however others clearly have a problem with the fact that you continually make reference to the team as "us", "we" and "the team", implying your involvement within said team.

It is obvious that you are a sponsor, but it is also clear that you do play some part within the team. This dodging of the rule by a technicality is what often bugs people with motorsport and sport in general. You could have a lead mechanic in charge of setting up the car, who doesn't touch the car, and isn't deemed to be part of "the team", who goes for hot laps to assist with the set up. By your logic, this person could also be able to get around the rule, as long as he isn't paid by the team (which is certainly a possibility with these type of family based teams).

I'm just trying to give a scenario and an explanation as to why there is an issue, as it looks like you can't see the wood for the trees.

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Well put socram.
And I have just got off the phone to the team owner who fell about laughing regarding this situation. His comments where 'you are a sponsor, and as such you are entitled to some hotlaps. If it just so happens that you, as a sponsor, can provide us with information on the weather then that's a bonus for us, but we don't act on your information alone, that's what the team is there to do'

So, maybe other teams should be looking for a weather geek too? As it seems to some on here, my weather analysis is a huge benefit to any team.

GT, your comments are bang on too. I have seen MANY infringements of even just the basic rules around pit stops etc. Did they get pinged, no.

So if the class is struggling because no-one is enforcing these rules, then that is a huge area for improvement, and should be looked at right away.

I also think the class is struggling due to other reasons too, one of them being the apparent high cost of replacement parts. An ST engineer said to me that if the teams where simply given tolerances on the parts they could use, then that would allow lower budget teams to participate. He spoke in particular of the front splitter, which costs around $5k before painting etc. They are made from fibre-glass from what I can tell. Ask anyone who deals with fibre-glass, and they will tell you that the splitter is a $1k - $1.5k item tops. So who is clipping the ticket on these items? And that is just one item. Another often talked about is radiators and the cost of these compared to something that is basically identical. I don't know the actual radiator costs sorry, as that is none of my business, but I have been privy to some info that suggests the mark-up on this item alone is quite substantial.

But there is another can of worms. Its a controlled class, so I can see the importance of having a controlled part supplier. But that means that the supplier could put whatever mark-up they want on the products because they have a 'done-deal' and everyone has to buy through them. If the 'give us the tolerances and we'll take it from there' approach is applied, then that gives teams the chances to bend to rules (which I don't mind, innovation is everything in this sport), but if no-one is there to properly scrutineer the cars under this model, then alas, we have another case of 'no-one following the rules' again.

GT, if you find out who those other motorsport criminals are, then I have been given a large cell in D block. They say safety is in numbers, so maybe, if arrested by the fun police, they can share the cell with me. We could talk about motorsport while trying to dig a tunnel out of there....

But seriously, it is clear that in my case, I have not broken any rules because the rule (at this point) is not clear enough. That gives teams plenty of legroom when trying to negotiate their way around things.

Tighten up ST, get good forceful people on the ground and a rulebook that is black and white, and can be enforced by Lady Poppins if need be.

If this rule book has been this open since day 1, then we have a problem, Houston.

Right,

you broke the rules, new front nose is carbon fibre all were being repaired in fibreglass which is a no, moulds are out there.

you just woke up to the fact that people where bending the rules.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

I also think the class is struggling due to other reasons too, one of them being the apparent high cost of replacement parts. An ST engineer said to me that if the teams where simply given tolerances on the parts they could use, then that would allow lower budget teams to participate. He spoke in particular of the front splitter, which costs around $5k before painting etc. They are made from fibre-glass from what I can tell. Ask anyone who deals with fibre-glass, and they will tell you that the splitter is a $1k - $1.5k item tops. So who is clipping the ticket on these items? And that is just one item. Another often talked about is radiators and the cost of these compared to something that is basically identical. I don't know the actual radiator costs sorry, as that is none of my business, but I have been privy to some info that suggests the mark-up on this item alone is quite substantial.

But there is another can of worms. Its a controlled class, so I can see the importance of having a controlled part supplier. But that means that the supplier could put whatever mark-up they want on the products because they have a 'done-deal' and everyone has to buy through them. If the 'give us the tolerances and we'll take it from there' approach is applied, then that gives teams the chances to bend to rules (which I don't mind, innovation is everything in this sport), but if no-one is there to properly scrutineer the cars under this model, then alas, we have another case of 'no-one following the rules' again.

