[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[PhilipR]

I am interested to see how this will all develop for Mclaren and other teams.
So far we have seen cars mostly in Bahrain and I wonder if there will be massive swings in performance based on individual tracks. Might be that in Jeddah the Mclaren just works and it is towards the front. Bahrain has a lot of heavy braking and acceleration zones...Jeddah is more flowing so cars might behave differently
I would wait until Barcelona to pass final judgement on the cars.

[steve_r]

Just goes to show that testing lap times mean very little, they were right at the top in Barcelona.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Just goes to show that testing lap times mean very little, they were right at the top in Barcelona.

Different track with very different flow and corner types, doesn't have the preponderance of heavy braking / slow corners that Bahrain has - plus of course they had problems during the Bahrain test so with very little running may not have identified their grip issues.

McLaren struggled in the Bahrain test and continued that into the Bahrain race, so in that instance, testing was a reasonable indicator.

Starting to think that the first 5-10 races this year are potentially going to have a lot of swings and roundabouts as teams get their cars sorted and arrive at some tracks only to find that their car is a pig or a jet there compared to previous tracks.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Starting to think that the first 5-10 races this year are potentially going to have a lot of swings and roundabouts as teams get their cars sorted and arrive at some tracks only to find that their car is a pig or a jet there compared to previous tracks.

Wouldn't that be good. A right old mix-up!

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Wouldn't that be good. A right old mix-up!

Yep - genuinely like the good old days, back when the race could be anyone’s (at least until they got to the track & started running).

[S griffin]

I think we will see a pecking order soon, Merc should get on top of their car in due time. But we should see most teams having their day in the sun

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Just goes to show that testing lap times mean very little, they were right at the top in Barcelona.

Anybody remember MP4-18....

[chunterer]

Janes Key is a great designer so I reclon he'll either unlock or alter what is required fairly quickly.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Janes Key is a great designer so I reclon he'll either unlock or alter what is required fairly quickly.

Perhaps, but then why did he build a dud car out of the box?

Two points are noteworthy:
- the 2018 McLaren was fixed in 2019 by Pat Fry not James Key, Key just iterated it after that point
- now we are hearing all the excuses about McLaren having an outdated wind tunnel and outdated simulator

Why didn't we (1) hear about the outdated facilities before, (2) why didn't McLaren forge an alliance with Alpine-Renault to share the costs of more modern facilities and tools to be shared between the two frugal (or in McLaren's case underfunded & indebted) operations (e.g., shared gearbox, shared suspension, shared wind tunnel, shared simulator, just like Red Bull & AlphaTauri or Ferrari & HAAS)?

Instead McLaren made a strange decision to switch from Renault to Mercedes where Aston Martin is already the B-team, instead of aligning as Alpine's B-team/partner-team:

Andreas Seidl:

I can’t talk specifically about the Haas and Ferrari cars, for example, but it’s no secret that these collaborations allowed within the rules are a concern for us.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" I say!

As much as people may point to McLaren-Mercedes being a top team between 1998 and 2012 with facilities that were up-to-date for those eras, it must be recalled that was heavily funded by Mercedes-Benz, who of course now fund their own team. [And of course McLaren were funded by Marlboro before that etc, who then went to Ferrari.]

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Perhaps, but then why did he build a dud car out of the box?

Do we know that for sure after some testing and one race?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do we know that for sure after some testing and one race?

No we don't. I would be surprised if McLaren join Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes in contending for the WCC and WDC though...

Seidl was saying they were 1s/lap off 3rd-best Mercedes, nevermind McLaren's gap to the leaders..

It's quite possible the McLaren could overhaul Alpine, HAAS and Alfa Romeo I suppose, but they are certainly starting a long way behind and those teams will also improve.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do we know that for sure after some testing and one race?

Bit early to call it, I agree!

[AndreasDavour]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Instead McLaren made a strange decision to switch from Renault to Mercedes where Aston Martin is already the B-team, instead of aligning as Alpine's B-team/partner-team

Well. Renault did not move forward even after many years of talking, and the Merc PU was 1.5 sec faster than the opposition. I think it made total sense not to stick with Renault. Also, remember that McLaren just like Williams pride themselves of being a real constructor, like Williams. They would probably not consider being a "B team" palatable.



I also think it has been clear for some years now that Aston does not have the organization in place to be pulled along by Merc. They are too good at shooting themselves in the foot, so McLaren probably felt they could be sure to beat them regardless. That's a view I personally share as well.

[Beau2]

No. No they can not.

[AndreasDavour]

Well, not with this car. But I do think they will get a handle on it. I am doubtful Aston will ever get a handle on much of anything.

[GTRMagic]

Interesting to read in one of the post race reviews that Mr Norris had trouble keeping up with a Haas in a straight line... is the Haas slippery or is the McLaren a housebrick? Or is the customer Benz really that poor?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Interesting to read in one of the post race reviews that Mr Norris had trouble keeping up with a Haas in a straight line... is the Haas slippery or is the McLaren a housebrick? Or is the customer Benz really that poor?

I think the McLaren has some inherent weaknesses and they are ones the Haas does not have.
Barcelona was a trial run but the car seemed to do quite well and dint have the aero induced gulping and spitting the others had or not to the same degree.

But there are other issues and drag is one of them.
The car seems balanced and has good feel but not enough 'grip' which means what? Not enough downforce/aero induced grip?
Or a mechanical problem?

The MCL35 was poor in slow corners too, as is this car.
So is their wind tunnel/aero research giving them false indicators.
They want a better aero facility and have acknowledged that.
Barcelona is fast and flowing or most of it, and much smoother than Bahrain. Jeddah stacked up on the high speed stuff too and is relatively smooth so is this partly a track issue or an issue that shows up on tracks with heavy breaking and slow corners?
What will Baku be like?

This is what is in their laps to deal with but Haas had the benefit of Ferrari research and outcomes and look how balanced their car is and how much more 'all round' it is.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The MCL35 was poor in slow corners too, as is this car.
So is their wind tunnel/aero research giving them false indicators.

The Toyota wind tunnel they use can only test a car in a straight line. So that would explain why the McLaren is not bad in fast corners (small slip angle) but loses downforce in slow corners (large slip angle).

The more modern wind tunnels have big turn tables to rotate the entire rolling road belt and test the car in yaw.

Edit - Of course working the tyres mechanically with the suspension is important in slow corners (and it seems like the McLaren may not be great on that front either), but the downforce (a multiplier of mechanical grip) is still important in slow corners too. That's why everyone puts on big wings at Monaco after all.

[Sodemo]

That bit often confused me, because in the same breath, people call (called?) Silverstone a high downforce track, yet the track traits couldn't be more different to Monaco?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

That bit often confused me, because in the same breath, people call (called?) Silverstone a high downforce track, yet the track traits couldn't be more different to Monaco?

It comes from identifying where most of the lap time comes from on a circuit.

At Monaco, there are very few straights and none of them are long enough to gain any time from a high top speed. So high down force means your cornering speeds are as high as possible.
At Silverstone, the high speed corners require down force, where lap time is won and lost.

In grouping tracks, some examples:
Hungary, Imola, Singapore, Spain and Monaco are all examples of high down force tracks, with relatively short straights and lots of turns putting a greater emphasis on cornering speed.

Tracks like Silverstone and Spa feature high down force sequences that can see the drivers pulling up to 6G in some cases. However the long straights and high-speed corners on these sectors mean that power still has a big influence on the pecking order.

Power tracks with long straights include Russia, Mexico, Canada, Baku, Monza and Austria.

[GTRMagic]

With the Australian Grand Prix next weekend being a full sellout (Saturday and Sunday you cant get tix.. apparently), here's hoping Mr Ricciardo isnt too distracted by media and local sponsor commitments (he is personally supported by Optus/Singtel and is on LinkedIn as their Chief of Optimism..) to do a good job behind the wheel...

[chavez]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

With the Australian Grand Prix next weekend being a full sellout (Saturday and Sunday you cant get tix.. apparently), here's hoping Mr Ricciardo isnt too distracted by media and local sponsor commitments (he is personally supported by Optus/Singtel and is on LinkedIn as their Chief of Optimism..) to do a good job behind the wheel...

Sadly, a good job would be making Q2, followed by a top 12 finish.

[Aysedasi]

He also needs to compete with his team mate too....

[BTCC frog]

Fun fact:

In 2021, Lando Norris finished as the top driver from outside the big three teams (including Ferrari) in 8 of the first 10 races, and then in 0 of the last 12.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Fun fact:

In 2021, Lando Norris finished as the top driver from outside the big three teams (including Ferrari) in 8 of the first 10 races, and then in 0 of the last 12.

He finished 2nd at Monza.