Hi Stu,
There you go again not putting your brain into gear, before running off at the mouth. Please Please, stop posting about things you have no idea about.

For your information, the complete front bumper portion of a V8ST or for a V8SC for that matter is know in the industry as a "Bar". The Bar is not made of fiberglass as you claim, but made largely of Carbon Fibre, and Kevlar and as such its a true composite of exotic space-age materials. Both the V8ST and V8SC front Bar's is made by Lightning Composite's in Queensland and must withstand significant loads, and occasional contact with other cars, and on street circuits in Australia, large tyre bundles.

Yes it could be made of much heavier Fiberglass for around NZ$2K but somebody has to pay for the mould's and so far nobody has been willing to do that.

The mould for the front Bar alone cost A$15K and each bar cost's A$3,500 plus freight, plus GST, so no body is being ripped off, and they can usually be repaired here in New Zealand for a few hundred dollars. Dominic Story will get a bill for less than $1,000 for the damage he did to AV8's front bar, and Tony DeAlberto front Bar damage will be even less.

I wont even go there on your utter ignorance of the rules and the policing of same.

[socram]

So the expectation is that there will be a bit of 'biff and bash'? I thought that was stock car racing?

Seems like a classic case of cranking up the cost of participation for all the wrong reasons if ever there was one. Adds to the import bill too, when there are any number of competent fiberglass specialists around in NZ.

[Rocket Man]

[QUOTE=socram;3501545]So the expectation is that there will be a bit of 'biff and bash'? I thought that was stock car racing?

FFS you guys, you are all making a storm in a tea cup. I for one are getting sick of all the BS, he said you said, how about something POSITIVE on this site. If you don't like something, don't watch it, don't comment on and go and play fkn golf where you can complain about your clubs or the others in your group cheating. Because those are the type of guys you sound like wingers and moaners.
Better still why aren't you up in Waitangi protesting.

And where the hell does "expecting etc "biff and bash" come from out of Marks comments (1 in red), nowhere.

And where, from Marks comments (2 in red) in is someone "cranking up the costs etc" If you like, you could offer to build a mould and make them, in fact why don't you and summit a cost for your time materials for the small number of Bars that are used each year in NZ, oh and don't forget not to crank up the cost to make some money yourself.

Why the hell don't you listen/read what a man of Marks experience is informing you people of. He does know what he is talking about.
Even if you have an axe to grind with him, he will call a spade a spade and a hammer a hammer.
Pity more people around don't put their hand up and tell the truth and admit their wrong doings or mistakes, or ask questions to get the correct answers instead of having a Psychedelic yodel about things that they don't really know about.

Oh by the way, I have NO, and I say NO involvement with ST, or any other V8 series in NZ or Aust, just a lover of Motorsport that would have loved to have had the money to be really involved.

Well that's my rant for another year. No doubt I will receive some backlash but hey I have big shoulders and a long memory.
Everyone have a Great NZ weekend.

Seems like a classic case of cranking up the cost of participation for all the wrong reasons if ever there was one. Adds to the import bill too, when there are any number of competent fiberglass specialists around in NZ.[/QUOTE =]


Hi Stu,
There you go again not putting your brain into gear, before running off at the mouth. Please Please, stop posting about things you have no idea about.

For your information, the complete front bumper portion of a V8ST or for a V8SC for that matter is know in the industry as a "Bar". The Bar is not made of fiberglass as you claim, but made largely of Carbon Fibre, and Kevlar and as such its a true composite of exotic space-age materials.Both the V8ST and V8SC front Bar's is made by Lightning Composite's in
(1) Queensland and must withstand significant loads, and occasional contact with other cars, and on street circuits in Australia, large tyre bundles.

(2) Yes it could be made of much heavier Fiberglass for around NZ$2K but somebody has to pay for the mould's and so far nobody has been willing to do that.

The mould for the front Bar alone cost A$15K and each bar cost's A$3,500 plus freight, plus GST, so no body is being ripped off, and they can usually be repaired here in New Zealand for a few hundred dollars. Dominic Story will get a bill for less than $1,000 for the damage he did to AV8's front bar, and Tony DeAlberto front Bar damage will be even less.

I wont even go there on your utter ignorance of the rules and the policing of same.

[promax]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

If you don't like something, don't watch it, don't comment on and go and play fkn golf where you can complain about your clubs or the others in your group cheating. Because those are the type of guys you sound like wingers and moaners

true

[promax]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That's just more of the same... another silhouette car with a spec-engine.

Personally, I'd stop bothering with the cheap knock-offs and bring the original, i.e. V8-Supercars. Now of course they are crazy expensive and you's never get a full grid, but do you need to? I don't think there's anything wrong with multi-class racing, so simply try to get a handful of professionally run and driven V8SCs to be your top class and then make up the rest of the grid with various other locally available modern-ish touring cars. Throw in some Porsche Cup-cars for good measure, perhaps?

I guess it would look somewhat like an updated version of this...

nah.. it's looks like this

https://www.facebook.com/sierdcnz

[socram]

The reason for bothering to post is quite simply that initially, we all had high hopes that this would be a huge success and we applauded Mark for the initiative.

Just in case you hadn't noticed, crowd numbers have dwindled to less than at a club meeting and one of the races last weekend was down to just 4 cars after the other 4 were taken out on the first lap.

If that doesn't invite comment I don't know what does. But fair enough, this will be my last post on here, merely pointing out the obvious and if that appears to be negative, in some people's eyes, so be it.

[Icarus_nz]

Promotable racing in New Zealand is in a hopeless state full stop.

Very very few posters on here are prepared to alter their thinking in any way. Their preference is to throw stones. They, and those like them, contribute to the problem.
Is it any wonder that very few people want to get involved in championship racing when there is a great mass of 'experts' gleefully telling anyone who will listen about problems?

What has been needed for a bunch of seasons is some strong leadership.
Our governing body appears to claim that is 'not their job'
The result of 'letting the market decide' in a country as small as ours is painfully apparent

The difference between 'display racing' and championship racing is the cost associated with the commitment to turn up to every round and start every race.

For sure clubby racing is strong. It's fun and there is no obligation to turn up or perform.
To put it in stick and ball terms, a bunch of people are having a high old time in the cricket nets and playing rounders and I applaud that.
What they are doing isn't scaleable.

Harping on about the past with rose tinted glasses is tiresome. The 'good old days' we're pretty crap old days at the time.

The sport needs every level to be strong. It a pity that more people don't get that

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Promotable racing in New Zealand is in a hopeless state full stop.

Very very few posters on here are prepared to alter their thinking in any way. Their preference is to throw stones. They, and those like them, contribute to the problem.
Is it any wonder that very few people want to get involved in championship racing when there is a great mass of 'experts' gleefully telling anyone who will listen about problems?

What has been needed for a bunch of seasons is some strong leadership.
Our governing body appears to claim that is 'not their job'
The result of 'letting the market decide' in a country as small as ours is painfully apparent

The difference between 'display racing' and championship racing is the cost associated with the commitment to turn up to every round and start every race.

For sure clubby racing is strong. It's fun and there is no obligation to turn up or perform.
To put it in stick and ball terms, a bunch of people are having a high old time in the cricket nets and playing rounders and I applaud that.
What they are doing isn't scaleable.

Harping on about the past with rose tinted glasses is tiresome. The 'good old days' we're pretty crap old days at the time.

The sport needs every level to be strong. It a pity that more people don't get that

At the risk of seeming like a "fan" your post above is once again 100% correct.

Sadly, in some way's, I do remember the so called good old Day's because I was there as a 13 year old kid at Ardmore, when Stirling Moss 'brained them in the wet" and instantly became my 'hero' it was not till many year later [at least 40] before I found out why, and today it would be called cheating, however anything went back in those formula Libra day's. and Moss's mechanic is now credited with being the inventor of the hand cut racing tyre's, and that why Moss was seemingly able to drive as if he was on rails, and at the time I thought it was shear skill.

Anyway simply saying, I saw the "good old day's" and from the age of 18 participated in the them and there were never more than 3 or 4 truly competitive tin-tops, and money ruled just as it does today.

If Nick Ross really wanted to prove to everybody that he is a true and worthy New Zealand champion, then he has the money to easily afford to compete in a V8 Supertourer without even having to purchase one. I very much doubt that we will ever see that day, even if I offered to fund it!

[promax]

is ST considered a worthy championship? 7 cars plus Mitch.. who was just there to make up the numbers. really?

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

The result of 'letting the market decide' in a country as small as ours is painfully apparent

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by promax

is ST considered a worthy championship? 7 cars plus Mitch.. who was just there to make up the numbers. really?

Let's be blunt. You are correct, 7 plus one does not a championship make. 5 plus a whole other class less so.
One had numbers and lost them. One never had the numbers to start with.

If ST were to burst into flames I can't see any of those competitors buying/leasing/running a TLX.
They'd go fishing or something.
So TLX would still be a dismal picking hiding among a feild of clapped out old TLs

The fact that the governing body props TLX up is a disgrace.

How would I 'fix' things?
For a start, I'd grow some balls and recognise a maximum of 5 classes(car groups) a year as having a New Zealand Champion. I'd stop sanctioning every pathetic group of four car owners and their dog and create categories that embrace a number of existing classes.

They do it with single seaters. You grandfather the rules and run what you brung.

Create a grouping of ST, TLX, 997 Porsche as your biggest fastest category.
I've included the Porsche because they are fast enough to play along.
ST and TLX claim to achieving the same aim. Lump them together and stop your crying if one is faster than the other.

A feeder saloon class to that will be necessary. Argue amongst yourself what would fit there. Being slower they would be somewhat less expensive to run and a little easier to drive

A one make kindergarten series is also required. Be honest and make it clear that what that is, will change every 3-4 seasons. Cheap to buy, affordable (hopefully) to put panels on and destined for club racing some time very soon.

Single seaters have TRS as the premium category. Just leave it alone and be glad it's there.

FFord is the only logical entry level single seater category because of the number of existing chassis. If you want to modernise the engine but still retain the existing competitors go the route of the USA with the Honda Fit

Everybody else can race for chocolate fish. No-one is watching or gives a toss. The endless classes and 'everyone wins a prize' is pure crap.
If five blokes with Chery J3's get over aroused and want to race among themselves they can. They can have a happy circle gathering at the end of the day and award each other prizes if they like. BUT DON'T LEGITIMISE THEM!

Dilution is killing the sport.

All the selfish moaners who complain that there is too much fuss made about the sport at the top level miss the point that people need something to aspire to.
Every kid playing ripper rugby is a future All Black and every wee fella in a Kadet kart is doing to be future world champion.

Lots of people want to play. No one wants to be beaten.
News alert - thats not sport, it's theatre. And poor quality at that

[promax]

never said the TLX class was 'worthy' either. seems to be the common response anytime something is deemed as being negative towards ST. as for the rest of your post.... the same exact thing has been posted many times.. by a number of different members. hardly news or new.

[NZSTfan]

Yes Icarus_nz that does sound sensible.
But we don't seem to have sensible people leading and guiding the sport. Therein lies the issue.
I'd personally like to see people like you step in and provide a new type of leadership, but i doubt thats attractive to you....and who would blame you?

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by promax

never said the TLX class was 'worthy' either. seems to be the common response anytime something is deemed as being negative towards ST. as for the rest of your post.... the same exact thing has been posted many times.. by a number of different members. hardly news or new.

My key point is that the whole sport is unhealthy.
Historically you've made your class preference clear so reinforcing the fact that neither category is in good shape is pertinent.

And you're right. I haven't said anything new. Plenty of folks are thinking 'what can be done?'
It is the lack of clear management or direction from the governing body that makes my blood boil.


As for new blood? Good luck with that. The current structure is geared against anything other than the status quo.

Unfortunately nothing new there either

Shayne Harris, Brian Budd. Where are you?
What are you doing? Where are your balls?

[Southern Man]

I understand that the door is still wide open for ST and the NZV8 groups to race together but while one party wishes to play the other still does not want to.

Now I know that you can lead a horse to water and that you can not make it drink, however you can also shoot the bugger and feed it to the dogs too.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I understand that the door is still wide open for ST and the NZV8 groups to race together but while one party wishes to play the other still does not want to.

Now I know that you can lead a horse to water and that you can not make it drink, however you can also shoot the bugger and feed it to the dogs too.

Carl, I am pleased to be able to advise you that all 8 ST teams at Hampton Down's voted to invite the TLX cars to race in the same race as the ST's, however, Mr Ian Booth appears to be doing his level best to put a spoke in that wheel.

Meanwhile unbelievable but true, MSNZ is insisting that the NZV8's run at Pukekohe 2 weeks after the V8ST's!

[promax]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I understand that the door is still wide open for ST and the NZV8 groups to race together but while one party wishes to play the other still does not want to.

Now I know that you can lead a horse to water and that you can not make it drink, however you can also shoot the bugger and feed it to the dogs too.

it might be beyond the bullet stage.

[GT 86]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Carl, I am pleased to be able to advise you that all 8 ST teams at Hampton Down's voted to invite the TLX cars to race in the same race as the ST's, however, Mr Ian Booth appears to be doing his level best to put a spoke in that wheel.

Meanwhile unbelievable but true, MSNZ is insisting that the NZV8's run at Pukekohe 2 weeks after the V8ST's!

I hear that Harris and Budd aren't talking to each other much these days. Mark, correct me if im wrong, I understand you are involved in a civil case against them plus a commerce commission case and one of these guys has finally woken up they are in the **** and starting blaming the other guy. Very soon we will all find out how much these guys have screwed up and how much it will cost the sport and you the member...........again.

That's what happened when you have dads army run the company!

Could this finally be the straw that broke the camels back!

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Carl, I am pleased to be able to advise you that all 8 ST teams at Hampton Down's voted to invite the TLX cars to race in the same race as the ST's, however, Mr Ian Booth appears to be doing his level best to put a spoke in that wheel.

Meanwhile unbelievable but true, MSNZ is insisting that the NZV8's run at Pukekohe 2 weeks after the V8ST's!

Wow!! So the complete opposite of what Ian Booth was saying in an interview with tracktorque.nz. In the interview he makes out that nzv8s are the good guys and the door is wide open for ST to race with them. He also wanted one or two STs to join them at the NZGP where some sort of fiddling would occur (detuning i imagine.) to make them comparable to a TLX. Probably so the Bargs-Ross tussle can still go on.
But your saying that all 8 ST teams at the first sprint race agreed to have TLX there and they refused? Now that is intriguing and telling at the same time. I have a few ideas as to why. Pity that Mike Marsden did not say that in the interview with Shaun, as it would have shown just how accomodating V8ST have tried to be. I urge everyone to listen to the interview that is on tracktorque.nz.

As for wanting nzv8tc to race at Puke 2 weeks after is a puzzle to me. Why would MSNZ want that and why are they directing their lil baby like this?

On another note, does anyone know which v8 classes are on the undercard for supercars in November?

Stu

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Carl, I am pleased to be able to advise you that all 8 ST teams at Hampton Down's voted to invite the TLX cars to race in the same race as the ST's, however, Mr Ian Booth appears to be doing his level best to put a spoke in that wheel.

Meanwhile unbelievable but true, MSNZ is insisting that the NZV8's run at Pukekohe 2 weeks after the V8ST's!

Was this invite from ST management or just the 8 teams at Hampton Downs. There is a difference.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by GT 86

I hear that Harris and Budd aren't talking to each other much these days. Mark, correct me if im wrong, I understand you are involved in a civil case against them plus a commerce commission case and one of these guys has finally woken up they are in the **** and starting blaming the other guy. Very soon we will all find out how much these guys have screwed up and how much it will cost the sport and you the member...........again.

That's what happened when you have dads army run the company!

Could this finally be the straw that broke the camels back!

I am personally not suing MSNZ, however, I can confirm that the original V8 Supertourers Limited Company [not Ray Noonen's V8 Supertourer's 2013 Limited] has taken legal action against MSNZ, Brian Budd, and Martin Fine, under the provision of the NZ Commerce Act for what we the directors and shareholder's of V8ST claim are willful and continuing breaches of two separate provision's of the Commerce Act.